Adler Barbour Refrigeration

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karista

After 10 years of reliable operation my Cold Machine Evaperator now only freezes on half of its surface, one tray has ice the other does not. The unit also seems to be running all the time as the non working side is where the thermostat is attched. I suspect that it possibly needs to be recharged with freon, although there are no visible signs of leakage. Any ideas out there of the potential cause/fix? The unit uses R12 freon, are there conversion kits available or can it still be recharged with R12? Is 409a a direct replacement freon?
Bernd

jentine

After 10 years of good service, I would retire the unit and replace it.  The cost of upgrading the existing unit may be near or greater than an new unit for another decade of trouble free service.
Jim Kane

Stu Jackson

Bernd

I recently had to replace my fan, after doing a lot of my own research on the A/B forum.

When I purchased the fan from my local A/B rep, I asked him about unit replacement, specifically if I could just replace the compressor and leave the old evaporator, being careful to get rid of all of the old refrigerant.  (The new refrigerants are different chemicals and can't be mixed.)

He told me a story about how he had tried to save one of his clients some money and tried to keep the old evaporator.

End result:  a unit that didn't work, and a very dissatisfied client, who, duh!, forgot that it was his own decision to try to save some money in the first place.

Moral: if you need to replace the old compressor unit, you HAVE to do the whole thing.

The advantage, as noted, is ten more years of a new unit.  Disadvantage is cost if you can have your old unit recharged, or if you just need a new electronic module.

For those of you who may not be aware of it, www.catalinaowners.com has an excellent Adler Barbour Expert Forum.  

Good luck.
Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

"There is no problem so great that it can't be solved."

Stu Jackson

Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

"There is no problem so great that it can't be solved."

pklein

Had the exact same problem as Mr. Mueller on 1989 Hull #977.  Problem was some of the freon had leaked out.  Got a commercial refrigeration person to come out to the boat with freon and a leak sniffer.  When he saw how small the unit was he laughed, but then got to work.

The leak was from the schrader valve used to refill and he said this is common with these valves.  He replaced the valve, loaded in new freon (we had the A/B tech service guy on the cell phone because the technician wanted complete specifications) and rechecked the unit.

One very important step taken by the technician was to put some teflon tape on the threads of the cap that covers the schrader valve.  The cap is brass and goes on a brass fitting.  With the teflon tape he has created an additional sealant for the freon.

Three, possibly four years later, the unit is still working like a champ.  Total cost to repair--labor Approx $100.  Freon approx $25.  

A variation on a theme:

"If it ain't totally broke, don't replace it!"

Phill Klein
Andiamo #977
Montrose Harbor - Chicago

dpenz

If this were my boat, I'd try a cheap fix first.  If the fix doesn't work, then replace the entire system.

The new R134A refrigerant gets along OK with the old R12, and obtains just a bit less cooling performance.  The incompatibility has to do with the oil.  In a hermetic refrigeration system, the oil mixes with the refrigerant and travels around with the gas in liquid aerosol form, and mixes with the liquid refrigerant.  The problem is that the old "R12" type oil doesn't mix with the R134A refrigerant.

It would be best to remove all the old oil and refrigerant, and replace with new.  But this takes special equipment, and an expensive service call.

If you are a bit handy with tools, you can top up the system yourself.  The new R134A cans and fittings are all different from the old, so you need to go to Kmart and buy an automotive R134A conversion kit (about $35) and also a small pressurized can of oil.  It's only a few ounces.

In the kit you'll find an adapter that you can screw onto the suction side Schrader fitting.  Connect the hose to the oil can and then to the Schrader adapter.  Run the refrig and the new oil will go into the compressor.

This might be enough extra refrigerant to make your unit work OK, but if not, connect up one of the cans of R134A refrigerant and open the hose valve to charge gas into your system.  You can do this a little at a time, and observe the frost on the cold plate.  You might be able to tell from the sound of the gurgling in the evaporator when you have added enough.

This procedure worked for me, after my mate stabbed my evaporator with a knife and I had to replace it.  Since your system still is pressurized, you do not need to vacuum it to remove air.  If it leaks down again, just add more R134A, don't add any more oil.  Eventually the gas mixture will become mostly R134A, and the old oil will just go to a low spot and sit there.  It evidently doesn't do any harm.  

I have converted two cars and a boat refrigerator with good results.

karista

David
I have been told that "Freeze 12" is a totally compatible R-12 replacement. It is available in cans as well as in a recharge kit which includes all the required fittings. Have you heard of it? I am planning to recharge the system using the "Freeze 12" and see if it does the job. It  makes sense to try what you did, before thinking about replacement, which is very expnsive and not an easy installation job. How did you seal your leak?
Bernd

Ken Juul

I applaud your ambition.  However a/c and refrig systems are designed to work at a specific pressure.  Just adding a can till it cools again may or may not work.  Too much freon will degrade the performance as much as too little.  The only way to properly service the system is with a set of guages.  Both high and low pressure sides. Guage sets used to be cheap and available, Federal Regulation/EPA has stopped that.  Good luck, give it a try.  But before I put big bucks into a replacement I would have a technician with the right tools look at it.
Ken & Vicki Juul
Luna Loca #1090
Chesapeake Bay
Past Commodore C34IA

dpenz

Freeze 12 is a mixture of 80% R134a along with some other refrigerants.  According to the claims, you can add this to an R12 system and you can keep the old mineral oil and not add new POE (polyol ester) oil.  But I note that they recommend POE oil if you are using 100% Freeze 12.  Bottom line:  Freeze 12 should work OK for you.  If you need a license to buy this, go with the R134a from KMart.  In any event, I would add a few ounces of POE oil, it can't do any harm (the oils mix just fine).

I didn't have a repairable leak, I had a gash in the evaporator.  I bought a new evaporator, and it came filled with R134a.  I vacuumed the system out with a compressed air powered venturi vacuum pump, filled it with refrigerant, bled it down, refilled several times.  Probably there is still some air in the system.  You shouldn't have to do this.

I think gauge sets are still available, try Grainger or McMaster-Carr.  A set will be about $120.  Check to make sure you have all the adapters you need.  Your government has gone to a lot of trouble to make sure that the fittings for one type of refrigerant do not connect up to the fittings for another type.  But our wonderful free market offers a plethora of adapter fittings to get around this.

I think the best way to fill a system is by weight of refrigerant.  But you have no way to know how much is left in there.  You can measure the pressures with the gauge set, but with an unknown mixture of refrigerants, there is no way to know what pressures should occur.  So, there you are.  I say pour in some refrigerant until the fridge seems to work good.  :)

karista

FINAL RESOLUTION!
After contacting Adler Barbour service we determined that based on the symptoms the system needed a little recharge. The Adler Barbour recomended service person for Tampa never showed up for three set appointments (typical in Florida). I then bought Nigel Calders book "Refrigeration for Pleasureboats". Then took on On-Line test for $15.90 to get the EPA Certification Number, which is required to purchase R12. Bought a  R12 Recharge kit (12ounce Refrigerant and Valve/hose) on Ebay for $40, with the input of good advice from this site topped off the system per instructions. It now works better than ever, so don't replace your unit if the symptoms are the same, chances are that all you need is a little recharge. R12 is also readily available at any NAPA stor for $35 a can.
B. Mueller

captran

wow, great discussion.  does anyone know what type of refrigerant a 97 model would need and where I can get a fitting (size?)?  I'm thinking that might be a good spare when cruising away from civilization.

Stu Jackson

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>does anyone know what type of refrigerant a 97 model would need and where I can get a fitting (size)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Randy,

Call Gary at Adler Barbour at Phone: (860)664-4911.  He's very helpful and should be able to answer your question.  They're in Massachusetts.  He can tell you what type you have, and also who their local manufacturers representative is depending on where your boat is kept.

You could, aternatively, post the question on catalinaowners.com, Expert Forum, Refrigeration, which is hosted by Adler Barbour.  The answer may take a bit longer.  That website also has a very good search engine, once you recognize the need to differentiate between current and archived message searches, and text, all or title searches.

Rather than getting some for your cruises, why not consider just having it checked out and, if necessary, topped off before you depart?  That way you don't have to hassle with it, and unless you have a leak, you should be fine for years to come.
Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

"There is no problem so great that it can't be solved."

karista

Ron
There are two ways you can approach the recharge.
1) If you have a gauge, connect it to the Schrader Valve fitting (Bycicle tire type valve with black cap located on small black tube, top of compressor) The low side warm running pressure (taken from the valve) should be 8 PSI for the 10 inch wide evaporator and 12 PSI for the 15 inch wide model. . .
2) If you don't have a gauge set it will take you longer as you will need to add refrigerant in very small quantities (5 second bursts) close refrigerant can valve and then wait and check your evaporator until it evenly frosts all over.You may need to this several times depending on Refrigerant level when you start. This works but takes a little more time.
Bernd

captran

Oh, just thinking of the Murphys law thing.  since I'm away for 9 weeks at a time, and I have found it's difficult to find anyone or any thing in the bahamas, that I might just be prepared for the worst, which would be if a leak developed.  I have a friend who has fixed several leaks with jb weld and clamps and been able to service his unit.(but thats different fridge).  I'll call Gary.  Thanks for the number, and all your helpful advice last year.  I must say, that after tropical storm cristobal my confidence in Voyager is much better.

Stu Jackson

#14
Randy,

....DUCTAPE.

Stu

ducktape   quaak quaak  .....  >>>>/

Added 6/1/06:  or a little noticed but very handy THING to have aboard:  a bicycle tire and hose clamps.  Many fancy uses...
Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

"There is no problem so great that it can't be solved."