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Author Topic: 135 v. 150, Jib Only & Heavy Weather Sailing  (Read 10029 times)

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Dave DeAre

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Re: 135 v. 150
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2012, 06:53:34 AM »

My last boat C-30 FK, TR came with a hi-tech 150. We did poorly in the Weds Beer Can races; 150 was too heavy for light air and too big for really heavy air.
I had UK make a new dacron 135 and in the 1st year of use won the YC Beer Can series jib & main. My 34 has a heavy Catalina 150 that exhibits the same as above. When I buy a new headsail it will be a 135.
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Kevin Henderson

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Re: 135 v. 150
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2012, 08:45:46 AM »

The PO of Pau Hana liked to race and had 150 with a really low cut foot.  That sail is now badly used and tired and In September I had ordered a new 135 to be delivered in March.  For our purposes (Cruising) I think we will find the 135 easier to handle and the foot cut a little higher to allow better visibility. :abd:
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 10:15:57 AM by Kevin Henderson »
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The sail, the play of its pulse so like our own lives: so thin and yet so full of life, so noiseless when it labors hardest, so noisy and impatient when least effective.
~Henry David Thoreau

MarkT

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Re: 135 v. 150
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2012, 08:50:23 AM »

I replaced my 150 with a 135 last year. The improvement in boat handling in gusty conditions is pronounced. Where with the 150 we would be fighting to keep the boat going in the direction we wanted when the wind gusted (even when dumping the main) now we just pick up more power. I know this is mostly the difference between an old sail and a new one. I couldn't be happier with the upgrade and it sure makes for a happier 1st mate when she is the one steering the boat. Our boat has the wing keel and is a mk1 with the original rudder.

IMHO
If it is about going fast - get the 150 and figure out how to get every bit of power you can out of it without too much rudder.
If it is about making the boat easy to sail and more forgiving - get the 135.

My $0.02

Mark Tamblyn
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Clay Greene

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Re: 135 v. 150
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2012, 02:40:27 PM »

Thanks for the excellent input.  The 135 may well be a better choice for our every day use because we like to go out and play in the heavier air.  The 150 still has some stiffness left so we could bring that out in JAM conditions that require the bigger sail.  I have to say I would appreciate the better visibility of a 135 when we're heading up to the start line. 
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Stu Jackson

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Re: 135 v. 150
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2012, 06:49:31 PM »

I have to say I would appreciate the better visibility of a 135 when we're heading up to the start line. 

The size of the sail is not proportional to the view.

Forgive me for saying this, but : "It's the cut of your jib!!!"   :D :D
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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Mark Sutherland

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Re: 135 v. 150
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2012, 02:00:50 PM »

I concur with the reduce-the-main first chorus.  You can reduce the the weather helm a bit by simply "easing" or de-powering the main, but I really don't like my main luffing too much, so I generally reef it or drop it completely.  What I REALLY like a lot in 18-25 knots, is sailing with Jib only, as Stu said.  It kills the weather healm altogether which makes steering as effortless as an 8 knot wind, it reduces heel, and the boat still goes 7+ knots.  It turns an otherwise hair-raising sail into a comfortable one.  Caveat: I read somewhere that running jib only in over 25 knots can put too much stress on the rig. 
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Stu Jackson

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Re: 135 v. 150
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2012, 05:50:15 PM »

... It turns an otherwise hair-raising sail into a comfortable one. 

Caveat: I read somewhere that running jib only in over 25 knots can put too much stress on the rig. 

Urban myth.  Half the sail area reduces the load on the rig.
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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Jim Hardesty

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Re: 135 v. 150
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2012, 06:13:39 AM »

I'm not a sail maker or a fabric engineer, just repeating what was told to me.  And made sense.  When sailing in strong winds (25-30kn) and using a single unreefed sail (dacron) that wasn't designed for the high loads, the sail will stretch and never return to original shape.  So, if the purpose is to have a given sail area for a wind speed, it is desireable to have the load spread over 2 reduced sails.  His point was even if the boat handled ok it was better for fabric sails to be reefed.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 09:53:06 AM by Jim Hardesty »
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Jim Hardesty
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Ted Pounds

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Re: 135 v. 150
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2012, 08:56:51 AM »

There was an article in Practical Sailor a few years back about running jib only.  They said it was not a problem, especially on stiff, sturdy, over-built rigs like the C34 has.   :thumb:
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Ted Pounds
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Hawk

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Re: 135 v. 150
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2012, 10:12:33 AM »

I recall that the issue regarding stress on the mast and rig when sailing with jib alone was more to do with the stresses on the mast caused by manging in big seas rather than wind speed.  The reefed main providing additional stability to the mast in heavy seas.....I took that to mean offshore largely.

Hawk
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Stu Jackson

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Re: 135 v. 150
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2012, 11:27:05 AM »

Caveat: I read somewhere that running jib only in over 25 knots can put too much stress on the rig.  

I had this offline discussion:


Mark,

Nice to hear from you again.  Timely conversation.  As far as your main halyard idea, I believe it is totally unnecessary, both as an engineer and as a sailor.

Just coincidentally, my son and I were out in the ocean on Tuesday, June 12, 2012.  It was nice and calm in the morning and we were heading out to the Farallons, 25 miles out.  About 5 or 6 miles out north of Potato Patch off Bolinas a bit after 1200, the winds very quickly built to over 25 with quickly building seas later recorded at 7 feet at 7 seconds.  We agreed it wouldn't be prudent to continue, even with our 110 jib and a reefed main.  We double reefed the main and it was still too much.  Then we hove to.  A great relief and something everyone should know.  We sat and talked about our options:  dropping the main, reefing the jib some (I rarely if ever do that, since we use our smaller 85% jib for the summer, but still had our 110% "wintertime" jib up on this trip).

We concluded that it would safest to drop the main completely and run back into the Bay on jib alone, so I tethered onto the shroud and went up and dropped the main.  Our Batt Cars and our double line reefing from the cockpit really helped in getting the main down, since I don't think regular slugs would have let it come down by itself, as ours did that day.  I had concluded that even downwind I didn't want to mess with even the double reefed mainsail up, since gybing the main in those conditions just wasn't worth it.  EVER.

Anyone who has to go up on deck to reef their main is crazy and lazy.  Crazy 'cuz it's a dangerous place to be and lazy because it is so simple to rig the reefing lines back to the cockpit.  The picture shows the jib backwinded in the heave to.  The main came all the way down to where you see it, I just had to tie it off!  It was a sloppy tie, but it worked.

We then talked about how to "get out of the heave to" position, since WONDERS OF WONDERS, the boat STAYED hove to with ONLY the jib up.  We concluded later that this happened because the wind was so strong that the hull of the boat and the dodger was acting like a small mainsail in balancing the boat.  My son also is very good on the wheel and kept the boat in the right position.  Actually I was quite amazed.  Love this boat and love knowing how to heave to.  Two ways to get out:  gybe and have the wind start behind us and CRACK the jib wide open, or release the jib and go off on port tack downwind (see the picture).  Although I often get out of a heave to by just popping the jib and leaving the main on its side, rather than resetting the jib, we decided the shock load from a popping jib wasn't worth it, so we planned the maneuver, and I slowly eased the jib down while he steered carefully, first straight and then bearing off to starboard to start our downwind run back to the Gate.  It worked perfectly.  We sailed for the rest of the day (1300 to 1630) under jib alone, gybing back down through Bonita Channel, across the shipping lanes, and back in through Baker Beach and the Golden Gate Bridge all the way across The Bay to Clipper Cove.

Going back to my original reply to you, I forgot to tell my friend that not only should he have not been sailing downwind with only his mainsail up, but he could have let out some jib, hove to and done what we did to drop his main.

I fully endorse jib only.  That's why there are backstays.  :-)

The other thing you might want to keep in mind is that simplicity is KING when the sh*t hits the fan.  I believe that the LESS complications you introduce, the safer you will be.  That's why, for instance, I think running backstays are dangerous.  I know they're required for some rigs, but then I'd never go near a boat that had 'em.

I think if I had the extra line you thought about using, it would simply get in the way.  The very LAST thing I needed when I went up on the cabintop that afternoon was anything flogging away and hitting me in the jaw!

We were doing 6 knots with 26+ knots apparent wind when going "uphill", and after we we hove to and started sailing downwind, we saw 6.5 to 7 knots with 16-18 knots wind speed when we were going downwind after our maneuver.  That means 25.  It was blowin'!  What was also good was that our course was almost DDW with just a tiny amount of enough wind slant to keep the jib full but the waves were on our stern, not our quarter, so it was a flatter boat motion rather than one of those rockin' & rollin' ones you get with quartering heavy seas.

I hope this answers your question.  8-)  I don't know if I'd want to be out in 25++++ knots, this was more than enough.  But it also reflects my belief that it's not so much the wind, but the waves that'll getcha.  We've sailed in winds just as high in The Bay, but the water is much, much flatter, even on an ebb against the wind.  Ocean sailing is completely different.  The fetch is way longer and the swells under the wind waves makes for a completely different experience.

We do, both, however, love ocean sailing.  While I don't have John Rousmaniere's experience in higher winds, and certainly bow to his knowledge, this worked well for us in those conditions.  While I don't know for sure, and probably wouldn't want to try it, I would guess that I'd roll up more jib if the winds had continued to build, don't know what 35+ would do, but I wouldn't be out in my boat in those conditions (if I could help it).  Then I'd go bare poles, the dodger would sail the boat!!!  But the boat was great in all that "stuff" we encountered that day.  I would also suggest a triple reef or much higher reef points if those were conditions you would expect.  I have used our double reef only twice in 13 years with this boat.  In the future, I'd go for a third reef or a higher second reef position.  There was too much sail still up with a second reef.  I don't "buy" the gusset theory, since it seems to me that the weight of the sail material alone would simply appear that it can't provide that support.  It would depend on the strength of the leach for mast support?  Hmm... The backstay is there to support the mast.  Running a line from the masthead to the middle of the boom would appear to place more unnecessary stress on the gooseneck and the lower middle section of the mast.

My son later asked me whether that was the hardest sailing I'd ever done.  Yup.

Best regards,

Stu



-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sutherland
To: Mraquaq
Sent: Sat, Jun 16, 2012 12:25 pm
Subject: RE: Jib only BACK

Hey Stu,
 
You’ll recall that you and I had a conversation about “jib only” and how John Rousmaniere states in his guide “Heavy weather sailing” that jib only puts too much stress on the rig.  I believe his context was 25+ knots of wind.  You and I seemed to concur that his rig strength comment didn’t make sense.  I like to be prepared for anything and his assertion has bugged me because my main is gonna be too much sail, even then double reefed if the wind gets to be too much(35+ knots?).   But I’m not sure I wanna go bare poles at 35 knots.  I still want some control.    I read his guide again last night, and something struck me that may explain his assertion about rig stress.  Draw a basic picture of your boat with the main up, reefed if you like.  Notice that the leech of the main acts at a “gusset”, connecting the top section of the mast to the leech, to the boom to the main sheet to the cabin top….   In essence, the leech provides a connecting link to the upper mast which has to take some stress off of the back stays.   I’m not an engineer, so I can’t comment on whether the reefed jib in 35+ knots could generate enough foreward force to over-stress the back stays or not.   If so, I have a thought on how to run jib only while relieving stress on the rig:  How about running the main halyard to a strap that is wrapped around the boom(near the main sheet attachment) and hauling it in tight.  Now you have a taught connection to the upper mast.  Your thoughts?
 
Mark Sutherland
 
From: Mraquaq
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 2:36 PM
To: mark
Subject: Re: Jib only BACK
 
Mark,
 
Thanks for the kind note.  We learned to sail jib only back when we had our C22 on Clear Lake, a few hours north of here.  We'd trailer the boat up for the summer and leave it in the water, made for great weekends.  One day after a race, the winds picked up BIG time.  We had a 110 jib and only a single reef in the main.  I asked one of the old pros and he said: "Sail on only one sail or the other.  With your mast head rig, you'll sail better on your jib since you have to go upwind.  The main would do, but it's slower."  A few years later we were in the BVIs with heavy Christmas winds, and we sailed the Endeavor 32 with just the jib for a few days.  Just yesterday we sailed from San Francisco back to our slip on just the jib, although the winds were mild and we were still doing 4 knots at 9 knot apparent wind on a reach.  We do it a lot, both upwind and down.  Yesterday, for instance, we were in no hurry to get home and just relaxed.  I joke that the only work left on our boat is taking the mainsail cover off and putting it back on!
 
I read what Jim said about stress on the sails, but simply didn't want to get into it with him.  I believe it's nonsense, too, because there are two reasons to sail on one sail (either one, doesn't matter):  it's too windy, or it's more comfortable - either the ride or not having to raise the mainsail!  Sails are made for a wide variety of wind ranges.  If sails were only made for narrow wind ranges he'd be right, but if I had sails that would stretch because I used only one instead of both, I'd get a new sailmaker.  Think of it this way:  If I had sailed with both sails yesterday, we'd be going FASTER and thus the jib would be seeing even MORE pressure, right?  Jim's friend's argument doesn't hold water.  The issue and the question was and is really the tension on the rig.  Half the amount of sail up has gotta be less stress on the rig, in any wind strength.  But even if it isn't, it works, right?
 
Your idea about the gybe is very well taken.  Sure is nice to not have to worry about the boom.  In heavy air you just have to make sure the jib doesn't go flying around the forestay.  We had a member sail his boat down the coast of California.  He told me that had big trouble around Point Conception, a notoriously heavy wind area.  "We were running with just the main up and we had a lot of trouble turning back upwind to drop it."  All I asked was if they were able to do it.  What I was going to say, before I realized it would sound rude, was "What the hell were you doing going downwind in heavy wind and seas with only your main instead of just your jib?"  Your high wind story about your friend was right on.  So many people forget they can, and in many cases, should do it.
 
Nice to hear from you and look forward to more of your contributions on the message board.  Great to have you with us.
 
Best regards,

Stu
 
In a message dated 2/9/2012 6:09:49 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, mark writes:

    Stu, your “urban myth” comment really caught my attention.  I LOVE sailing jib only in heavy wind.  I shared the idea with a guy last fall while in 30-40 knot winds and he loved it.   There’s so much less work sawing on the wheel.  The other thing I forgot to mention in my post was that I really like not having to worry about a jibe when running jib only.    Re: the “myth”, I think I saw the comment in one of those fold out, water proof “quick guides” on “heavy weather sailing from West Marine.  I would prefer to sail jib only in rough conditions.  How much would you, or HAVE you sailed with jib only?    Thanks for the feedback.
    
    Mark Sutherland

Tag: heavy weather sailing
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 10:53:33 AM by Stu Jackson »
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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Ron Hill

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Re: 135 v. 150, Jib Only & Heavy Weather Sailing
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2012, 06:19:36 PM »

Guys : In was out there again in heavy gusting winds 20-35kts and we sailed beautifully on part (reefed) 150 Genoa.  All you have to do is crank in some back stay adjuster to keep the mast in column.  

For most "mom & pop" sailor combinations, the C34 does a wonderful job on the jib alone.  
Now if I had a furling main I'd probably have put some of it out.   a few thoughts
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 06:21:24 PM by Ron Hill »
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