Dead Battery

[David Arnold]

Shame on me!  Went out sailing this weekend and had battery switch on Both not realizing that neither of the house batteries were fully charged to start with.  You guessed it... with all the electronics on plus the fridge we were out of juice within 1/2 hour and could not start the engine to get back.  Fortunately with the wind, current and a great crew we manuvered through a mooring field and docked the boat under sail where we plugged in for a few hours. 

Short of installing a dedicated starting battery I was thinking of picking up one of these devices that hold enough juice to jump start a car.  Has anyone used one of these on the boat for a situation such as I was in this weekend?

[Stu Jackson]

Dave, well done.  We had a similar situation when our fresh water coolant drained out a month or so ago and we sailed back into our slip.  Congratulations on a job well done, in a seamanlike manner.

I just did a search on "jump" and found exactly what you are looking for. 

My opinion, previously expressed, was that you're right about a separate start battery, and that even for daysails "a minimum of 300 to 400 ah in a battery house bank is necessary" because of the fridge: 60 ah per day.  Do the math - you've done that already I see.

I personally and professionally believe that adding complexity to a simple design is unnecessary.  Get your battery banks in order and the 1-2-B switch shouldn't ever matter. 

Why buy something separate when you can build it in and not have to worry about it?

[Craig Illman]

David - They seem pretty popular on the Catalina 36 mailing list. I suppose even if you had to replace it every three to five years, it would be cheaper than another group 24 battery, the associated wiring, and something like an echo charger. The PO of my boat already had installed a dedicated start battery and echo charger. It gives me piece of mind that I'll be able to crank the engine if I make a similar mistake. It doesn't even pass through the panel switch, but has a circuit breaker to isolate it. I also have an emergency "both" switch under the head sink.

Lots of options.

Craig

[sail4dale]

Dave,  On a trip to costco I saw a yellow suitcase about 18x18 x9 that was a jump starter, compressor, inverter and trouble light for $50.

I did not have a starting battery circuit and was thinking about installing one. 

Our next trip to Catalina saw our house (and starting of course) batteries go dead.  This little gem started us up right away.  It has enough juice to start the engine over three times and will recharge from a cigarette lighter plug or AC.

I feel it's the only way to go.

[Footloose]

We had charging problems when we first purchased Footloose.  I carried one of the jumper packs around that you are considering for two summers after I resolved the problem.  They do work, but a well maintained electrical system is much less agonizing.  Now it stays at home.

I also agree with Stu and have not added a separtate starting battery.  We do not have a fridge or radar so there is no great drain on the batteries.  If I do install a fridge a separated starting battery would be in the mix.

[Jeff Kaplan]

dave, in #219, i have 2 group29 deep cycle batteries, no frig., or really nothing else for big drain. boat is on mooring, so no plug in, and i reley on alt. to keep batteries charged up.  i keep a battery jump pack on board in case of emergency, will start diesel, but also it is another source for 12v and is also an inverter for 120v when needed. i have run a sander, drill and dremel off it when work needed to be done at the mooring. i recommend getting one and leaving it on board...jeff

[Ken Juul]

The start packs are cheap insurance.  Get one from WalMart or Kmart for much less that at the other WM store. May I never have to use mine.  Don't forget they need a recharge about every 3 months.  Reminds me mine is due.

[tonywright]

For those who have used this approach, where do you connect the jumper cables for best results? And where should you avoid connecting them?

Tony

[wind dancer]

I bought one of these for the same reason, though I haven't had to test it at sea yet:

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/182/p/1/pt/29/product.asp

Cheaper than adding a fifth battery (I have two banks of Trojan batteries) and a battery monitor (though I still plan on doing that some day) and it is very portable -- it can be moved between your boat,car, home, and rv.  It includes a light, a radio and three AC outlets.

You might also consider upgrading your alternator and voltage regulator so that you get more bang for your buck for the short time you are motoring.  I installed an 80 amp Balmar alternator and Xantrex (made by Balmar) voltage regulator.

[Stu Jackson]

As we all know, with boats there are many different ways of doing things.  When it comes to electrical systems, my choice of the options has been to develop a system that is ON the boat and that works, rather than depending on another piece of equipment to support a perhaps less-than-complete installed system. 

Accordingly, I chose a robust house bank, a separate starting battery, a combiner to avoid inadvertent drains of the house bank, an upgraded alternator regulator system to provide adequate charging during motoring (well beyond the capabilities of the stock alternators still bing installed - yecch), a small solar panel to avoid having to remain plugged in when away from the boat, and a good quality charger (in our case an inverter/charger combo unit).

Others have taken different courses for different reasons.  A split house bank will work, especially with four golf cart batteries.  It does reduce the life of the banks because of the higher percentage of draw down, but it still works.  If you have room (or already have installed) four "regular" batteries, the choice is either a split bank system or a larger house bank with a separate start bank.  The latter system is highly preferred by just about every professional boat electrical representative I have ever read.  The reasons are a larger house bank with more available hours and a lower percentage of discharge thus extending the life of the very same batteries.  Pretty inexpensive choice, right there.  Same batteries, same wiring.  See reply #8 at: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=973.0

Other retain small house banks as originally supplied or added to later, and charge more often from other sources.

Others depend on third party add-ons, whether these battery packs or generators.

There is NO one right answer. 

It all depends on how your use your boat.  You really need to investigate that issue.  Wanting to spend more than one night out from being plugged in, and with a fridge, you HAVE to have something else to avoid over-draining a house bank that's less than 200 ah.  The firdge draws 60 ah per day, and with lights and music and electronics, it's 100 ah per day.  A 200 ah battery bank shouldn't be drawn down more than 50%, which is exactly 100 ah.

Given that, however, if you DO intend to stay out for longer periods, and especially if you have refrigeration, the dependency to start an engine on a battery pack could work, but I suggest that it would be just as cost effective if invested in a solid boat electrical system, like an extra battery - there certainly is room on our boats for one of those.   We spent only $95 each for three 130 ah high quality batteries last year.  Then you could use the battery pack only at home or for the car - one less thing to have to drag to the boat.   

There was a recent post on another board where a (H) owner said he'd avoided his port list by having the "yard" add lead on the starboard side of his boat.  My reply: "Batteries are made of lead, why not get some use out of the added weight!"   

[Ron Hill]

David : A starting battery is cheap insurance ($50 on sale at WM)!. 
I have it on the starboard side to balance the boat.  It is installed and I don't have to haul it to and from the boat.  Finally I installed a windlass (inside my double door anchor well) and wired it into the maintenance free starting battery - this saved many feet of wiring as the battery is forward on the starboard side.   

[Ray & Sandy Erps]

Also as far as getting the engine started again with a low/dead battery, the M25 has a compression release.  Had to use it once on a hot start before upgrading the cables to the starter.

[Ken Juul]

I have a starting battery.  It will get the engine started unless I leave the battery switch in both.  I generally have the Honda 2000 on board, it will get the engine started if I leave the battery switch in both unless I'm out of gas.  And just in case Mr. Murphy has taken command of the situation (Battery switch in both & Generator inop), I have the Start Pack. 

And just in case I all of the above fails to start the engine, I have unlimited towing.   

Redundency is good

[David Arnold]

Ray,
What is the compression release and will that allow the engine to start if the battery is weak?

[Stu Jackson]

Torrenson website:  http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/universal/200157/universal-owners-manual-m25-specifications.html

Use the index at the left for the DEcompression [/u] [/i] lever.

Use the index at the left, way at the bottom,. click on M25 and scroll down to the picture, it shows where the lever is located on the engine.

Another parts resource:  http://www.feathermanenterprises.com/html/m25.htm

Many other Catalina groups with these engines swear by this method of starting the engine.  For various reasons, like, for instance "we C34-ers believe in designing and installing healthy electrical systems," there's not much in our website about it.  The C30 and C36 folks use it a lot in their tech notes and websites.  It is, however, a good thing to know, "just-in-case."

The Torrenson/marinedieseldirect website should be in your "favorites" in your browsers.  It's a valuable part of your engine "tool kit."