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Author Topic: What am I looking here???  (Read 1290 times)

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Capt.Jim

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What am I looking here???
« on: November 29, 2016, 09:06:29 PM »

Is this the one so called fire hazard and needs to be upgraded????


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Capt. Jim Davis
KISMET '87 C34 - Hull #369 - Fin Keel

KWKloeber

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Re: What am I looking here???
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2016, 09:27:53 PM »

that's called typical catalina/bristol/seaward wiring.  LOL!  (actually NOT funny, but sad.)   

That could certainly be a source of an overcurrent condition, but not the (non ABYC compliant) Universal Motor's OEM harness situation to which I was referring  -- you have a HOT (if battery selector is on) 10 awg wire going to the panel, with about 800 amps of current behind it and NO overcurrent protection on that wire.  Can you say "chafe," followed by "glowing filament," followed by "FIRE"?

Q?s:
  • do you have a voltmeter or ammeter?
  • behind the panel do you have an 8 pin (I coined "Gummy Bear") plug on that harness?
  • do you have the 8 pin plug at the engine end of the harness?

kk
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 09:32:50 PM by KWKloeber »
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Capt.Jim

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Re: What am I looking here???
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2016, 09:56:55 PM »

that's called typical catalina/bristol/seaward wiring.  LOL!  (actually NOT funny, but sad.)   

That could certainly be a source of an overcurrent condition, but not the (non ABYC compliant) Universal Motor's OEM harness situation to which I was referring  -- you have a HOT (if battery selector is on) 10 awg wire going to the panel, with about 800 amps of current behind it and NO overcurrent protection on that wire.  Can you say "chafe," followed by "glowing filament," followed by "FIRE"?

Q?s:
  • do you have a voltmeter or ammeter?
  • behind the panel do you have an 8 pin (I coined "Gummy Bear") plug on that harness?
  • do you have the 8 pin plug at the engine end of the harness?

kk

LOL & SAD :cry4`

1) Ammeter
2) Have no clue; I'll check tomorrow !
3) Have no clue; I'll check tomorrow !
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Capt. Jim Davis
KISMET '87 C34 - Hull #369 - Fin Keel

Stu Jackson

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Re: What am I looking here???
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2016, 11:14:37 PM »

Jim,

Now is the time for you to delve into the Tech wiki.

Specifically, because you have an ammeter, this one, in the wiki Electrical section:

http://c34.org/wikiwp/?rdp_we_resource=http%3A%2F%2Fc34.org%2Fwiki%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3DEngine_Harness_Upgrade

The ammeter should be replaced with a voltmeter.  the ammeter requires all your charging current to run up to the cockpit panel and then back down to the batteries, in relatively tiny wire, to say nothing about the poor connectors.  There's tons of material about this necessary correction.  A search on ammeters would be a start, then ask away.
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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Capt.Jim

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Re: What am I looking here???
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2016, 11:23:48 PM »

Thanks Stu. I got that part from endless reading of the great material over here. The only issue "the more I read the more confused I get"  :?

Can this FIRE DANGER issue simply eliminated by the removal of the thin wire between the engine and the ammeter?

I mean if the current is causing all the problems, then, if there's no wire connecting these two there won't be a current around to worry about. Isn't it?

Yes there will be a non functioning ammeter but at this point what i understand is that a "non functioning ammeter is preferred to have a functioning but rather risky one may cause your boat to go down in flames" ...

By all means I don't mind to upgrade to a voltmeter but in an emergency as of tomorrow morning I can stop the risk by eliminating the connection between the ammeter and the engine. Correct?
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Capt. Jim Davis
KISMET '87 C34 - Hull #369 - Fin Keel

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Re: What am I looking here???
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2016, 11:31:51 PM »

jim,

you need to power the panel (gauges, preheat, lights, starter solenoid, blower) either way (w or w/o the ammeter.)  It's the power wire that is the overcurrent hazard.  it DOESN'T MATTER what current you 'normally' have going thru it (it will technically handle a realistic charge current, tho with voltage loss.)  It's the mere fact that you have an UNPROTECTED wire with large amperage storage batteries behind it that is THAT ONE PARTICULAR hazard (ie, there's other hazards.)  Removing the ammeter has to do w/ providing better charging and (not) melting the gummy bear plug w/ the charge current. 

Welcome to old sailboat ownership.

search the forum also -- I have RANTS on there about the harness "upgrade" that is BOTH non-abyc compliant AND does not solve the fire hazard problem, NOR correct much of the overall bad OEM harness in the first place.  All that for close to 200 bucks. 

kk
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 11:42:02 PM by KWKloeber »
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Capt.Jim

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Re: What am I looking here???
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2016, 12:44:53 AM »

jim,

you need to power the panel (gauges, preheat, lights, starter solenoid, blower) either way (w or w/o the ammeter.)  It's the power wire that is the overcurrent hazard.  it DOESN'T MATTER what current you 'normally' have going thru it (it will technically handle a realistic charge current, tho with voltage loss.)  It's the mere fact that you have an UNPROTECTED wire with large amperage storage batteries behind it that is THAT ONE PARTICULAR hazard (ie, there's other hazards.)  Removing the ammeter has to do w/ providing better charging and (not) melting the gummy bear plug w/ the charge current. 

Welcome to old sailboat ownership.

search the forum also -- I have RANTS on there about the harness "upgrade" that is BOTH non-abyc compliant AND does not solve the fire hazard problem, NOR correct much of the overall bad OEM harness in the first place.  All that for close to 200 bucks. 

kk

Uh-huh! Now it makes sense...
Hey at least RANTing is free!

Read mine on another thread regarding the boatyards...

At this point I don't really care. I wish there was a "buy this crap, remove and throw away the old one and plug this one in, ta da you're done" kind of solution... I don't care if it was costing $1000...

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Capt. Jim Davis
KISMET '87 C34 - Hull #369 - Fin Keel

KWKloeber

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Re: What am I looking here???
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2016, 12:52:23 AM »

well essentially there is, or will be soon. I'm developing a "kit" (using a 1984 M-25 owner as a guinea pig) with a few options to essentially offer a DIY replace for the bad stuff. 

Or Priority Mail me your panel and harness and an ABYC compliant actual "marine grade" one will magically appear on your doorstep.

pm me.
-kk
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Stu Jackson

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Re: What am I looking here???
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2016, 07:03:12 AM »



1.  The only issue "the more I read the more confused I get"  :?

2.  Can this FIRE DANGER issue simply eliminated by the removal of the thin wire between the engine and the ammeter?

<SNIP>

3.   By all means I don't mind to upgrade to a voltmeter but in an emergency as of tomorrow morning I can stop the risk by eliminating the connection between the ammeter and the engine. Correct?

Jim,

1.  Take a deep breath.  We all understand your frustration over information overload, but you must break this down into its individual components.  I think we've done a pretty good job of explaining that in the Critical Upgrades, but let's try this again:  a)  ammeter requires all current to go through it;  b)  small wire doing that;  c)  alternator output goes through that wire and poor connectors; Ken's rant about lack of fusing the power to the cockpit panel altogether

2.  Partly.  The fire danger lies in the connectors between the wiring both at the engine end and behind the cockpit panel, which is why Ken asked about that (unclear from your photo).  In ADDITION to the gummy bear connectors, there is the issue of running the alternator output (AO) through the small wires as well as through those lousy connectors.

3.  Nope, because you'd be interrupting your AO and then possibly frying the diodes on the alternator.  You must always have the AO, uninterrupted when the alternator is running,  going to a battery. 

« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 07:16:17 AM by Stu Jackson »
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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Ron Hill

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Re: What am I looking here???
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2016, 02:08:23 PM »

Capt. Jim : You have A lot of reading to do !!
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KWKloeber

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Re: What am I looking here???
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2016, 03:45:28 PM »


Thanks Stu. I got that part from endless reading of the great material over here. The only issue "the more I read the more confused I get"  :?


Jim

Sometimes I think "everyone knows as much as everyone else" about the basics, but not necessarily about "the nuances."  I know that's incorrect, but....

So Jim as a baseline ....  are you "up on" precisely what the panel and harness wiring accomplishes?  i.e., the down and dirty purpose(s) of the engine/panel wiring scheme as a whole on the M-25/XP/XPA?  I started a "harness primer" (which I need time to finalize, but....)

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8406.msg59093.html#msg59093
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8406.msg59222.html#msg59222

-ken
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

mark_53

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Re: What am I looking here???
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2016, 04:56:38 PM »

Is this the one so called fire hazard and needs to be upgraded????

Kind of looks like my panel.  Not unusual considering it's been in a marine environment for 29 years.  Fortunately, electricity doesn't care what it looks like.  Is something not functioning?  Looks to me as if it's had some rewiring done but I'm sure not compliant with the latest standards. As a practical matter, I would inspect for secure connections and good wire insulation (no burn through), over time you will learn the circuitry as things need to be replaced.  Keep power off when not on the boat and keep your fire extinguisher handy.  If you smell smoke, turn off electrical power and head to port or call for a tow. I'd bet the good majority of boats out there have similar looking wiring.  Stuff gets old and falls apart and we all don't have the expertise, time or resources to keep compliant so you have to be prepared for emergency situations. This forum has loads of information to help you, some would say to much information so you have to separate the wheat from the chaff.  Sailing is not like driving on the freeway and if something goes wrong, you pull over and call a repair shop.  Your life depends on your contingency planning.  Something WILL go wrong.
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