Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem?? M35 Engines & Fuel Pump Wiring

[sedelange]

Micheal,

The 24059 is not the type used in the wiring diagram.  You need a 24103. No wonder you are having trouble.  You should be able to get the equivalent at the local auto parts. 

[Michael]

Hello, Steve:

Interesting point you make and thank you for following up.

The preheat solenoid that was on Hali was a Cole Hersee 24059, so I simply replaced like with like.  It looked as though it was probably the one that came with the engine but I can't be sure. I don't have the wiring diagram at hand now but don't remember it or the Universal parts manual referencing any Cole Hersee part number or providing a schematic that would lead to the 24103 preheat solenoid you mention.  Can you tell me where you got that information? Meanwhile, I will have a look at the 24103 on the Cole Hersee website.

Steve, since I wrote the paragraph above you have messaged me that page 24 of the Service Manual has a schematic of the solenoid and warned that someone might have put the Cole Hersee 24059 preheat solenoid aboard Hali by mistake.  I will follow this up but thought I should post this warning now so that anyone who is reading this thread is on notice to be wary of using the 24059 solenoid.

Regards and thanks again.

[Michael]

Steve:

Thanks for your private message.  I responded to it but as my response to you did not appear in my outbasket messages I am not sure that it went to you.  Anyway, as this discussion might have some utility to others, I will continue it here.

The Universal Service Manual I have is Publication No. 200554, 1st edition, January, 2001. (This may itself be something of a problem as of course the engine aboard Hali is of 1996 or 1997 vintage. However, except as noted below, I think the diagram is accurate to my boat's engine.)  There is nothing on page 24 of this edition to do with the preheat solenoid.  However, there is a DC electrical system wiring diagram (Wiring Diagram #200360 - Catalina Yachts) and DC electrical system wiring schematic #200360 - Catalina Yachts on pages 96 and 97.  The drawing of the preheat solenoid in this particular wiring diagram accords with the Cole Hersee #24059 preheat solenoid but not with the Cole Hersee 24103 as you have described it. (As mentioned in my private message to you, unfortunately the Cole Hersee website does not have a CAD diagram for the 24103.) 

The Catalina Owner's Manual that came with Hull #1352 also contains a wiring diagram that is consistent with a preheat solenoid wired like the Cole Hersee #24059 but not consistent with the Cole Hersee 24103 as you have described it.

Accordingly, I wonder whether there was a change in the wiring diagram and type of preheat solenoid between a wiring diagram you have and the ones I have?

Also, as noted in my private message, the new Cole Hersee preheat solenoid #24059 that I am now using in replacement for a Cole Hersee of the same part number that seemed to come as original equipment aboard Hali is a continuous duty solenoid whereas the 24103 is an intermittent duty solenoid that the Cole Hersee website indicates is on for 10 seconds and off for 20 minutes.  I don't know enough about these devices to be able to draw a firm conclusion from this information but it does raise a question in my mind as to whether the 24103 is the correct solenoid for use.

The 2001 wiring diagram has two interesting differences from the way the preheat solenoid and electric lift pump circuits seemed to be wired on my 1997 engine and I believe these differences are also differences from the wiring diagram in the Catalina owner's manual that accompanied the boat. (I say believed because I don't have that wiring diagram before me at the moment. I will correct this post if on seeing it it turns out to be different than represented here.)

First, in the 2001 wiring diagram there is a grounding wire shown attached to the "I" terminal of the preheat solenoid (which is something that we have now added to Hali - although we have also moved to the S terminal of the preheat solenoid the 10 amp circuit breaker and the two wires that connect to it that come from, respectively, the P terminal of the alarm buzzer and the electric lift pump/oil pressure circuit.

Secondly, the lift pump electrical circuit is shown on the 2001 diagram in two ways.  There is a drawing of a lift pump attached to the circuit by  dashed lines and labelled "early models".  There is also a drawing of a lift pump directly attached to the circuit.  The only substantial difference between these drawings of the lift pump and its connection to the circuit seems to be that the "new" pumps have a grounding wire whereas (I think) the old lift pump (as was the case with the original lift pump on Hali) had a grounded metal case.

Steve, would you be able to email me (mjm@mjmacleod.com) a copy of the wiring diagram from page 24 of your service manual and a copy of the frontispiece of your manual so I know which manual you are working from?

Ron Hill has suggested I contact the Westerbeke service manager about another way of wiring the fuel pump and glow plugs circuit.  Although I don't think I am going to re-wire the circuit as Ron suggested (for reasons explained above), when I do get to the bottom of this solenoid/fuel pump wiring question I would like to try to write it up reasonably accurately for the sake of others similarly afflicted.  So I might contact Westerbeke to discuss uncertainties and find out whether they have had others with these problems. (Their putting a ground onto the I terminal of the preheat solenoid suggests to me that they do know about this issue.  But I am curious to know whether they are aware of the possibility of current leakage back into the preheat solenoid and glow plugs from the fuel pump/low oil pressure switch circuit and whether they, like Steve, do not see that to be a potential problem.)

Meanwhile, input from anyone with thoughts on this wiring question would be welcome.

Regards.

[Stu Jackson]

Unfortunately, the default setting for the outbox is "off," you need to check the box to keep the message in your outbox.

FWIW, the solenoid Projects article mentions a simple Ford-type solenoid which we have been using for the past nine years with no faults.  Ron Hill suggests a "marine" grade, but our "auto" grade is still working.

[sedelange]

Michael,

The manual I was using is the one on this website, http://www.c34ia.org/manuals/Operators-Manual-2of2.pdf .  The same wiring diagram 200360 is on page 25 and schematic 200360 is on page 26 (pages 5 and 6 of the pdf). 

[Updated by Stu 10/22/2020]
That link has been superseded by this one:  http://c34.org/wiki/images/1/19/Universal_A%28C%29_series_engines_%28M-25XPA%28C%29%2C_M-35A%28C%29%29_operators_manual_OCR.pdf
Look for pages 25 & 26 of the manual, NOT the PDF pages.

The schematic shows the "S" and "I" terminal, "I" being the one that is connected to switch contacts when the relay is energized.  If you connected the fourth terminal of the 24059 relay to the resistor and circuit breaker you would probably not energize the relay thus not providing power to the glow plugs and the fuel pump would likely only start running after you were able to obtain oil pressure.  Starting would be intermittent, at best. 

Here is a link to a Cole Hersee relay catalog showing the internal wiring schematics.  http://www.colehersee.com/pdf/master_cat/e_solenoid.PDF

As I indicated in an email and as Stu pointed out, most Ford start relays are wired like this.  You were also correct that this is an intermittent duty relay, but it has a 750 amp rating, well in excess of anything the glow plugs would draw.


Steve DeLange

[Stu Jackson]

Intermittent duty means you use it once in awhile.  Continuous duty means that it stays "energized" for long periods of time.  The listed load is how many amps it can carry, not for how long.

If the solenoid has to stay ON for a long period of time, I suggest redesigning, or rewiring, so that it only has to click once to energize what the service is, and then shut off when it's mission has been accomplished.  This is how our simple glow plug solenoid works.

[added 5/10/2102]  IMPORTANT Please see the note on the Critical Upgrades topic about these solenoids from Ray Irvine:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.30.html

[Michael]

Stu and Steve:

Thank you for persisting.

More later from here if it seems that it will shed light.

Regards.

[Stu Jackson]

FUEL PUMP OPERATION

Michael, I've been giving this thread and your descriptions a lot of thought and offer the following comments on some of the issues and your potential conclusions discussed earlier.

I believe a diode is unnecessary.

There is a wiring diagram discrepancy between the two drawings that you should resolve first.

You can't kill electrical gremlins with luck.

Old metal fuel pumps have grounded cases.  See Napa electronic pumps FLIX post, here:http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2515.0  The ground wire is shown in the picture and discussed in the text, reply #3.

Four family simplicity:  It occurs to me that your goal is to get things working, and that nothing would change in terms of operation IF your fuel pump was operated all the time from the just the ignition switch in the on position.  Wiring changes at and to the cockpit panel are not required.  You could either figure it out with what you have, or change it.  Your choice.

Universal Manual Starting Instructions:  Tonywright's post in reply # 38 about the Universal manual requiring holding the glow plugs via the keyswitch spring position ON while hitting the start button MEANS that there is a continuous draw on the battery bank from BOTH the glow plugs AND the starter motor.  Our C34-group experience is that this INHERENTLY leads to tough & rough starting.  The Mark I "trick" has always been to RELEASE the glow plug (button in our Mark I case) BEFORE the start button, so that both heavy amperage draws are NOT on at the same time.  There is no reason to need to do what Universal suggests, regardless of how your starting sequence is wired.  This is one of the reasons that I cautioned earlier that new designs that complicate originally simple operations are not necessarily "improvements."  What you can try if you choose to is to release the glow plug spring setting on the key switch, wait a bit, and then hit the start button.  All this means is that, as "possibly" wired, the fuel pump will only be off for that short amount of time between releasing the spring glow plug and hitting the start button.  It should make NO difference in starting operation, since the fuel will "be there" from the pump operating during the period you are holding the glow plugs, and once started the fuel pump will begin operation once the oil pressure switch closes upon engine start.  I believe this "duplex" newer wiring setup to the pump is an unnecessary complication to what used to be a simple startup procedure.  Interrupting the fuel pump between the glow plugs off and oil pressure switch close is unnecessary, since the fuel pump and oil pressure have nothing to do with each other.  On the Mark Is, the pump runs when the ignition switch is in the ON position, runs all the time.  Why stop it?  If the oil pressure is low, it doesn't matter if the fuel pump is running or not.

Power to Fuel Pump: Michael, in your reply # 37 you wrote: "...(I say energized rather than operating because there will be cases when the pump is receiving an electrical current but is not operating because the fuel line pressure is such that no demand for fuel is being made - that is, I guess, above about 4 pounds per square inch gauge pressure on these Posi-Flo pumps which are rated for 1.5 to 4 PSI.)"  That doesn't seem to be the case.  IF the pump is receiving "...an electrical current..." it will be on.  I read the referenced sources on the bio-diesel referenced website, but do not believe that EITHER the original metal Facet pumps OR the new plastic pumps are "on demand" pumps.  They're either on or off.  When pumping, the unused fuel is returned to the tank via the fuel return line, whether the engine is on or off.

Grounding & Wiring Diagrams:  Continuing with comments on your # 37:  Grounding should have nothing to do with your "issue."  It appears that it is one of significant differences between the two quoted Catalina wiring diagrams, and a POSITIVE-side  power issue, unless, of course, your grounds aren't solid.  You wrote: "Now the problem as it is theorized to be is that because the electrical circuit ("preheat solenoid activating circuit") that energizes the preheat solenoid (which acts as a switch to close the glow plugs circuit) runs through the electric lift fuel pump (a clever way to make sure that when the glow plugs are energizing fuel is also being delivered by the lift pump to the fuel injection pump for onward delivery to the cylinders when the engine cranks), if the lift pump electronics are making and breaking they make and break the preheat solenoid activating circuit with the result that the preheat solenoid does not close - or closes intermittently..."  What's so "clever?"  If the pump was ON from the ignition switch, it wouldn't need to be connected to the solenoid at all, and there wouldn't have to be two wires to the pump.  And, it is entirely useless to have the pump running before the engine starts, so why have it "linked" to the glow plugs at all?  Although "our" design does have it run then anyway, right?   Following your logic would mean that the lift pump is OFF just when you need it: when the engine starts!!  Think about it.  And, based on the wiring diagrams noted in your later post # 47, that simply does NOT seem to be the case.    The power to the solenoid simply is NOT  shown on either diagram to "run through" the fuel pump: the circuit goes FROM the keyswitch TO the solenoid and then TO the fuel pump.  The fuel pump has two feeds on the page 25 diagram:  one from the solenoid when the keyswitch is being held to energize the glow plugs via the "S" terminal of the keyswitch, and second, from the "I" terminal of the keyswitch when the engine starts and the oil switch closes.  On the page 26 diagram, the glow plugs and the fuel pump are in PARALLEL, on both pages 25 & 26 the fuel pump and oil pressure switch are in SERIES.  BECAUSE the fuel pump is in SERIES with the oil pressure switch, the pump will NOT run until the engine starts unless it is wired with the double inputs on page 25.  On that page 25, the pump WILL run when the glow plugs (solenoid) is held ON with the "S" spring on the keyswitch. You are correct in your summary, but my point is that the wiring just doesn't go THROUGH the fuel pump to the solenoid, it runs FROM the solenoid TO the pump when the keyswitch is held on.  It's a subtle, but important difference, because I see no way that your theory that the pump is affecting the glow plugs should apply.  You can easily TEST my understanding of the circuits:  either disconnect the fuel pump or close the circuit breaker, if there is one, from the solenoid to the pump. 

Wiring Diagram Discrepancies: These are TWO serious discrepancies between the two wiring diagrams. (1) Circuit breakers:  Page 25 of the wiring diagram shows the circuit breaker downstream of the solenoid TO the pump.  Page 26 shows a circuit breaker between the oil pressure switch and the resistor to ground.   (2) Connections to the pump from the Positive (+) Wiring Side:  Page 25 shows the wiring from the downstream side of the solenoid to the + side of the fuel pump, while page 26 shows the wiring from the end run of the glow plugs to the (-) side of the pump.   They are numbered the same (#200360) but they are very different re: the pump operation.  On the page 26 drawing the pump simply should not start from anything BUT the oil pressure switch. Follow both the positive wiring TO the pump and the grounds from and around it.   You need to find out what you have on YOUR boat before you go adding stuff.  I would find that out first if it was my boat.

Another thought:  maybe the circuit breaker, if there is one, is faulty.  This has happened before.

Lift pumps:  the reason they call them that is because on the C30s and C36s, the fuel tank is well below the engine.  As you may already know, our tanks, when at least half full, have been reported to siphon to provide fuel even if the pump is broken or off.  If your fuel tank is full, you can perform my suggested test.

Sequence of Operations:  I agree with your presentation of the operations based on the page 25 ONLY wiring diagrams and your field experience:  keyswitch held to energize glow plugs means the fuel pump runs, release spring loaded keyswitch, pump stops, start engine, pump runs when the oil pressure switch closes.  However, IF you follow Tony's post, item 4 above, then the pump would continue to run since you are "supposed to" hold the keyswitch (and keep energizing the glow plugs) until you start the engine.  What I suggested too indirectly in my # 39 was that the Mark I sequence is simpler:  the fuel pump always runs when the keyswitch is on; the Mark I keyswitch is ONLY for on or off, since we have separate glow plug and start buttons; turn keyswitch on - pump runs - hold glow plug button in - pumps continues to run - release glow plug button (we have a solenoid we installed ourselves since the Mark Is  with M25s don't come with one) - pump runs - hit start button.  It's simpler, and is what I was suggesting you consider.  The short period of time that the pump is OFF in the page 25 ONLY wiring diagram, and its dependency on the oil pressure switch, I personally believe, is meaningless.  Page 26 operationally is NOT what you describe.

Suggestions:  If you agree with that, then you really don't have to do anything with the wiring to the cockpit control panel, assuming you've resolved the wiring diagram discrepancies noted in my item 6 above: do two things all "underneath" and not in the stanchion to the cockpit panel -- disconnect the wire from the solenoid output to the fuel pump [correction](per page 25 wiring diagram which shows two wires into the pump vs. page 26 which shows only one) and jumper the oil pressure switch so that the pump always runs when the keyswitch is ON (the oil pressure switch will still provide an alarm).

Options: OTOH, if everything works with my suggestions, then you'd be changing the engine wiring "design" retroactively to the M25 - simpler is sometimes better.  If it works for you, either way, quit while you're ahead, but at least you'll KNOW what you have.

Last: If all THAT doesn't work, you DO have a FUEL problem.

This has been fascinating, but we still have to remember that the whole purpose of your  part of this thread was hard engine starting.  I do not believe the fuel pump has anything ELECTRICALLY to do with your starting problems (other than swapping out the fuel pump again, or disconnecting it as a test as I've suggested to get to the heart of your issue).  Perhaps it would be helpful to go back up to Mike Stimmler's original issues on this thread and what he did to resolve HIS problem.  Or, wait a few seconds between draining the battery bank with the glow plugs before you start.  Also suggest advancing the throttle a bit as previously suggested.

[sedelange]

Stu:
I don't think there is a discrepancy in the two diagrams, only a difference in their presentation.  One is a wiring diagram while the other is a schematic, with positive on the left and ground on the right for simplified circuit analysis. 

I am wondering if simplification might be the answer for Micheal, at least in the short term to get the engine operating and for diagnosis.  Perhaps he should add a jumper wire to the fuel pump to insure its operation and using another larger wire with a clip on the end to power the glow plugs directly.  The glow plug jumper would have to be removed by hand after the appropriate heating time.  While crude, they would bypass the control circuits long enough to test the engine.  I would also suggest a temporary or permanent remote starter switch as shown in the projects. 

It seems boats are notorious for having poor connections.  During my refit I am replacing all of the wiring to the engine, because I found the excess harness just coiled under the aft berth.  The several feet of extra wire surely couldn't help the voltage drop that is always a problem.

[tonywright]

I defer to those with a far better understanding of engines and electrical cicuits than I. But Stu, is it possible that Universal assumes that linking the fuel pump to the oil pressure sensor means that they intend to starve the engine of fuel when the oil pressure falls to a dangerously low level, in an attempt to slow down or stop the engine?

Tony

[Stu Jackson]

Tony, Steve, Michael, and others, I've posted a correction in my reply above in red which I only noted late last night, sorry about that.

1.  Linking fuel "starvation" in case of low oil pressure:  While that may have been a "design intent" it just doesn't work in our C34 boats with more than a half full tank of fuel.  In any event, the low oil pressure alarm circuit should do that, if it was designed with that intent.  If conceived that way, there simply should have been a fuel cutoff if the oil pressure sensor "popped."  Diesels need only two things to operate: air and fuel.  Nothing will "slow them down."

2.  Steve, there is a discrepancy.  I do understand the difference between the diagrams, but the circuit breakers ARE different, and the wiring on the positive side vs. the negative side of a pump and the glow plugs are also different.  Granted the glow plugs could use the same negative, BUT there simply is NO second positive input to start the pump on page 26.  None.  Perhaps my correction, above, makes the point more clearly.  Page 25 is an "installation" drawing, while page 26 is a schematic.  They should agree on the basic PATH of the electricity, but they do NOT to the pump: just follow the wires on the two drawings.

Again, if the two drawings are different, and they are, then Michael should do some research on his wiring and decide what he thinks is appropriate for his boat and his understanding of the issue.  I agree that a short term simplification, if ONLY for diagnosing the issue, would be what I would do.  However, I do not consider them to be "control" circuits, which are usually different than basic "power" circuits.  In this case, the power to the pump.  The basic point of my analysis is that the "theorized" interaction of the fuel pump affecting the solenoid just shouldn't be the case.

What has also occurred to me is that this is one of hundreds of boats with this circuiting.  Sure, it could be an inherent design over-complication, but we have to ask ourselves: "Why is Michael the ONLY one reporting this?"  when there are hundreds of boats out there with this design.  My reply was based on, as Steve agrees, simplification, for at least testing purposes, not trying to say that all M35XPB engine starting systems are faulty.  I just wouldn't do it that way, although if I owned as nice a boat as that, I wouldn't mess with it too much.  But I would definitely start testing what I had before theorizing and adding diodes.

I've offered this to help Michael analyze his starting problem.  It's still his boat and his decisions to make.  Ron suggested he call Joe at Westerbeke.  If Michael follows my presentation,a nd agrees with it or not, it could be a useful point of discussion for him with Joe.  That's a phone call that Michael and Joe would need to have, and I think we'd all be interested in the results of both that and the solution to Michael's starting problems.

[tonywright]

Thanks for the clarification Stu.

To introduce a possible red herring: I did notice quite a big difference between Mike's engine and mine. The heat exchanger is completely different. The oil filler is aft, rather than forward, the air filter is enclosed rather than open, etc.  It it possible that he has an M35A?

Tony

[Stu Jackson]

Good question, Tony, but his profile state M35B.  I just noticed that, and went back and aded M25 to my profile.

[Ron Hill]

Guys : I believe that all of the MKIIs have a M35B engine.  Maybe there is some difference between the early and later M35Bs and the M35BCs?   
The simple solution is the by pass all of that automatic stuff and wire the glow plugs and fuel pump direct.  Easily done and you know what you've got.  But call Westerbeke first and make sure that you're not introducing some more problems.   

[Stu Jackson]

Another interesting sidebar to this whole "when does the fuel pump run?" issue just occurred to me after stumbling over this thread: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=64.0 or any other of the many fuel bleeding posts.

IF the fuel pump ONLY works when the glow plugs are held on with the spring switch OR when the engine is running, bleeding the fuel system is a real PITA.  To successfully bleed the system, as discussed here and finally summarized by Ken Heyman (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2884.0), it's MUCH easier to run the fuel pump without the engine on, and why would you want to have to energize the glow plugs when you bleed the engine?

Another one of those UNFORESEEN CIRCUMSTANCES and unintended consequences as a result of a "design improvement" that makes things worse, not better.