Messages

Stu and Jon [and John, who has come to the party since I first posted the following], thank you for your detailed postings on this topic.  I hope many other readers are making decisions about battery chargers and can benefit also from your messages.  In hopes of buying some time to make a decision on a new charger and battery monitoring system, we plan to test (as suggested in a recent posting on the carbon monoxide thread) to see whether the old Flyback 20-3 can safely be used pro tem.  Work has started on an energy budget, following your precedent, Stu.  Nigel Calder's book, the WM catalogue, and your other suggestions for reading are next.  So any decision on the new equipment is a ways off.  Jon, thanks for the information about the new TrueCharger2s.  I hadn't heard of them.

Thank you, Randy.

We do need a little time to make the charger decision, and it would be helpful to test to learn whether we could, meanwhile, use the old Flyback 20-3 charger without cooking the new 4D house batteries.

The charger has been disconnected for days now, during which time we have had no alarms sounding.

So I will follow your suggestion and test the batteries -- with a Fluke 117 digital multi-meter that recently seduced me. 

Am I right in thinking that what you are proposing is something like the following?

• check the battery terminal voltage
• disconnect or switch off all but absolutely essential power users
• charge the batteries for a relatively short period of time using the Flyback 20-3
• discontinue charging and let the batteries sit for a while
• check the battery terminal voltage again
• continue charging the batteries
• again discontinue charging and let the batteries sit for while
• check the battery terminal voltage again
• repeat until the batteries reach a voltage above which they do not rise or 14.1 volts, whichever is the higher and if it is 14.1 volts don't use the Flyback 20-3 any more at all

Stu and Jon, you two have given us Hali-ites lots to think about.  Thank you for putting so much into your messages.

Nothing I say in this message [which has been further amended since first posting] is intended to suggest that I have thought my way through what you have posted, but doing so may require more reading and thinking than I can do immediately.  Meanwhile, I will give a bit more "Hali-specific" information that might fill out the picture.

Currently, Hali has the two new deep cycle marine/rv wet cell 4Ds (with a 1-2-Both switch) and one (new last year) wet cell starting battery. 

Every one of the new 4Ds cells were found yesterday (May 29) to be low on fluid.  Interstate (the battery manufacturer) recommended that we top up the cells with distilled water and not with more sulphuric acid, so we did that.  We used just over 3 liters of water over the 12 cells, with each getting about the same amount, I think.  As mentioned previously, other than one cell, unfortunately we had not checked the fluid levels when we installed the new batteries on May 13.  Yesterday, the electrical panel analogue voltmeters measured one of the new 4D batteries at 12 volts, but my new Fluke 117 multi-meter measured it at 13 volts. (Stu, this seems reasonable vindication of your doubt about the accuracy of analogue voltmeters!)

I don't know what kind of alternator Hali has.  She is out tonight, so I can't check.  (As you will have no trouble gleaning, the electrical system -- except the starting-glow plugs-fuel pump circuit that we had a long thread about last year - is not something I have much worked on since we got Hali in March, 2007.)

The Flyback 20-3 charger aboard Hali is now turned off and, I suspect, will never be turned on again. (We are beginning the "new battery charger" debate.)  Hali is not plugged in today. (We are listening to the plugger-unplugger debate here with interest.)

Three of Hali's four owners live or work within five minutes drive of Hali...so we can check on her often and do, at least in summer.  From May through September, one of us probably visits Hali at least every other day.  From October through April, once a week might be the norm.  The marina is small, without a lot of people about, so that, except in summer, we couldn't count on anyone else observing anything wrong at Hali within time to do anything about it. 

One of our owners works in a stationary diesel supply business and so has access, in case of urgency, to good technical help...but this probably does not extend to system design.

As a result of having four owners to pay for things, we are not too fussed about the cost of things.  As between quality and price, we would usually decide on quality.  With four sets of owners, we also value up-time and not having to do a repair again soon.

One of my co-owners and I are do-it-yourselfers.  The other two co-owners are not generally involved in maintenance.  We only involve professionals for things we DIYers really can't do ourselves. (This doesn't mean we are qualified...just somewhat persistent, time allowing.)

On the straight TruePower 40 versus XC question, my buddy who designs power supply systems got back to me.  His response (and it may be only the first in a longer dialogue) was, I think, from the system perspective without considering, as you have recommended, Stu, our specific needs and intentions for Hali, which I did not tell him about.  He wrote:  "The new one [XC] is better.   Consider 50 amp version.  You need extra temperature sensors (it comes with one you should have one per battery).  There is an optional 'intelligent shunt' that will allow you to monitor usage."

Regards.

Does anyone have experience with what is apparently a new Xantrex offering, the XC, which one of Hali's co-owners, in discussion with a local marine supply shop owner, has had recommended to us as an updated and "smarter" version of the Xantrex Truecharge 40 battery charger?

Speaking of lions, Ken. [No, I mean Jon! Thanks for the correction, Jon.] Or maybe Christians.  You may have no limbs left when the "unpluggers" are finished with you.  Having been a "plugger" for the past year, there is part of me that is heartened by your stand...it plugs for you.  Officially?  I am on the fence.  Your vindication would only be confirmation that I was dumb lucky.  All the same...good luck.

Added later: Thanks, Stu. I've looked at your power budget .pdf.  I've dimly thought of doing such a power analysis for Hali.  You know, the trouble with this site is it keeps suggesting really good things to do that there will never be time enough to do.  On another point, for a leading "unplugger", your response to Ken was decidely temperate!  Are you by any chances thinking of hopping on the fence?

Stu, one of my buddies (obviously not yet consulted by yours truly) is an inverter/power controller designer. Every once in a while, I have heard him muttering about various of the Xantrex devices, sometimes favourably, sometimes not so favourably, so I thought I would consult him on the choice though I saw favourable references on our c34 site to the Truepower charger.  Of course, I am not sure that my buddy will be approaching the question from a sailor's point of view.

You asked how our four owners use Hali.  It is probably too early to say.  We only acquired the boat in March, 2007.  Last summer we cruised her little.  Our use hasn't settled down yet.  Having said that, my predilection when cruising is never to overnight at a dock, to anchor out always, and to conserve power fanatically.  Typical Scottish behavior, I would say.  On the other hand, most of the other owners are not power-conservationists and, I suspect, are more willing -- or even keen -- to tie up overnight when they can.  There has been some expressed disbelief when I have doubted (without the benefit of a power analysis) that we can cruise for long and use the fridge full-time!

At Hali this morning:

• no alarms sounding
• CO detector #1 (in the aft compartment) reading 0 but "peak reading" - that is highest reading since last taking the peak reading or last repowering the unit - was 207, above the OSHA "never exceed" limit (but, admittedly, the monitor might not be and I suspect is not recording CO levels but recording something else).
• CO detector #2 (in the forward berth compartment) reading 0 and showing a peak reading of 38 (it was powered up about a week ago)
• no smell of propane
• slight acrid smell when settee cushion lifted above house battery compartment
• every battery cell was low on fluid
• boat had been quite buttoned up
• I opened all the hatches....but not for about 10 minutes (a sure sign that it must be CO affecting the brain!)
• based on Stu's post about the Flyback 20-3 and reading as he suggested about the Flyback 20-3 elsewhere at this site, I turned Hali's Flyback 20-3 battery charger off...perhaps permanently

Stu, to answer your question here about battery monitors aboard Hali, other than the two analogue voltmeters on the electrical panel and an analogue voltage meter at the pedestal, there are no battery monitoring devices aboard Hali.  We recognise this needs to change.

Randy, thanks for the battery gassing and hydrogen combustion information.  Wikipedia is darn useful, isn't it?  One of the many residual questions in this matter is whether a CO monitor that reads say 200 ppm in the presence of hydrogen is really indicating that there are 200 ppm of hydrogen.  Unlike the Electro Systems Inc. people who very promptly replied to my inquiry about their propane monitor,  Kidde has not yet responded to a request I sent from their website asking how to contact them about the CO alarm issues - so I have not yet been able to get information of this sort from someone knowledgeable about the CO monitor.

Jon, thanks for the link.  I see those little vents cost $3.99 each.  The price is right.

May 30 update: No alarms sounding.  Battery charger still off.

[requiring]

Stu:

Many thanks.  I appreciate the time you've spent on this topic here and elsewhere.

1.  I do have Calder's book...and think I have even read it once right through...but, in my brain, the study of batteries and electricity seems to fit into the same category as the study of weather: I can read about it but don't get it...and what I do learn doesn't stick.  The problem may be inadequate practical experience...but that can be remedied.

2.  Probably only shorepower charger and alternator from engine make sense for us with Hali.

3.  Battery Equalization - I'll read about this...and, yes, I unplugged that charger this morning.  Lionel and I have agreed today that we will get a better charger...which will give us something extra to investigate.

4. Different Owners - knowledge for safety.  Yes.  And on further thought (spurred by your concern on this point), it has struck me that we must be able to do something simple that will result in the batteries being charged in the best way without requiring that everyone understand why.  Generally, I write up a "standard operating procedure", once I think I understand something, and the owners are pretty good about reading the procedures but, perhaps like me with batteries, it doesn't always stick.  In the case of charging the batteries, several of us go to the boat often enough that, once we have an adequate battery monitor/charge controller, we could leave shore power disconnected (or just the battery charger off if we can live with Ken Juul's thousand natural shocks that shore power is heir to), then I - or anyone else who has read the "battery charging procedure" and wants to follow it - could run the battery charger when needed.

4a.  Other than the analogue voltmeters, we have no fixed battery monitor.

5.  Battery "tester" - If our analogue voltmeters were reading accurately, we were pressing the "dead battery" level occasionally with our old 4D's.  I may have run the windlass with one or both batteries into that zone.  I could kick myself for doing that if I did.  I don't suppose its too good for the windlass motor.

Thanks again, Stu.

Stu, I will head for Hali in the morning to turn "off" the Flyback 20-3.  That might interfere with the differential diagnosis of the alarm sounding problem....but perhaps save our new batteries.  The odd thing is, I think I had read those postings about the Flyback 20-3 a year or so ago, but put them out of mind as we were getting good life out of our then nearly five-year old 4Ds.  In fact, there never seemed to be a problem (would I know if there was one?) until we got the new 4Ds on May 13.  I hate to admit it, but we got the new batteries not for any well-considered reason other than that they [the old batteries] were five years old and we were getting nervous about using them through another cruising season.  We hadn't tested them [the old batteries] but I had noticed the windlass was slowing when [we] last used [it]. (And now the windlass doesn't work....I wonder whether there is a connection?  But it could be that the jury-rigged mechanical connection of leads I made last year has worked loose.)  Thanks for pointing me to the Flyback [20-3 Alltech] problems posts.   

Stu, thank you for starting a new thread with your post.  It seemed too good to bury in our carbon monoxide/propane gas/battery gas/???? discussion.

I am a dunce when it comes to batteries and electricity.  Can you help by answering some questions that arise for me on reading your post. [Later added note: Stu, on searching, I see that you have written elsewhere at this site about batteries and electrical issues. I am following up those posts now so please don't think you should write anything in answer to my questions here that you have written elsewhere. M]

You wrote: In all of our years with Aquavite and in earlier boats [celebrating our 25th year of sailing on SF Bay this past weekend], we never left our boats plugged in, and none of 'em sank!  The reason is basic:  we just do not know how poorly wired our neighbors' boats may be.  Stray electrical can come from a bad dock wiring design or installation [not in our marina, though] or from poorly wired other boats even to a good marina system.  We intend to have the zincs continue to do their work and not spend money on a new shaft or propeller if we can help it.

Question: Will you explain how having your own boat "plugged in" relates negatively (bad pun) to other boats' wiring, bad dock wiring, zincs doing their work.

You wrote: That said, I've learned a lot recently from John Nixon, a frequent contributor to this Message Board.  Once I [finally] installed our Link 2000, I learned two very important things:  1) my "energy budget" done in my head for the past ten years was pretty much right spot on (see: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3976.0.html); 2) my estimate of input TO the house bank FROM the various charging sources was NOT very good because I hadn't taken into account the acceptance rate of the batteries and the tapering off of the charging amperage even with a smart regulator and a smart three stage Freedom 15 inverter charger.

Question: are there generally just two charging sources: the [whatever it is - generator?] on the engine and the 110 volt charger?

You wrote: In discussions by email with John, as a result of what I term "Fridge Follies," wherein I was doing detective work on why our fridge would not restart during the second night at anchor, I learned two things:  1)  equalize your batteries regularly to avoid diminished performance [assuming your batteries are wet cells and your manufacturer says it's OK to do so];

Comment: I would ask about equalizing wet cell batteries but will hold off until after searching this website for postings on the subject.  At this point, I have no idea of how to do it.  If there isn't another thread dealing with this topic, I would be interested in knowing from you here how one goes about doing it.

You wrote: 2)  John provided this: "Leaving lead acid batteries on float charge 24/7 will reduce the useful life of the batteries by as much as 35 to 40% compared to cycle charging, which by definition is to charge them only when they need recharging, then leave them alone. The continuous float charge results in accelerated positive grid corrosion, which has the effect of turning the positive plates in the battery into mush: a soft, expanded material that produces increased internal resistance and decreased deep cycle capacity. I only use cycle charging on my boats now, but I will leave them overnight or maybe for a day or 2 with the charger on just to make sure that they get fully recharged."I noted that in order to do so, I'd start a program of plugging into shorepower to top off the batteries once I got back to the slip before I left.  He added: "I doubt that an extra 30 minutes with the charger on when you get back to the dock is going to get your batteries fully recharged: that last 5% or so takes a long time, even with the very low internal resistance of AGM batteries like I have on our boat. If you are adverse to leaving the charger on all the time when you are away from the boat ( which I support completely, but not for the reason you might think...), a good simple way to give the charger time to do its work is to put it on a cheap/inexpensive 24 hr time switch with the ON peg pulled out. Just set it to run for 24 hours when you leave the boat: manually start it with the timer set just after the OFF pin, and it will dutifully turn itself off after a good 24 hour charge. In most cases, that will generally make sure that you have reached that 100% charge that the batteries need to not begin loosing capacity due to sulfation. 

Comment:  On Hali we have four owners.  Different owners use the boat quite a lot...at least for short day cruises.  As a practical matter, we probably are less concerned about a 35-40% reduction in service life of the batteries than we are in knowing that the batteries are charged up whenever anyone comes to the boat and in having dead simple procedures that everyone can follow (like plugging in shore power when we leave the boat).  We will need to think whether there is a dead simple procedure for cycle charging that would avoid our "plug her in" policy which results in continuous float charging.

You wrote (or quoted, not sure which on this part): So, for many reasons, it's important to both keep your batteries fully charged, avoid keeping them plugged in 24/7 on float, and take care of them.  I am constantly amazed at the number of plugged in boats that NEVER GET USED.  Whenever the owner comes down to the boat, there are going to be a bunch of things that don't work, most importantly their electrical systems.

Question: Did John have another reason - it is not clear to me that he stated it although he seems to have hinted at it - for avoiding leaving the battery charger plugged in 24/7?

You wrote: The fridge works much better now after the equalization, which I intend to do more regularly now that I know.  The voltage used to drop to 12V whenever the fridge started running.  After the equalization the voltage remains high and only slowly tapers off after fridge run time and during the off cycle of the fridge, the voltage actually rises a bit.

Question: Hali has a selectable battery "tester" for each of the two house batteries, at the panel.  Each gives a voltage read-out only, on an analogue meter.  At what "tested" voltage would you conclude that continued use of a battery is not good for equipment aboard the boat (or that for other reasons the battery should not be used)?"

Many thanks. 

This is a great discussion board.  It is sufficient reason by itself to buy another Catalina 34 if we ever sell Hali.

Stu:

1.  Thanks for posting your battery charging post as a new thread.  I see it is getting lots of hits. I have questions but won't get around to asking them on that thread for a bit yet.

2.  Unfortunately there is no chance of us getting all four families of owners of Hali, or even all the principals, to Hali at one time but one other owner and I are headed there tomorrow evening.

3.  Thank you for suggesting a methodical approach. (You are an engineer, aren't you?  Most of my family have been engineers.  I may have said this before: when we were kids and people had those home-made car top carriers and one went by that was neat as a pin, tied up perfectly, my father would say, after waiting a minute, "There went an engineer" or words to that effect  And after a cartop carrier went with tarp and ropes flapping about, he would wait a minute and then say, "There went a lawyer".  Cripes, and I grew up to be a lawyer.)

4.  Lionel has had a chat with the battery manufacturer...who thinks if there is a problem it is likely caused by the charger. (Which reminds me of the lion who comes upon a painter.  The painter shows the lion his painting of a soldier spearing a lion and asks the lion, "How do you like it?"  The lion answers, "If a lion had painted it, it would look different.")

5.  Hali has a starting battery (bought at Costco last year, can't remember the make offhand) separate from the two 4D house batteries.  It is located adjacent to the propeller shaft.

6.  Hali's battery charger is a Flyback 20-3 Alltech Series.  Not sure whether it was original equipment (1997 boat) or purchased by the previous owner.

Ron:

If Lionel/other owners will agree, we will put a vent into the battery compartment under Hali's settee as you did on your boat.  Perhaps even add Tony's "through the hatch" vent (although I am bridling at that one a bit).

Kyle:

Hali's CO monitor is located on the engine box in the aft cabin just up from the cabin sole.  Putting it temporarily in the house battery compartment seems a good "test".  We also now have a second CO monitor in the forward cabin, starboard side, just forward of the hanging locker.

Hali's propane monitor is located 6" above the cabin sole at the base of the galley "ismuth" opposite the chart table and, therefore, immediately adjacent to the house battery compartment beneath the settee.

We haven't been cooking or using the propane at all recently.  Nor have we been running the diesel heater.  The only combustion aboard recently has been in the diesel engine...and it has not triggered the CO monitor (although I say that recognising that CO might in fact have been coming from the engine and not triggering the CO monitor until the monitor met its time-sampling threshold).

Other:

Didn't get to the boat to blow the propane line clear today.

Again thanks to all for the continuing feedback.

Regards.

Randy, your post might well revive Tony's "hole-in-the-hatch" suggestion for Hali!  Thank you for the battery gas information.  Hali's two house batteries are located under the settee. I share your concern about gas buildup there.

We are off to purge Hali's propane line.

1.  Tony, like you, I would be apprehensive about cutting a hole in the hatch for ventilation.  In any event, I think we are agreed that the root cause of the alarms' being triggered needs to be found and eliminated.

2.   The first step in the current plan is to continue to leave the propane tank off Hali, blow the propane lines clear, vent then button up Hali, and leave the battery charger on.  If the alarms still sound, we can discount the theory that onboard propane gas is triggering Hali's propane and CO alarms.

3.    The second step will be to shut off the battery charger, check the alarms for a couple of days, then turn the battery charger on.  If the alarms don't sound when the battery charger is off but do sound soon after it is re-started, we can (I think) be reasonably confident that gas produced during battery charging is causing the alarms to sound.

4.    From Stu and Ron's posts, I take that a cause may lie deeper: e.g., the packing in the stuffing box is worn out; too much water is getting through the stuffing box; the excess water from the stuffing box is causing the bilge pump to cycle on frequently, which draws down the batteries; the drawn down batteries are requiring frequent charging; the frequent charging produces hydrogen gas; the hydrogen gas triggers the propane and CO alarms.  If some such chain of cause and effect is at play, it will, interestingly, have been an alarm about a gas leak that led to our dealing with a water leak.  (Of course, we should have dealt with the water leak in its own right.  Also, I suppose that if the water-leak-triggers-alarms theory proves true, just because we fix the water leak won't mean we have solved the gas-from-charging-batteries issue as the batteries could need charging for other reasons at other times and would then still produce hydrogen gas at potentially dangerous levels.)

5.   Stu, I am afraid that the details of your good long post on batteries and charging will be over my head until I read a book on batteries (again!).  But I suspect the post will be of interest generally.  Would you post it as the start of a new thread so that it is not wasted in this carbon monoxide desert? If you do that, I would be pleased to post some follow up questions to you about what you have posted.

Sorry about subjecting readers of this thread to my rather tortuous "thinking aloud" about Hali's alarms problem...but your input in response is really helpful.

   

Stu, thank you.

1.  Your point ('why leave the boat plugged in') indicates a good next-step test (after we find out whether the alarms still go off with the propane can off the boat), namely, to unplug Hali from shore power (or at least turn the mains battery charger switch off) so that no battery charging takes place when we are not at Hali.  It seems so obvious...after you mention it.  (Is it your view that the boat should generally not be plugged into shore power?) 

2.  We changed the bilge pump line and put on new 316 ss hose clamps late last summer.  The pump seems to discharge a good deal of water overboard.  But I will check the hose clamps anyway.

3.  To second your comment about changing the stuffing when the boat is in the water, we certainly have found it easy (after reading the great posts on this site about doing it).  Nonetheless, three or four of us were on hand, armed with rags and screwed-up courage on the first occasion. 

Amendment: Since writing the foregoing, a co-owner has emailed:

"We were out on Hali tonight for a short sail and drift. The propane alarm
was sounding when D. arrived - the alarm cleared once she opened the
companionway. My brother, E., a heavy duty mechanic in his previous life,
was with us again tonight. He and I had talked about our alarm situation
when we were out last week. When I told him about the hydrogen theory, he
thought that was a distinct possibility but also thought that it might
manifest itself in a warm to hot battery (and it there was a hot one we
should get it out of there because batteries can explode). We checked the
new batteries. One cell of one of the batteries seemed a little warmer than
the others but it was almost imperceptible. No immediate danger there. We
did not think to check the starting battery. When we were leaving, I noticed
that you had removed the propane tank to eliminate that possibility - E
suggested we might disconnect the battery charger for 24 - 48 hours and
check daily to see if the alarm was still going off.

I will call the battery supplier tomorrow and ask if they have a way to
determine if a battery is giving off hydrogen gas but disconnecting the
battery charger might be worth a try. What do you think?"

And I replied:

"Great report.  Great idea to disconnect the battery charger
or leave shore power off.  Co-incidentally, Stu Jackson, who I think
is an electrical engineer, suggested doing that in a post he made on
the "Carbon monoxide (???)...." thread on the c34.org website today.
Clearly, great brains think alike!  After reading Stu's post, I was
tempted to call you to find out how things had gone tonight...but
desisted because of the late hour.  Then N. (a Blackberry addict)
came home and said, L. has sent an email about Hali.

Now that we have had alarms sounding when no propane is on the boat
(or almost no propane...I guess there might be a bit left in the
lines), it seems that we can discount the possibility that propane
aboard Hali is triggering the alarms. (I suppose we can't yet discount
the possibility that an activating gas of some sort is reaching Hali
from elsewhere.)

So I agree that as a next step we should shut off the battery charger
(or unplug the shore power)."

It will be interesting to learn what the battery manufacturer has to
say. "








 

That's a great photograph, Steve.

We also sailed near Lighthouse Park on Sunday afternoon.  It was a marvellous day.