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Author Topic: Anchors & TEST Results of New Generation Anchors EXCELLENT & Important  (Read 50191 times)

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ken003

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Re: Anchors.
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2007, 11:08:11 AM »

Ray,
I am thinking of getting one of these Manson Supreme anchors.  What size is that shown in your photo?  I notice you do not use the long slot which doubles for a trip line.  I would worry about using it too.  Do you think there would be a problem drilling a hole in the top, wide part of the shovel for attaching a trip line?

Ken
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Gary

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Re: Anchors.
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2007, 11:15:50 AM »

Because the original Bruce anchor is difficult to locate for purchase I have elected to try a North Star Bruce Anchor.  I will report back in May but in the meantime you might check out their web site at <www.northstar-marinesupplies.com>

I purchased the stainless 33 lb model...it looks to be well made and very close to the original Bruce.

The company is located in Vancouver, Canada.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 11:17:02 AM by Gary »
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Gary Ambrose
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Ray & Sandy Erps

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Re: Anchors.
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2007, 11:28:31 AM »

Ken,

That long trip line slot looks like trouble waiting to happen to me.  We have occasionally rigged trip lines with previous anchors and I think with this one I'll probably just tie a line to the rollbar.  We bought the 40-sumthin' pounder.  One thing that impressed me with it over some other new anchors is that it's not ballasted with additional weight so that it will set better.  That means all the weight can be used for surface area holding power.  Take a close look at the dimensions of the model your considering to make sure it fits on your anchor roller.  The shank on the one we got has an interference fit with our setup, something we'll put up with. (although no slop in rough conditions)
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Ray & Sandy Erps,
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La Conner WA

mainesail

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Re: Anchors.
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2007, 12:07:51 PM »

Hi All,

Even though I don't own a 34 I do watch your forums because there are a lot of similarities between the C-310 and the 34's. Unfortunately the C-310 assoc is lacking so I frequent the C-36 and 34 sites regularly.

[Added bu Stu Sept.1, 2014:  the C310 skippers can be found here:  http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/forumdisplay.php?f=111]

I would recommend seriously looking at a Manson Supreme, Rocna or a Steel Spade (not the aluminum version I have one and it stinks compared to the steel version I also have). I've owned just about every anchor made and still own them. My CQR never even gets dusted off any more and my Bruce is on loan to a buddy who never anchors. The Delta is not a bad anchor but also nowhere as good as either a Rocna, Spade or Manson Supreme. I anchor out a lot and my Manson Supreme is now my primary anchor. I actually physically test my anchors and put them through the paces and compare them to each other. I also keep an anchor log book with scope, wind, depth, bottom type and anchor used for each anchoring. The Bruce and CQR were good anchors a long time ago, and still are, but when compared to some of the newer designs they just don't compete in the same arena.

Below is a video of my Manson Supreme in a very hard, intertidal zone showing off how well it penetrates hard bottom types. I drive my truck on this intertidal zone to launch my brothers Boston Whaler! When I tested My CQR here it wouldn't even bite even after four tries. I have no affiliation to Manson or any other manufacturer & these tests were done for my own piece of mind and to get a better understanding of how an anchor works on the bottom.. In the picture below you can see why the Manson sets and holds so well. The cross section of this anchor is sharpened like an arrow head. In my 37 years of boating I've NEVER had an anchor set so definitively and abruptly as the Manson Supreme or hold as well! I can literally drag my CQR 25 around a cove with upwards of a 10:1 scope, and my boat in reverse, at 80% throttle. My 33# Bruce is similar but does finally set and hold.

Home Made Mason Supreme Video
http://www.dropshots.com/day.php?userid=86200&cdate=20060313&ctime=160000


I'm not trying to slam the CQR, Delta or Bruce as they are all ok anchors. It's just that the Spade's, Manson Supreme's and Rocna's are excellent anchors and after driving a BMW I could never see going back to a Pontiac if you know what I mean.. I can't tell you how many CQR's I dove on, over the years, that were basically being used as a rock connected to chain. Probably 60% of the CQR & Bruce anchors I have witnessed on the bottom, in coves or anchorages, have been sitting on their side with about three inches of the tip barely caught in the bottom. I'm not saying CQR's  can't be set, they can & I used one for 6 years, they just require more skill and patience to set, & set properly, than the newer designs. From my musings over the years I would have to say that close to 50% of boaters, both power and sail, but mostly power don't even know how to set an anchor or attempt to! I've witnessed lots of catastrophic, vacation ending, dragings leading to serious hull damage over the years and every one still haunts me. Perhaps I take anchoring a little to seriously but the cost of an anchor is small compared to a six figure boat. This picture http://www.rocna.com/press/press_0612_wm_ym_testing.pdf is exactly why NOT to use a CQR. When diving on mine this was the set more often than not even after multiple attempts at getting it to set. Click on the link and look at the picture of the CQR. It's laying on it's side and is NOT set. For a CQR to be properly set it must be vertical like a plow!!!!!! This picture typifies the "rock on a rope" most sailors experience, but never realize, due to the relatively benign summer conditions we mostly encounter. The funny thing is this was a picture that was displayed in Sail Magazine representing anchor tests! Usually the rock on the rope holds till morning giving a false sense of security until a breeze pops up.

I use my Fortress as a dedicated stern anchor a job for which this anchor is perfect. It's very light, to set out in the dinghy with, and holds like pit bull in one direction. It can be tough to set on a hard bottom due mostly to its weight but I have never not been able to not get it to set after a few tries. The anchors on my boat are a Fortress (stern), Manson Supreme (primary) and Spade S-80 (backup). The CQR collects dust in my shed, the Bruce is on loan to a friend with a power boat and the Delta I let go with one of my boats I sold.

Both the Manson and the Spade cost less than the CQR but the Manson has much more surface are per pound than the Delta, CQR, Bruce or Spade because it does not need added lead "tip weight" like the Delta, Spade or CQR.

The anchors pictured below are my CQR 25 lb, Manson Supreme 24 lb & a Spade 35 lb. Look at the surface area of these anchors and you'll see that a Manson has as much surface area as most 35lb anchors yet it only weighs 24 pounds! The sharpened tip also penetrates eel grass and weeds far better than any anchor I have ever used.

Picking the right ground tackle is only half the battle. You also need good technique, proper scope and you MUST set your anchor by either back winding the sails or using the full reverse power of your motor other wise you have a rock on a rope and might as well be using a cinder block.



-Maine Sail
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising



« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 04:43:46 PM by Stu Jackson »
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-Maine Sail
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Joe Kern

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Re: Anchors.
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2007, 02:16:56 PM »

Thanks for the great info.
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Joe Kern
2005 Catalina 34MKII
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Merritt Island, Fl

canuck

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Re: Anchors.
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2007, 07:09:56 PM »

I upgraded to a Maxwell 800 installed from the factory on our 2004 and also added a down switch during commissioning. We have 300' of 5/16 BBB chain and a 33 lb Bruce (the real thing). We do not move. The planet revolves around us! The three blade prop and M35 really set us. Here in the Pacific Northwest "Brucey" is right at home. We use lots of rode.
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captran

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Re: Anchors.
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2007, 09:35:50 PM »

we use 3/8 HT chain, about 35 feet, with half inch line.  I'm tempted to get a swivel, as the shackle catches on the roller.  But I liked the higher breaking strength of the shackle.  The system held on with the 33 bruce for 12 hours of 50 plus knots in the soft sand of Great Sale Cay, with about a 3 to 4 foot chop, coming from the south.  Also held well on the Bahama Bank several miles from West End.  The sand is harder there.    Have a FX 27 also, with equal chain and rode, as a "storm anchor".  Now that we're in the NW cruising summers, the conditions seem easier to deal with.  It may be overkill, but I like waking up where I went to sleep!
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Randy Thies
Voyager  1997 #1345
was Florida, now Anacortes Wa

Chris Martinson

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Re: Anchors.
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2007, 05:37:06 PM »

Regarding the rode - instead on using a sental....I have about 30 feet of chain then about 20 of line and then another 10 feet of chain and then line (swivels at the connections)....this has worked well for me both in sand in NJ and in Long Island Sound...for what its worth.

Chris
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Ron Hill

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Re: Anchors.
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2007, 03:02:59 PM »

Chris : What you're using is the same principle as a sentinel. Glad that you mentioned it so other readers know there's another option. 
You also mentioned the swivel/s which is VERY important - especially when you're using more than about 15 ft of chain.  Line will twist, chain will NOT!   :wink:
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Alain P.

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Re: Anchors. relative merits of Delta, CQR and Bruce.
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2007, 06:01:57 PM »

I didn’t came to this forum for a long time, as I was traveling and it is not always easy to find cyber-cafés in South America..

I fully agree with reedbr when  he says: Sometimes anchors are like religion.  Everybody has their own beliefs.

Reading the whole thread, I’ve seen two different opinions.. the conservative one.. and the evolutive one.. Please allow me to give here my own opinion, and I apologize if this will be often opposed to the one of many participants:

If I first fully agree with you,reedbr, I don’t agree anymore when you say :  “Danforth It is my primary and I sleep well at anchor” – NEVER use a Danforth as a main anchor.. and don’t sleep if you are using one.. As Stu Jackson righly says :
 Danforths usually can't reset after a current shift. .Danforth can make a good secondary anchor, but not a main one..

I also disagree with gtrbone Bruce/Bruce-Type anchors did the best for the money” are you selecting your anchors only on the “money” criteria?? Or do you want the BEST anchor to equip your boat??.

I also disagree (quite often) with Ron Hill – “Make sure that you use a swivel between the anchor and the chain so the anchor can do it's OWN thing!! You also mentioned the swivel/s which is VERY important” Beware that most swivels doesn’t have at all the same breaking strength that the one of your chain.. They often will be the “weak” link.. and, with the exception of bearing swivels, they will NEVER turn under load..

Ted Pounds Many serious cruisers use all chain. - No Ted.. If they are really serious,  they should always insert any “elastic” line,, either by using a mixed line (Chain & rope) or by using an efficient  snubber..

Ron Hill I also send down a 15 lb. sentinel – Most of you will learn a lot about your anchoring rode on: http://alain.fraysse.free.fr/sail/rode/rode_b.htm and it is said that a sentinel has only a marginal effect.. Then I fully agree with Chris Martinson instead on using a sentinel,....use about 30 feet of chain, much easier to handle and better to avoid chafing the rope on the seabed..

Again Ron I disagree with you when you say..  I like the Bruce not only for it's holding.. as the Bruce is one of the anchors with the lowest holding..

Mike and Joanne Stimmler If anyone knows of a source for Bruce anchors please post it. Hi Mike and Joanne.. There is no more source for the genuine Bruce.. as Bruce did stop the manufacturing.. and they didn’t stop because of the availability of cheaper clones, but because they know that this type of anchor is now obsolete..

John Langford What about the Lewmar Claw which is the same as a Bruce but very reasonably priced.
Gary I purchased the stainless 33 lb model...it looks to be well made and very close to the original Bruce.

No clones are exactly similar to the genuine Bruce, and a minor change can completely change the overall behavior of one anchor.. and if the clones are cheaper.. this is because they are manufactured in China.. and the quality of the steel used can be questionable??

Then I can’t more agree with Ray & Sandy Erps “I was leaning towards one of the new generation anchors,.. I used to worry whether our anchor would set on the first try or not.  Now I worry whether we'll be able to get the anchor back up after setting because it sets so firmly. “[


And with mainesail "The Delta is not a bad anchor but also nowhere as good as either a Rocna, Spade or Manson Supreme. It's just that the Spade's, Manson Supreme's and Rocna's are excellent anchors and after driving a BMW I could never see going back to a Pontiac if you know what I mean.."

And I would never exchange my BMW back for a Pontiac (Although some years ago, the Pontiac was one of the best car available..)
 :D
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catalover

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Re: Anchors.
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2007, 10:12:12 AM »

I spent 2 years cruising with a cqr as my primary anchor and 120' of 5/16 high test chain 200' of 5/8 rode.  I always set my anchor proper, used a rope snubber and never had a problem.  The only time I switched anchors was to a danforth in Suva because the bottom was soft mud.   I would recommend only using top name anchors and plenty of chain and never let your rope touch the bottom. Make sure that you learn how to use your anchors and what conditions they work best in.  There is no substitute for plenty of chain on a well set anchor.
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Mike and Joanne Stimmler

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Re: Anchors.
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2007, 04:00:26 PM »

I finally gave up on getting a Bruce anchor and have ordered and just received a Rocna 20 (44lb) anchor from Anchorsource in Florida. I was looking for something I could use as a storm anchor and also as my primary anchor so now I'm thinking about which combo of chain and rode to use and am considering about 40 ft of chain with either 200 or 300 ft of rope. I'm not decided on the size and type of chain or rope as I'm not familiar with the diferences of the HT and BBB. Is anyone using a rope to chain splice or is this only needed if you have a winch? (I don't)
I was surprised on how the anchor was shipped. I got home from work tuesday and here's this anchor sitting by the front door. No box, just a big old honkin' anchor with the shipping label stuck on the flukes and some bubble wrap on the tip. Anyone else had this experience? Maybe this is the norm.
I may have over done it with the size on this but I feel that having a DEPENDABLE anchor is a primary safety issue.

Any comments welcome
Mike
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Mike and Joanne Stimmler
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Ray & Sandy Erps

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Re: Anchors.
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2007, 07:39:17 PM »

Our Mansion Supreme (Rocna knockoff) came in a box.  We have it on the end of 300 feet of 5/16 chain.  On our previous boat (C-34) we had a Bruce on 50 feet of chain spliced to 200 feet of nylon rode with electrical tape wrapped around the eye splice to take the brunt of the chafe.  This did make it go over the windlass easier which we really only needed occasionally when anchoring in deep water.  I think it's more typical to have a thimble in the eye splice and then use a shackle to attach it to the chain but that does make a bulky transition when using a windlass and also puts another fitting into the mix for another possible failure point.

I think the first time you anchor with your Rocna you'll be pleasantly surprised by its setting characteristics.  It's night and day difference in our experience.  I hear the same kind enthusiasm about the Spade.
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Ray & Sandy Erps,
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La Conner WA

Alain P.

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Re: Anchors.
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2007, 03:17:54 PM »

I think the first time you anchor with your Rocna you'll be  surprised by its setting characteristics. 

http://www.svintothelight.com/Feb0706.html


The new Rocna was covered with a huge clump of mud/sand/grass

The other thing of note that happened during this time period was that we experienced our first "anchor dragging" incident.  On Saturday (Feb 4) we had a strong frontal passage with winds 25 knots, gusting to 35 knots.  That combined with pretty rough water conditions in the bay made things 'a bit dodgy', as our British/South African friends would say.  We were out in the cockpit as the storm really got going and noticed a neighboring boat moving at a rapid pace to the rear toward another boat. 

The owners of the boat that was dragging anchor had gone ashore earlier in the day, and the boat that was getting ready to get hit only had the teenage son of the family that cruises on the boat aboard.  I was getting ready to go help the boy 'defend' his boat and try to stop the other boat from dragging when I noticed that we were closer to our neighbor to the stern than we had been earlier......

we had dragged and were dragging.  

We were dragging slowly vs. the other boat, which looked like someone was driving the boat swiftly in reverse.  Dahleen and I started our motor and motored into the wind of the storm for about an hour and a half, until is subsided a little and we could re-anchor. 

AS I PULLED THE ROCNA UP TO RE-ANCHOR, IT WAS COVERED WITH A HUGE CLUMP OF MUD/SAND/GRASS, SO RATHER THAN DIGGING IN, IT WAS PLOWING ALONG THE GRASSY BOTTOM.   A grassy bottom is not the ideal holding ground to anchor in, but you play the cards you are dealt. 

During the course of the storm, 5 boats around us all dragged and had to either put out a second anchor or redeploy their primary anchor.  We found a patch of sand to drop the primary anchor in and also put out our secondary, a 33 lb. Bruce.  I also increased our scope to 9 to 1.  I think this will work for all but the worst of storms. 
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Ted Pounds

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Re: Anchors.
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2007, 06:55:15 PM »

Anecdotes do not make good science.  For good, unbiased info on the many anchors on the market I suggest reading Practical Sailor.  They have run a bunch of controlled anchor comparisons.  They are the "Consumer Reports" of sailing as they accept no advertising.
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Ted Pounds
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