Keels, Tall Rigs, etc.

[Hokie]

Hi,
I live in Newport News, Virginia and I'm looking for a 30 or 34' Catalina to sail on the James River and points beyond but I know very little about the performance of them as I have never been aboard one and I need some guidance from knowledgeable sources. My questions are: tall rig vs. standard, deep fin keel vs. standard, can I purchase a good 34 for $25,000-$30,000, does the 34 have  a noticeably larger cockpit than the 30, what problems should I look for when inspecting, what does the 34 do that the 30 can't  and any other advice you might have. I don't want to race anymore but I do like to go fast from time to time. I really appreciate your help and would like to purchase one soon.

Thanks,
Hokie

[Stu Jackson]

Hi,

Welcome.

Some ideas about why folks bought their C34s are here:  http://www.c34.org/faq-pages/faq.html

There's tons of info on our website.  That's one very good reason alone to buy a C34.

They are NOT similar boats (C30 & C34).  If you have the opportunity to see both of them out of the water you'd see the different underbodies.

From our experience, the C34 is a better sailor, since it was designed much later than the C30s.

The interior of the C30 is great for its size, one of the best.  The aft head on our boats is superior.

Tall rig is for lighter east coast or southern California winds, although folks report having to reef sooner.  Wing keel is based on where you sail, most Chesapeake skippers have them.

The cockpit is bigger on the C34.

There are differences between the Mark Is and Mark IIs (click on C34 Tech wiki at the top of this page and read history and evolution).  Don't know what you're looking at but the that price most likely a Mark I.  Don't know about price, 'cuz it's condition, condition, condition.

Things to look for?  Read the Critical Upgrades topic sticky on this board, 3 or 4 pages of things to look for.  Other than those, and the FAQ items above, is knowledge about engines and check the chainplates.

Good luck, and happy hunting, we'd love to have you with us.

[Hokie]

Thanks Stu! Maybe I can find a local owner who can give me an idea of how much pointing ability I'd lose with a wing keel vs. deep fin. Pointing is important to me but if the wing keel gets me pretty close I'd probably compromise.

Thanks Again,
Hokie

[Stu Jackson]

That "difference in pointing" is so immeasurable as to be a non-issue.

Rick Allen's Painkiller, a wing keel boat, won the cruising division of the San Francisco Cup last year.  There was another wing keel boat and then me in a three boat fleet.

Don't worry about it.

You'd be a lot more pissed off by running aground all the time. 

[Ken Juul]

I keep our boat in Deltaville.  Happy to take you for a sail.  If you ever plan on doing the ICW, the tall rig may not fit under some of the fixed bridges.  Lots of differences in the early Mk1s.  We had to have a walk through transom, that is 1990 or newer.  We also spend alot of time on board so Air Conditioning was a must.  Before you start shopping make a list of must haves, and must not have.  It will help narrow down your search.

[Ron Hill]

Hokie : I seriously doubt that you will find a C34 in "Good" condition with in your low price range!!

oe of the main differences between a C34 and C30 is that for a C34 you need king size sheets for both the V-berth and the aft cabin!!

The other mechanical things can be found in WiKi and critical updates.

A few thoughts

[Hokie]

What about tall rig vs, standard - any appreciable difference there? Also are there any options, rigging, etc. that I should
consider when making a purchase?
Thanks,
Hokie

[Hokie]

I've talked to some brokers in the Chesapeake Bay area and seen pictures of several 34's in the mid to upper 30's that I thought were in good shape and worth considering for purchasing. My basic concerns are osmotic blistering, balsa coring, standing and running rigging, auxiliary and gel coat. We would be using the boat for day cruising, occasional overnighting and entertaining family and friends. Am I just fooling myself and these boats would be more trouble than they're worth and if so what's a good number? Also please know that I realize you're desire to keep the numbers up to help maintain the value of your own boats - I had this problem with a C30 12 years or so ago on the Pagan River.

Thanks,
Hokie

[Noah]

I am a West Coaster and C34s here start at approx. $40k+. Again, condition is "everything." Inspect it carefully, get a professional out-of-water survey and watch him or her carefully. Obtain an engine oil sample analysis as well, if you are a non-mechanic or risk adverse. Blisters? Can't tell until out of the water. Check immediately after haul, before dried out. Depending on severity, they can be, or not be a big deal. C34s are generally pretty blister-problem free compared to some other older brands. Meanwhile, as with any boat, (particularily older ones) the purchase price is just the beginning when it comes to spending money! Good luck!
PS-I LOVE my boat!

[Stu Jackson]

Hokie, I usually don't do detailed analysis of long questions like yours, preferring to provide links to previous discussions, but yours deserves specific replies.

I've talked to some brokers in the Chesapeake Bay area and seen pictures of several 34's in the mid to upper 30's that I thought were in good shape and worth considering for purchasing.

Good.  You should look at them and determine if they are worth it.

My basic concerns are osmotic blistering, balsa coring, standing and running rigging, auxiliary and gel coat.

Blistering is rare on C34s.  Balsa coring doesn't exist, the hull is solid glass and the deck is glass over plywood.  Rigging is stout, running stuff can be either cleaned or replaced.  The engines are great and this website has by far the very best collection of engine information on the planet.  Gel coat?   My boat is almost 30 years old and I finally polished the hull last week.

We would be using the boat for day cruising, occasional overnighting and entertaining family and friends. Am I just fooling myself and these boats would be more trouble than they're worth and if so what's a good number?

That's the way most of us use our boats, I've been on mine for over two weeks at  a time and anchor out every time I go sailing.  No, we love our boats and they are not trouble, they are a labor of love for each and every one of us.  A good number is 1,801, 'cuz that's how many were made.

Also please know that I realize you're desire to keep the numbers up to help maintain the value of your own boats - I had this problem with a C30 12 years or so ago on the Pagan River.

Excuse my French, but absolute and utter BS.  We just don't do that here.  The market and the condition of the boats determines their value.  Sorry you had that bad experience.  Buy a C34 and you won't.  

[Hokie]

Thank you all so much for your help!!! It sounds like I either need to increase my budget numbers or get a smaller - C30 - boat. Maybe I'll get lucky and find an underpriced 34 - it is a buyers market. I would like to have the extra cockpit that the 34 offers but we'll see. Please know how much I appreciate your help!

Thanks,
Hokie

[Stephen Butler]

As a fellow that has just listed his 1990 boat, but is located far from you, let me make a few comments. 
1) As Stu has said, the pointing difference between a fin and wing keel is so slight that it can be dismissed.  As an old physicist, I love measuring things and after 10 years of data collection, can fully support Stu's observations; As for any preferences, our experience with a fin keel in thin waters is that it doesn't actually matter, as heeled fin keel draws about the same as a heeled wing keel, and is easier to free if aground.
2) If you are going down the ICW, and have anything on your mast top, forget the higher mast.  Also, with a 150 on the bow, the sailing difference is nil;
3) As Noah mentioned, get the engine thoroughly checked as in older boats, it will represent the greatest percentage of value, up to 40% if replacement is needed. As a very general rule of thumb based on comments from many Universal/Westerbake/Caterpillar dealers, with good maintenance, the engine should be good for up to 3500 hours before a top-end job is needed. The pumps, starter, and alternator are another matter;
4) Regarding pricing for older C34s, let me give you some details as we are now going through the process.  We have listed our 1990 boat, which has been updated and is in excellent condition except where noted below, for $40K.  The local Catalina distributor thought the boat should be listed in the $50K to $55K range, but we wanted a quick sale for a variety of reasons, including that we now live in California and the boat is in Florida.  Also, being realistic, a new owner will have to do bottom paint, buff and wax the deck, and do the teak on deck, as well as adding a new permanent mount GPS. To find a 1990 C34 with a low hour engine, reasonable sails, a dingy, an o/b, etc., etc., you can expect to pay $45K to $50K, after the negotiations are done.   Then, expect to invest another $5K in various other items and changes; keep in mind what a nearly new replacement or new replacement would cost.
5) Regarding a professional survey, get one if you wish, but remember that you are dealing with a 25 year old sailboat and can pretty much quickly tell if the owners kept it in shape.  If funds are limited, do an in-water survey, and an engine survey;
6) Make sure that whatever older boat is purchased, it has the "newer" rudder with the improved shaped and the ss internal grid.

Hope this is of some help to you in your search.  The C34 is a great boat.

   

[chuck53]

My suggestion...if you are serious about either a C30 or 34, don't just talk to brokers, go look at the boats they have listed.  A lot of your questions will be answered.  Any addional info needed, we're happy to help.
I used to have a 30 and now own a 34 and I'm on the lower Potomac.
I had a fin keel on my 30 and now have a wing.  No way would I go back to a fin.  I ran aground a couple times and hit bottom a couple of times with my fin.  Have yet to even touch bottom with my wing.

When my wife and I were in our boat searching mode, I think we looked at just about every 34 for sale on the bay, with the exception of those with fins.  They were not even considered.

[Ron Hill]

Hokie : If you are going to sail the Chesapeake I would NOT go for the fin keel, you'll definitely want the wing keel.

The problem that you'll get into with any boat engine that is more than 20 years old is not the compression and wear, but the seals which tend to "dry out" during layup.

A few thoughts

[Wayne]

Hokie, you mentioned liking to go fast from time to time.  PHRF of about 144 on the 34 vs 175+ on a 30 . . . a lot of course depends on the condition of the sails.  I would seriously try to stretch for a decent 34.  If you spend a little more now you probably won't be looking for a somewhat bigger boat a few years from now.  If you buy a 30, then put more money into it over the next two or three years . . . I'm sure you see my point.  The 34 really is a great all around boat.  Brokers here in the Bay Area are always asking me if I want to sell mine.  Its is an easy boat for them to resell!