Boat not responding to rudder

[mark_53]

While cruising the San Juans this summer, we got into some fairly strong winds maybe 15knts. Main and 150 genoa up.  A gust came up as we were rounding a point off one of the islands doing about 6.5knts with prop in reverse and dingy engine motor down ( it fell down and I didn't want to stop).  I turned the rudder hard to port to avoid rocks but the boat just kept going straight for the rocks!  I think I dumped air out of the genoa to correct the problem but I had never run into this situation before.  Anyone else experience the boat not responding to rudder direction?  What did you do?

[Stu Jackson]

Mark, we generally sail here in high winds, and 15 knots is just a zephyr for us.  

What you didn't tell us was what point of sail you were on.  Accordingly, it is hard to answer the question.

If closehauled or close reaching, head up, and re-find the groove.  Or drop the traveler.

If on a beam reach, do what you did and loosen the jib, also let the mainsheet out, assuming you're already down with the traveler, and pop the vang.

Going downwind shouldn't be an issue.

15 knots with a 150 is really pushing it.  Trying to furl the 150 genoa to a working jib 110 will not work.

[mark_53]

What you didn't tell us was what point of sail you were on.

Sorry, I was on a beam reach, main sheet out about 3 feet, traveler centered.

[Clay Greene]

With the gust, the apparent wind most likely moved forward to more of a close reach position.  You have the smaller rudder on your boat and we found that it would get overwhelmed going upwind in 15 plus knots.  You may also have older sails, in which case the draft is farther back and the center of effort gets further behind the keel, increasing the tendency of the boat to head up (i.e., weather helm).  We bought a new 135 to replace our 150 and that allowed us to keep the full sail out in higher winds. 

[mark_53]

Claygr, good points and yes I do have older sails and wind does shift when rounding a point.  I was wondering if the drag from the dinghy with motor down may have had something to do with it also.

[Fred Koehlmann]

Definitely weather helm. We've experienced it fairly often in stronger winds (18 knots) , even when only going with the genoa. I'm actually surprised since we only have a 135% sail. It's not terribly extreme when it happens, but enough to provide constant pressure on the helm.  If we had the main up, the centre of effort would have been even more aft and the weather helm worse. Normally you would ease the main to get back down wind, but if you're not even using it, the only thing we can do is ease and luff or pinch up (basically go with it). We have the MkII and I'm curious if other also have this much weather helm in stronger winds?  To me this suggests that the mast should be a bit further forward.

I light winds its never a problem, and then I wish we had a bigger sail. 

On a slightly different thought/concern about rudder not responding... I'm wondering if anyone has ever been in a situation during rough weather, where the gear below in the aft lockers has shifted/move and blocked or gotten in the way of the steering cables? It hasn't happened yet, and I'm careful and a bit paranoid about keeping stuff away from that area.

[Ken Juul]

The term for the event is "rounding up".  Not sure about multi masted boats, but can happen to just about any sloop in the right conditions.  Dropping the traveller is generally the cure.

[Clay Greene]

I agree that dropping the traveler can help because you are depowering the main.  The next step in terms of the main would be to reef.  But I have been surprised how our C34 would sail pretty balanced in a lot of wind with just the genoa, similar to what Fred was describing above.  I found that in winds above 15 knots, we had to reduce the genoa from a 135 to a 100 (i.e., clew back only to the mast, not overlapping) in order to keep the boat from rounding up.  We tend to think of the headsail balancing out the mainsail but in my experience the overlapping part of the headsail on the C34 contributes to weather helm rather than reduces it. 

[Ron Hill]

Mark : You haven't posted it, but I'll guess that you have a wing keel and the original rudder!!  Am I right?

If so you just found out that you were "rounding up" into the wind (weather helm). You ran out of rudder!!

The easiest way to solve the rounding up problem is to install a back stay adjuster (look in WiKi or Projects or Mainsheet tech notes) to see how I made one.  A backstay adjuster will flatten the main and give you back rudder control.
 
You might also consider changing to the C34 wing keel elliptical rudder $$ or adding to your existing rudder as I did (WiKi or Mainsheet tech note articles again) to see how I did just that.  Make your own elliptical rudder - Easy to do!!

Great articles in those old Mainsheet tech notes, you should take time to read them.  You'll get all kind of ideas and find that most all problems have already been solved!!

A few thoughts

[Ken Heyman]

I also echo the previous posts in that you almost certainly were experiencing "weather helm". It wasn't mentioned unless I missed it as to whether the rocks were a lee shore or upwind.If you were experiencing weather helm,the boat would've been trying to head up into the wind i.e. toward the rocks in your case. And you would've been trying unsuccessfully to turn down wind away from the rocks. We have an elliptical rudder Which greatly diminishes weather helm and enhances control. It makes a tremendous difference in mitigating rounding up tendencies coupled with traveler, backstay and reduction of sail and flattening of sail  adjustments. BTW,you should have been feeling tremendous pressure on the helm as you fought to head off the wind .
Ken

[mark_53]

Mark : You haven't posted it, but I'll guess that you have a wing keel and the original rudder!!  Am I right?

I do not have a winged keel.

The easiest way to solve the rounding up problem is to install a back stay adjuster (look in WiKi or Projects or Mainsheet tech notes) to see how I made one.  A backstay adjuster will flatten the main and give you back rudder control.

I have a backstay adjuster.  Never really noticed much difference when I use it.  

You might also consider changing to the C34 wing keel elliptical rudder $$ or adding to your existing rudder as I did (WiKi or Mainsheet tech note articles again) to see how I did just that.  Make your own elliptical rudder - Easy to do!!

Thanks Ron, I'll consider it next time I haul the boat.

Great articles in those old Mainsheet tech notes, you should take time to read them.  You'll get all kind of ideas and find that most all problems have already been solved!!

That's one of the main reasons I boaught the boat.  Grat support forum!!

A few thoughts

[mark_53]

It wasn't mentioned unless I missed it as to whether the rocks were a lee shore or upwind.

Ken: I was on a reach with windward to my port, rocks dead ahead maybe 1/10 mile. Wind was parallel to shore.  I tried turning into the wind to bring the boat close hauled but the boat seemed to be overpowered and would not respond to rudder direction until I dumped wind from the genoa.

BTW,you should have been feeling tremendous pressure on the helm as you fought to head off the wind .
Ken

Yes, lots of pressure when doing 6.5 knots and not turning.  My thought was the drag from the dinghy with engine down and prop in reverse would have increased turning resistance along with increased drag on the starboard side from the 20+ degree heel from the portside wind gust.  I would think weather helm would have aided a turn into the wind.   In this case I could not turn into the wind.

[Fred Koehlmann]

Mark,

Sounds like we had it wrong. What you are describing; wind from port, heeling to starboard, dumping wind from genoa allowing to turn up... all is about having lee helm. Your center of effort was so far forward that you were not able to steer up. You probably were not heeling too much, since that does tend to round you up, especially when the rudder has less water to work on. Dumping or luffing the genoa was the right thing to do. You can also furl your genoa some to help balance the sail plan in those conditions.

I'm going to guess that since you have a fin keel, that your centre of resistance my also be a bit further aft than we with winged keels. Typically this is great for you if you're racing and want to sail higher than the next guy. I find that with our winged keel we typically sail a bit lower than someone with fin keel.

Not sure what type of dingy you have, but if you had it tied off to starboard and and if it really did pull or suck back, it may have influenced the turning up just enough to make it hard. Our dinghy is a hard bottom and pulls very easily and so far we've have not experienced any issue towing it. That said, the resistance increases the faster you go.

As for your prop, I can not imaging this doing anything. If anything it might influence your centre of resistance, by the numbers would be so small that it couldn't matter. IMHO.

[Ken Heyman]

Yup- you clearly we're not experiencing weather helm.Thanks for the clarification.
Ken