Messages

she : Please list your hull # and production year !!  I'm sure that Noah has ASSUMED that you have a MK 1 C34 and NOT a 1986 production boat!!

A few thoughts

Noah didn't have to assume anything, Ron, the OP stated he had an aft tank.

Thank you to all who posted their data points!!

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I found Rod Collins adds three other data points:
...a 1987 Universal M-25 draws roughly 225A +/- depending upon temp and other factors. This is the in-rush load though.
and:
the starter [on a Westerbeke 4-cyl] drew slightly over 640A during the peak inrush. [no mention of the avg draw] and later  the "average" starting load [presumably the same engine] was 286A. on a 20F day with the bank/bilge at 32F.

And also from Rod:
Universal / Westerbeke BATTERY CABLE REQUIREMENTS (wire length round trip)
2GA = 8'
1GA = 10'
1/0 = 14'
2/0 = 18'
3/0 = 22'
4/0 = 28'

Everyone should agree that proper-size cables equal easier starting compared to OEM #4 (perhaps that's why some need to add the (IMO) dumb preheat solenoid "fix".)

Jack,
Rod discusses sizing battery fuses and the 150% rule here:
https://pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_fusing

Cheers,
Ken

Thanks, Ken.

1.  For some of you who are new to our Forum, Rod Collins IS MAINE SAIL, who we refer to often in the Forum.  His pbase website is the original version of much of his work, and his marinehowto 'site has his newer material.  Ken and others and I often urge you to spend valuable time there, since Rod discusses interesting boat electrical issues, some specific to our Catalina series of mid-size boats as well as other  issues, like programming Balmar regulators and choosing & wiring battery chargers.  Many of his contributions are linked in our Electrical 101 Topic thread.

2.  Pre-heat solenoid - I do not believe this feature has anything to do with starting wiring sizing, and also don't think it is a "dumb fix."  [I assume you mean the glow plug solenoid --- https://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Faster%2C_More_Efficient_Glow_Plug_Heating_with_a_Solenoid] Based on your comment, Ken, I'd ask what you mean by: "Fix for what?"  All it does is reduce dependency on large current through small wires to the cockpit panel and back.  IIRC, these solenoids were actually added right to the engines in later models.  Those of us old geezers with M25s added the relays ourselves.  Why do you think it is dumb?

Ben

Is she an XP?

Ken, with that hull # it is most likely an M25XP.  Unless someone changed it out, it came from the factory with an XP.

If you were sizing wire & fuses would you size it for the peaks at 220 Amps or the average at 167 Amps? The average is close to what my Victron Smart Shut reports (150 amps). I tend to think the average is what you would use, but I'm prepared to learn something.

Thanks

Jack 

Jack, don't overthink this.  From the earliest Catalina 34 boats, the wiring from the batteries to the starter was #4.  Some would argue that this is now considered "horribly undersized."  But for years. Maine Sail has been making the point that while the current may be high it is for an extremely short duration.  My #4 wiring is still in place and I have had no trouble starting my engine (it's an M25, but essentially the same electrical load as an XP's starter).  Catalina has increased the wire size in later models, although I do not know specifically what it is.

[a red switch like the one that is on the main panel]

Does anyone have a switch in the little cabinet in the head. Mine had a red switch like the one that is on the main panel but noting was hooked to it. I think the 110 power from the shore plug maybe goes to the switch and then to the main panel. because nothing was hooked up were guessing.

Not OEM, definitely.

Glad to hear you're making progress in all the fun fields of play:  woodworking, plumbing and electrical.  Ain't life grand? 

Here is The Decoder Ring (so you don't have to click on a link to another website)

Kloeber Engine History

On Mon, Sep 9, 2024 David wrote:
@Ken
You stated that my motor is a Westerbeke. It says Universal on it. Was Westerbeke doing some sub manufacturing for Universal?
***

David

Medalist Universal Motors in Oshkosh WI built the original Universals, e.g., Atomic 4, 5411, M-18, 5421, M-25, M-25XP, M-35, M4-30, etc.
In 1990 Westerbeke purchased and eventually moved Universal production to its Avon MA location (current location is Tauton MA.)

Regarding Universal model numbers: After the purchase, Wb continued to produce the same M-25XPs, etc., (built using Kubota engines) but transitioned to manufacturing them (in 1993) with the designation "A" - e.g., M-25XPA, M-35A, etc., which had these mods:

1) Engine color changed from Copper-Bronze to silver and finally to Ice Blue.

2) Changed the engine wiring to its "Westerbeke standard" (to mimic the "Westerbeke propulsion engine" wiring that it used since forever.)  These have the convoluted wiring that's a nightmare to troubleshoot when an engine alarm fails (it's frequently due to the harness.)  The harness is also more intricate and difficult to work on than it should be.  KISS. (But Wb probably saves twenty dollars per engine when installing it.)

3) Added onto the "A" series engines:
(a) An on-engine, 20-a Circuit Breaker (in part it protects the feed up to the cockpit panel);
(b) A Glow-Plug-Preheat Solenoid;
(c) A fail-safe shutdown; i.e., cuts power to the fuel pump if oil pressure is lost (which doesn't always work/shut down on all models and (IMO) is pretty useless and troubleshooting becomes a nightmare if the harness fails and the fuel pump won't run);
(d) Modified where/how the Oil Pressure Alarm Switch is located/configured,
(e) Provided for an Oil Pressure Sender (a Gauge is optional on the Wb "Universal" panels -- apparently, Catalina never "noticed the benefit" of an Oil Pressure Gauge);
(f) A High-Temp Switch to the Thermostat Cap.

4) Produced (and still produces) a "(C) series" -- e.g., your M-25XPA(C) and now, e.g., the M-25XPB(C), M-35B(C)).  "C" engines are wired to "C"atalina's spec (so the harness mates with Catalina cockpit panels instead of "Universal" brand panels, which are identical to, and simply rebranded, "Westerbeke" panels.)  One difference with the "(C)" standard is that Westerbeke/Universal panels have different engine alarm wiring (a second cable and plug, whereas Catalina's engine and alarm wiring pass through a single harness plug.)  There are probably other differences but (although I've studied both the Wb and Wb "(C)" schematics) I haven't looked for every difference -- I just know about the alarm from the practical aspect of wiring both types of panels.

5) The "A" (and now "B") engines continue to use the 9-pin harness plug, but it is higher quality than the disastrous (reportedly "hot glue") Gummy Bear plugs that Catalina used to mate to the Oshkosh Universal engines and is also on the back of the OEM Catalina Panels (by Seaward.)

In 1996-1998 Westebeke transitioned from the Universal "A" series to the "B" engines, i.e., M-35B, M-40B, M-50B, M-25XPB**, M3-20B** (** current models.)  The "B" series continue with essentially the same mods as on the
"A" engines.  Although Wb piggy backed onto the same model numbers it's just marketing -- although they are still built using Kubota engines, the only commonality between the "B" engines and former (Oshkosh and "A") engines, is the number of cylinders.

One owner I know, when repowering from an Oshkosh M-25 to a Westerbeke/Universal M-25XPB, ripped out the Westerbeke wiring and rewired it to the "old" system.  Much simpler and (IMO) better!

The text above comes from here: https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/message/114243

Please note that this thread is now 22 YEARS OLD!  Glad we're all still around here for it. 

Anyway, I wrote this in my earlier post: "I installed our speakers on our Mark I in the vertical panel below the helmsman's seat..."

If I had a do-over I would never put holes like that in my boat.  While the sound from those 6 inch speakers is awesome, especially with the lazarette being such a big boomer, it just makes no sense in retrospect.  I never can crank them up to the threshold of pain anyway, and replacing them when the plastic covers get all dried up from UV even though the speakers may be working fine, or when one speaker goes scratchy or buzzy, is a PITA requiring a trip into said lazarette.

Smaller exterior speakers under perch seats would be my choice.

I also suggest consideration of other speaker choices than PolyPlaner.  They have "popular" name recognition but there are other choices out there for better speakers with improved frequency response.  IIRC, most Bluetooth speakers beat PP hands-down.  I personally haven't done the homework, but you should consider doing it.  I'm not suggesting BT speakers, although come to think about it, not a bad choice to save on wiring!    Depends on how your stereo is set up, right?

Stu
I'm not at all following what you are claiming. 

Are you saying that Universal never made
(!) ANY "A" or "A(C") engine (e.g., M-35A(C)?
Or
(2) specifically an M-25XPA or M-25XPA(C) engine?

No, Ken, I'm not "claiming" anything. 

What I wrote was:  "I get disheartened by this "XPA" thing, because it confuses the issue of an XPB which is a completely different engine than an M25 or M25XP. If he would just type M25XP space space space A(C), it would be much clearer, i.e., M25XP  A - there IS an XPB engine, there IS NOT an XPA engine!!!"

So, Ken, instead of you typing M25XPA, please type M25XP A.

That's all. 

[Kloeber Engine History]

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by the color she looks like an M-35A but the wiring isn't 35A.  Did Universal use that color before Westerbeke changed the wiring?

Sometimes with Ken one requires a scorecard or translator decoder ring.

On another boating forum, I just recently "discovered" the secret to Ken's invention of "A" series engines.  After reading it, I noted:  "I get disheartened by this "XPA" thing, because it confuses the issue of an XPB which is a completely different engine than an M25 or M25XP. If he would just type M25XP space space space A(C), it would be much clearer, i.e., M25XP  A - there IS an XPB engine, there IS NOT an XPA engine!!!" and "My take is: So, your M25XPA(C) is simply an M25XP painted grey with a Catalina cockpit panel and associated wiring."  I don't consider the "A" features Ken notes blow added to be "of the engine" - they are warning buzzer type things, not the beast of the engine itself.




Here it is:

Kloeber Engine History

https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/message/114243

On Mon, Sep 9, 2024 David wrote:
@Ken
You stated that my motor is a Westerbeke. It says Universal on it. Was Westerbeke doing some sub manufacturing for Universal?
***
David

Medalist Universal Motors in Oshkosh WI built the original Universals, e.g., Atomic 4, 5411, M-18, 5421, M-25, M-25XP, M-35, M4-30, etc.
In 1990 Westerbeke purchased and eventually moved Universal production to its Avon MA location (current location is Tauton MA.)

Regarding Universal model numbers: After the purchase, Wb continued to produce the same M-25XPs, etc., (built using Kubota engines) but transitioned to manufacturing them (in 1993) with the designation "A" - e.g., M-25XPA, M-35A, etc., which had these mods:

1) Engine color changed from Copper-Bronze to silver and finally to Ice Blue.

2) Changed the engine wiring to its "Westerbeke standard" (to mimic the "Westerbeke propulsion engine" wiring that it used since forever.)  These have the convoluted wiring that's a nightmare to troubleshoot when an engine alarm fails (it's frequently due to the harness.)  The harness is also more intricate and difficult to work on than it should be.  KISS. (But Wb probably saves twenty dollars per engine when installing it.)

3) Added onto the "A" series engines:
(a) An on-engine, 20-a Circuit Breaker (in part it protects the feed up to the cockpit panel);
(b) A Glow-Plug-Preheat Solenoid;
(c) A fail-safe shutdown; i.e., cuts power to the fuel pump if oil pressure is lost (which doesn't always work/shut down on all models and (IMO) is pretty useless and troubleshooting becomes a nightmare if the harness fails and the fuel pump won't run);
(d) Modified where/how the Oil Pressure Alarm Switch is located/configured,
(e) Provided for an Oil Pressure Sender (a Gauge is optional on the Wb "Universal" panels -- apparently, Catalina never "noticed the benefit" of an Oil Pressure Gauge);
(f) A High-Temp Switch to the Thermostat Cap.

4) Produced (and still produces) a "(C) series" -- e.g., your M-25XPA(C) and now, e.g., the M-25XPB(C), M-35B(C)).  "C" engines are wired to "C"atalina's spec (so the harness mates with Catalina cockpit panels instead of "Universal" brand panels, which are identical to, and simply rebranded, "Westerbeke" panels.)  One difference with the "(C)" standard is that Westerbeke/Universal panels have different engine alarm wiring (a second cable and plug, whereas Catalina's engine and alarm wiring pass through a single harness plug.)  There are probably other differences but (although I've studied both the Wb and Wb "(C)" schematics) I haven't looked for every difference -- I just know about the alarm from the practical aspect of wiring both types of panels.

5) The "A" (and now "B") engines continue to use the 9-pin harness plug, but it is higher quality than the disastrous (reportedly "hot glue") Gummy Bear plugs that Catalina used to mate to the Oshkosh Universal engines and is also on the back of the OEM Catalina Panels (by Seaward.)

In 1996-1998 Westebeke transitioned from the Universal "A" series to the "B" engines, i.e., M-35B, M-40B, M-50B, M-25XPB**, M3-20B** (** current models.)  The "B" series continue with essentially the same mods as on the
"A" engines.  Although Wb piggy backed onto the same model numbers it's just marketing -- although they are still built using Kubota engines, the only commonality between the "B" engines and former (Oshkosh and "A") engines, is the number of cylinders.

One owner I know, when repowering from an Oshkosh M-25 to a Westerbeke/Universal M-25XPB, ripped out the Westerbeke wiring and rewired it to the "old" system.  Much simpler and (IMO) better!

Noah, he said "front tank" so he could have meant the strbd one.  I can understand your confusion.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 What is the factory standard water tank configuration and how did it change with the years built?

Kevin—Do you have three water tanks? Aft, Starboard and V-berth?

Noah,

The first boats came with fwd and strbd tanks,1986 initial models.  Around hull #200 in late 1986 they stopped with the fwd tank and put in the aft tank, keeping the strbd tank.  I have #224 with an aft tank.  It's been aft & strbd ever since.

The only thing that seems to have changed is the strbd tank fill point.  I looked at the Mark II manual and it's not as clear as the Mark I manual was.  I did that when krafty noted a bow fill point.  That bow fill is a long way away from the strbd tank.

I added a label underneath it with the hours where the original stopped. I add the two together to get total engine hours.

Good Idea. Would also note in the maintenance log. I'm thinking if it were necessary to add a Hobbs gage (hour meter) I would add 2, the extra one would be resettable and I would zero it at fuel fills.  They aren't very expensive or very large.  It's possible that they make one with a dual function.
Jim

That's one way.   I just keep a log.  An easier way is to just make a note of when you fill and add 20 hours and then go buy 10 gallons (for an M25 series).

Found this thread. My 2007 had a water fill fitting forward on port side. Where is the other one? I filled on port side but am out of water now I think. Thanks.

There is no water fill on the port side on Mark Is.

Dietrich,

You may have missed this:

Fuel Starvation and The Obscure Check Ball Valve
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,10681.0.html

The electric fuel pump on my boat runs all the time the ignition switch is on.  The only time that pump stops is on later boats and only when the glow plugs are energized.

The engine fuel filter is reported to be 25-30 micons.

Fuel Filtration 101 (with both primary Racor and secondary engine filter identification)
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,1124.0.html and http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6475.0.html

I discussed some of this here, page 4, reply #52:

https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3347.45.html

Bob, in your case I think a few pictures would be very helpful for those of us who want to help you.

Gelcoat seems to be as arcane to some folks as electricity!    I used to think so, too, until I learned it is simply like two-step painting or mixing two part epoxy.  Les Troyer, C36 Commodore showed me how.  He had the right tools, i.e., liquids.  It's been over 5 years, so forgive me for forgetting.  But a little research will unearth what you need.  Most folks obsess over colour matching.  Unless you have a blue hull, it is not that difficult, because white is white and after a few months in the sun it'd be hard to see the difference [except for perfectionists].  Good luck.

Ken is right. That diagram has an ammeter, which your Mark 1-1/2 boat certainly does NOT have.