Silly Question from perspective owner

notallthere · September 06, 2016, 03:06:01 PM

Hi everyone. My wife and I are currently searching for the right C-34 for us here in Southern California. We are both longtime dinghy racers (and I sail professionally still). My silly question is has anyone ever converted a Catalina 34 to a tiller? I know they are well balanced as is, and we are looking at the Mark 1's which already have the top of the rudder post in the cockpit. It seems like it would make for more space in the cockpit and we are both more comfortable with tiller steering.

Just curious if anyone has done this or what.

Mike and Joanne Stimmler · September 06, 2016, 03:36:20 PM

Not silly at all. Have you sailed a C34? I think you should try the wheel out for a while and I bet you will fall in love with wheel steering. I have had guests that had always used a tiller and were a little confused at first but soon fell in love with the wheel. Try it, you'll like it.

Noah · September 06, 2016, 05:09:51 PM

Hmmm? Interesting thought. Seems like a tiller would make the "smallish/narrow" cockpit even smaller? Plus, your compass and any pedestal mounted electronics would need a rethink. You would also need a longer rudder post too, I would guess. Perhaps a chat with Catalina (Jerry Douglas) might shed light on the pluses/minuses/challenges of this conversion?

Jim Hardesty · September 06, 2016, 05:59:55 PM

The emergency steering is a tiller so it should work. I'm sure some work would be needed moving everything from the pedestal. FWIW I've steered a 165' boat with a tiller, the Brig Niagara. It's a really big tiller.
I think the big disadvantage is that it would really drop the resale value. Most people want a wheel. Even on small boats.
Jim

Noah · September 06, 2016, 06:40:25 PM

Jim- "should work" in concept, but in practicality-- perhaps another story. Emergency steering is quite different than ideal steering. Lot's of possible pitfallls...

notallthere · September 07, 2016, 10:49:33 AM

Yeah, will for sure plan on sailing it as is for a while. I suspect we would get used to the wheel. Just curious if anyone has done it. Did not think of the resale value, that is a very good point!

Thanks

KWKloeber · September 07, 2016, 01:10:04 PM

Quote
You would also need a longer rudder post too, I would guess. Perhaps a chat with Catalina (Jerry Douglas) might shed light on the pluses/minuses/challenges of this conversion?

The tiller head would just take the place of the emergency tiller cap -- longer rudder stock not needed. In fact that's exactly the reverse of the C-30's -- the MK-1 OE tiller cap is replaced with the emergency cap as way back when owners/dealers installed wheel steering. The tiller cap could be left in place but it becomes a flesh tearing ankle/calf biter. Unfornately the C30 and C34 stocks are different diameters otherwise there's used C-30 tiller heads to be had out there.

-kk

Ron Hill · September 07, 2016, 01:57:56 PM

Not all : where the till comes up in the cockpit would make it almost impossible to add a tiller. it would wipe out most of the cockpit.

If you've haven't tried to use the emergency tiller you are in for a surprise!!!! As the name implies it is used in an EMERGENCY. The first thing one should do is take the wheel off so you could get a "little" better control - it's not a fun item to use.

A few thoughts

Noah · September 07, 2016, 02:06:54 PM

I agree with Ron. Looks like it would have to be a rather small/lightweight wooden tiller set up to fit within the constraints of the cockpit molded inset around the emergency tiller head. May be different on the C30.

Stephen Butler · September 07, 2016, 02:59:52 PM

Just to second Ron Hills comment, having used the emergency tiller in an emergency situation, it is not a fun exercise. Depending on the situation, which in our case did not give enough time to dismount the wheel, we had to quickly lash the center of a line to the short emergency tiller, and then run each end over to the cockpit sides, to get some semblance of control. We kept the line on the emergency tiller for a few years afterward, but of course, never had a situation to use it again. We were certainly glad to have the emergency tiller on the one occasion, but it really is for very quick and very brief use. Hope this helps.

KWKloeber · September 07, 2016, 03:27:50 PM

Quote from: Stephen Butler on September 07, 2016, 02:59:52 PM
Just to second Ron Hills comment, having used the emergency tiller in an emergency situation, it is not a fun exercise. Depending on the situation, which in our case did not give enough time to dismount the wheel, we had to quickly lash the center of a line to the short emergency tiller, and then run each end over to the cockpit sides, to get some semblance of control. We kept the line on the emergency tiller for a few years afterward, but of course, never had a situation to use it again. We were certainly glad to have the emergency tiller on the one occasion, but it really is for very quick and very brief use. Hope this helps.

That begs the question whether, to be ready for worst-case emergency use it would make sense to have lines on it and blocks fastenable somehow/somewhere to continue the lines to the winches? hmmmmmmmm. I have secondaries nearly in line with the helm ... easy for me to do.

-kk

KWKloeber · September 07, 2016, 03:33:36 PM

Quote from: Noah on September 07, 2016, 02:06:54 PM
I agree with Ron. Looks like it would have to be a rather small/lightweight wooden tiller set up to fit within the constraints of the cockpit molded inset around the emergency tiller head. May be different on the C30.

it would be tight, but more for lateral movement -- and a little f'glass work might be beneficial to shave off the corners of the pocket to obtain more radial travel. As far as how, I'd fashion another stainless cap out of pipe the same diameter as the emergency head and build (weld up) the rudder hinge atop that. They guy who built my "back porch" out of my existing stern rail could do it. The head would be similar to but heftier than:

-kk

pablosgirl · September 07, 2016, 07:21:55 PM

Hi KK,

I am with you. I much prefer tiller steering. You have a much better feel for the effect of wind and water on the boat. This comes from 40 years of dingy and keel boat racing.

I see no major problems with replacing the wheel with a tiller on a c34 mk1 boat. There will be some expense involved. As for the effect on resale value, you could retain the wheel equipment to be returned to the boat prior to putting it on the market.

You would want to remove the emergency tiller cap and replace it with one like you posted. The reason the emergency tiller is so hard to use is its length is limited by the wheel pedestal. A tiller is like a lever. The longer the length the greater the mechanical advantage. The diameter of the wheel and the quadrant provide the mechanical advantage in a pedestal steering system.

Some of the things you will want to consider in the design of the new tiller and fitting are as follows. You will want the tiller to be able to be tilted into a vertical position while at anchor to free up its space. To get the full stop-to-stop ruder turn radius you will want a "S" shaped tiller for two reasons. One, to place the tiller end at a comfortable height when seated in the cockpit to steer. The other is to clear the aft end of the cockpit seats. Catalina did you a favor by notching the inboard ends of the seats to provide space for the wheel. These notches will provide the turn radius you will need to get the full range of rudder movement. You will want the lower part of the tiller to clear the seat notches. The tiller could be made from laminating wood strips to get the desired shape or you could go the more utilitarian route and have it mode from SS and using right angles for the two bends required ( one to clear the aft end of the seats and the other to get the desired tiller height.

You will probably have to go to a bulkhead mounted compas to replace the pedestal compass. Likewise your other instruments will have to be bulkhead mounted as well. The tiller will move you closer to the bulkhead so reading the compass should not be a problem.

Our previous boat was a 88' Hunter 26.5 with a tiller setup very similar to what you are tiring to achieve. I would look one up and it may give you some ideas.

I see a major advantage to a tiller steered 34 as to be able to sit on top of the seat combing (further out board and further forward) to see the jib teltails better.

Another consideration is how much all this will cost. Your boat your choice.

Paul

Noah · September 07, 2016, 08:05:23 PM

Everyone-the ability to travel stop-to-stop with a substantial tiller with the current fiberglass notch constriction impediment concerns me and the height, geometry, angle of the tiller to facilitate comfortable steering height concerns me; hence my comments about lengthening the rudder post. These are just unscientific observation from my office desk chair...on a subject I have not considered before, since I enjoy my wheel steering--so treat it with the proverbial grain of salt. Also, consider your tiller autopilot options/availability and connection points, too.

Roc · September 08, 2016, 05:15:38 AM

I once had to use the emergency tiller when the cable from the quadrant became disengaged. Steering with the tiller was extremely difficult. I was glad I didn't have to do this for all too long in order to get to a marina to make the repair. Not sure if a longer tiller would have helped, or maybe the weight of the C34 does not lend itself to tiller steering.