HELP !! No Fuel comming out of my M35B Injection Pump -Two months at the dock

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ellispe

My Fellow 34 Brother's and sisters. I come to you for help in a time of shear desperation. Two months ago a friend overheated the engine.  We noticed, the engine was losing coolant as we put food die in the coolant and it never ended up in the bilge. It was determined that it must be a leak in the heat exchange. I took it as a sign of issues to come and replaced every piece of the cooling system including both water pumps and hoses.  A month later the engine is back together but we were still losing coolant.  Turns out, my Exhaust manifold had a leak between the Coolant and the exhaust side and was blowing my Fresh water out the exhaust pipe.

So now two months sitting at the dock, the new manifold is on (hard to find part. I go to start the engine and nothing.  After an extensive look at all the systems I finally crack the hard fuel lines at the Injection pump and notice no fuel is coming out.   I have a friend turn the key to start the fuel lift pump and I bleed a full cup of Diesel using the bleed screw at the injector pump.  Based on this, I think I would be safe saying that fuel is getting to the injector pump.

My questions are :

Is the injector pump mechanical, or does is somehow rely on engine compression ? .
The engine was starting after the overheat and before we did all the work two months so why all of a sudden is It not working ?
Are there any things that I can adjust on the fuel injection pump ?

Any help would be appreciated

Peter Ellis
Ellis Island II
2005 Catalina MK II   Universal M35B


KWKloeber

I'll lament again.

Case in point to troubleshoot, troubleshoot, troubleshoot, before replacing.  Replacing get expensive real quick and doesn't identify the root cause(s.)  You probably blew a gasket on the exhaust manifold or exhaust flange or warped it and was leaking coolant. A "relatively simple" fix.

The IP is mechanical, driven by the fuel camshaft.
There's no DIY adjusting on the IP - it's a pro job to do anything except remove it.  The pump is common and can be taken to nearly any diesel shop to test.

Need more info.   Could be from different causes and might be beyond DIY ability to troubleshoot.  That said, have you fully bled the lines? Bled a cup, and then what?  No more fuel?  What's it like - strong stream, fluffy, air, foam?  Lift pump is working, or just the key is on and gravity fed?  36B requires oil pressure for the lift pump to run (unless you rewired as Ron did.)  Are you pumping (bypassing) fuel into the crankcase?  Maybe there's more if you search the forum and TW.

Do you have a 35B Service Manual - I can email it (6mb.)

Good luck with 'er.

kk


Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

ellispe

KK,

Many thanks for the info.  First off, as for the Exhaust manifold, turned out to be a hole in the aluminum between the fresh water and the exhaust port formed by electrolysis.  We had to put a camera in the manifold and put Fresh water in the top to see it.  Mechanic at the marina had never seen anything like it.  As for expensive parts, I am already into this fix for well over $ 2,000.00 so I am not happy.

For a test, I hardwired the lift pump and let it run for a few min.  I then went to the Injector pump and opened the bleed screw.  I let 16 oz of fuel poor into a cup and it came out fast. While the pump was still going, I tightened the bleed screw.  I would assume that I got any air out of the system and there seems to be no shortage of fuel to the injector pump.  When I crank the engine, I do not see fuel coming out of the top of any of the 4 fuel ports on top of the injector pump.   The strange thing is this worked before we started the cooling fixes so I can't figure why it does not work now.  The strange thing is that there is NO fuel at all coming out of any of the 4 injector lines.  Any thoughts are greatly appreciated !!!!

As for pulling the injector pump out is this a hard task ?  Thanks again........


KWKloeber

OK Ellipse, the addl info helps clarify. 

I'm not sure on the 5B IP if the fuel can bypass to return back to the tank?  Did you ck the return line for flow?

I removed the IP on my M-25 years ago to have it tested, wasn't a big deal,  Idd think the B-series engine Service Manual would cover the procedure. 

ken
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

KWKloeber

Oh jbtw,

Galvanic corrosion is what we find on boats - nothing to do with the process of electrolysis (e.g., passing a current to separate H2O into (2) H and (1) O.)

cheers
kk
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Ron Hill

Peter : I wrote a Mainsheet tech note article on removing and replacing the injection pump on an M25XP engine .  The procedure should be the same for your M35BC engine.

You can take that IP to a diesel shop and they can rebuild it.  As I mentioned in the article I rebuilt the pump rather than replacing it with a new pump.  I did that so the timing would remain the same.  As Ken said anything else beside removing and reinstalling an injection pump, especially changing the timing shims should be left to a REAL PRO!!! 

A thought

Ron, Apache #788

ellispe

I did read your post and it was very helpful especially your comments on new vs rebuilt. I am still at a loss on how this would suddenly stop working for all four of the injection outputs.

Robert Mann

Before you did the engine work it ran fine.  So before you  pull out the pump, check something really simple hasn't happened, such as the shut down cable pull isn't stuck in the shutdown position, caused during the removal of a bunch of other parts.  Disconnect the mechanical wire going to the engine shutdown lever and move it manually, try to start without it connected.  (Be careful when you shut it down as you will be reaching past the rotating parts). Most injection pump problems are simple, unless water has set in the pump or dirt has passed through it.  As someone else said you can't adjust anything, the timing can't slip, and many injection shop bills on these types of pumps are questionable. 
Catalina 34 MkII, Indigostar, 2002 no 1622, Tall Rig, M35-BC

KWKloeber

What caused the overheat in the 1st place?

Long shot -- but is your sea water pump turning? Likely not the prob, but could the fuel camshaft be 'idle"?  I have no idea why something would happen after the overheat, but....

see pic

The crankshaft (lower center) drives the idler (center)
The idler drives the
      - valve (upper right) camshaft, which drives
               - the sea water pump (via female fork on end of the cam.)
      - the fuel camshaft (upper left,) which
               - drives the idler shaft (lower left.) 

So, if the sea water pump turns, then the fuel cam **should be** turning.

Did you replace the seawater pump with an Oberdorfer?  If not it's the way to go versus the Sherwood.


Ken
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

ellispe

Loved the picture, many Thanks.   The overheating was caused by a hole in the Exhaust Manifold between the Fresh water side and the exhaust site.  Basically my Fresh water was getting blown out the exhaust pipe.  I talked with the local universal dealer today.  He said that perhaps the oil got polluted with the water.  My oil was not milky but you never know.  He said when the camshaft spins it lubricates the injection pump wit motor oil.  If the oil was bad, then perhaps the pump froze up, or got gunked  during the month that the boat sat idol. 

As suggested I will take a good look at the kill switch tonight to make sure it's not jammed and if I do not find anything will pull the injector pump out, taking care not to disturb the "shims"

KWKloeber

You might peek at the M25/xp service manual - it may have a better description of the removal/install procedure, etc.  The B series manual is pretty sparse.

Ken
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Robert Mann

If you do pull the pump, check the operating "arm" (pump rack control) of the pump moves freely.  The pump is driven by a separate camshaft from the valves and this camshaft pushes the pump plungers upwards, pressurizing the fuel. If water has sat in the cam cavity the pump could be corroded, but I might expect the operating arm not move smoothly if this is the case.  You do need to be careful taking the pump in and then replacing it that you do not damage the linkage.  This will cause at best erratic running and at worse a non governed over speed event (euphemism for a run away).
Catalina 34 MkII, Indigostar, 2002 no 1622, Tall Rig, M35-BC

Ron Hill

Paul : If as your said "all 4 inlets stopped working" is because the pump:
1. isn't getting any fuel    or
2. the pump isn't working

I found that the M25XP manual wasn't much help so I just started taking things off till I could get the pump off.  I was careful not to disturb the shims and took it to a diesel repair where they found the nice shinny interior pump part - crazed.  That's why I could no longer get full power.
I'm sure they can test your pump before they take it apart and let you know what's up. 

My thoughts
Ron, Apache #788

ellispe

I will check the Rack and will be very carful when I take out the pump not to disturb these shims that I have been hearing about.   I was wondering, I am not going to take the Injector pump apart, but is there anything I could use to clean it in case it's gunked up from the outside ?. 

ellispe

UPDATE - I pulled the injection pump.  Did not see any shims, so I am not sure if model has them.  On the side of the pump there was a lever.  It was pushed towards the stop position.  When I tried to push the lever back it was hard to move. Not sure if this should be springy ?.  I can get it to move but it gets stuck when it goes to the right or the left.   I am not sure If this is normal ?  I have attached a picture.