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Messages - togve

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1
To be clear Stu we made a Gasket with the 5200 ,It's cured and dry it's not sticking to anything it's just a gasket. Butyl under pressure will simply squeezes out unless you have a well to catch it in. These chain plates top plates, are under pressure so the 5200 gasket seals under pressure. Of course you can use any neoprene rubber to be the gasket I just decided to make it out of 5200. I still use butyl but in the well of the slot that the 2" bar goes through for added protection.

Since the installation and countless miles of sailing on lake Ontario, the sea trials and rain  have shown that these chain plates just don't leek. 3 years later nothing has been done to them and no leaks.

See You tube of the new chain plate design:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO5_Yjqktr8


2
Main Message Board / Re: New chain plate design- installed and rigged up
« on: January 19, 2012, 05:36:50 AM »
Hi Lance

The video was temporarily moved to a new address:

See new link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO5_Yjqktr8

Or type "Catalina 34 chain plates"

Cheers:

3
Main Message Board / Re: New chain plate design- installed and rigged up
« on: January 18, 2012, 08:33:40 AM »
   I'm not sure if I can make them available. Here is the reason why.

  Not counting my time, research on stress bearing and design these chain plate cost me about $2300.00 Cd. Making 6 at a time is costly. In order for the price to go down I would have to make a hundred of them.
   I made wooden prototypes first to make sure the real ones would fit. Then I made drawings from the prototypes , I made three separate prototypes before I committed to cutting the stainless.

   I delivered the drawings and the prototypes to a machine shop (The stainless shop) north of Toronto. They used another machine shop next door that has a laser cutting machine and they provided the stock stainless, 316 to my specifications. Then I had to go across town to find  a polishing place . It turned out that the most expensive part of this build was the polishing. Although they did a good job but it is expensive to get a mirror finish on the inside plates and the top plates $30.00 per side.
  Then I had to source a toggle for the inside. After two months of searching I found a company in England that has a few hundred of these toggles and they threaded the 1 inch pin for me to the 5/8 Nc for free. Normally these toggles would cost about $250.00 each.

  The laser cutting shop also shortened my rods and re-threaded them on their CNC machine. They messed one up and I had to take it to an other machine shop to clean the treads so it would take the Nylock nut.

  Aside from preparing the deck holes and slot. I carefully studied the effect of loading the deck. Now with the large plate topside I could tighten these plates as much as I wanted , partly to created a seal with the gasket and butyl and partly to stiffen the boat. I was very careful to apply the correct amount of torque so as to not cause to much stress on the hull deck joint. I measured very carefully with dial indicators the deflection of the deck and hull before cumming to my conclusion.

   These new chain plate function differently from the old ones so the installation is very important as you might understand.

   I'm working on an instructional video to show how to install these chain plates step by step.

  I realize most people are not as obsessed as I am when it comes to this sort of stuff but I was so disappointed in the original design  that I thought it was ass backwards and it did not have to be. I like the 34 so much. It's a great boat for the lake here that I just wanted to take a great boat and make it perfect.

  If you have access to a machine shop you could have these made yourself but just make sure they use good Stainless steel and that the welding on the top plate is well done. Also the outside finish should be as close to mirror as possible especially if you are going ocean sailing the salt will deposit on the nicks and carneys of the stainless and eventually it will pit too.

  I would also change the bolts to studs so as to eliminate the chance that water can get under the bolt head on the top plate. Alternately you can weld the bolt heads on the plates which I may do at the end of next season. Studs though, is a much cleaner look, they will be unnoticeable from the top after the plates have been polished. This will add to the cost.

Sorry for the long winded response.

Cheers:

4
Main Message Board / Re: new chain plate design is now on youtube
« on: January 15, 2012, 05:01:58 PM »
The video was pulled because of an error in the spelling on the credits. I have changed the new address of the the same video.

Just one other point to make, Butyl works well but it works better under pressure which is why the top deck plate is needed among other reasons that I have documented on my other posts. Even butyl will let go from stainless steel when it's not compressed. Also the new chain plates do not move like the old ones. The old one can not be tightened enough to stop the micro movement which will eventually cause the butyl to let go.

You should not believe me but rather check out the literature on the use of butyl and why nothing sticks to stainless steel for very long.
Also I'll continue to report if any of the the chain plates start to leak. Next season Ill take pictures of the chain plates removed and see if any water penetrated under the top deck plate. If there is water it will show by leaving a mark and mold will have set it.

new link:      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO5_Yjqktr8
Cheers:

5
Main Message Board / new chain plate design is now on youtube
« on: January 11, 2012, 04:32:50 PM »
Since last season the good old 34 has been covered up waiting for spring. In the meantime I have put the New chain plate design on youtube. The new design worked as I expected and we had some fun sailing in _ 35 not winds this past season. Next spring I will install centre Cleats in the tow rails. and I'll post the process.

Here is the link for the New chain Plate design:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO5_Yjqktr8


6
Main Message Board / New chain plate design- you tube
« on: January 11, 2012, 11:20:32 AM »
Since last season the good old 34 has been covered up waiting for spring. In the meantime I have put the New chain plate design on youtube. The new design worked as I expected and we had some fun sailing in _ 35 not winds this past season. Next spring I will install centre Cleats in the tow rails. and I'll post the process.

Here is the link for the New chain Plate design:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXPspNbLlUk

7
Main Message Board / Re: Tracks on Toe Rails
« on: June 25, 2011, 01:30:39 PM »
Hi Bill

I'm thinking of adding a t-track as well. Where did you buy your track?

Cheers:  Tony

8
Main Message Board / 34 verses 355
« on: May 25, 2011, 07:40:06 AM »
Just had a ride on the new 355. Very impressive standing rigging, very solid and stiff. More robust than the 34 and 36.Topside mounting chain plates won't leak. I was not in favor of in mast furling but this one works well and it has quite a large main sail. Sails like a Catalina very familiar to the 36 and 34.Points well in 18 Knot winds. Upscale interior looks very classy. The new toe rail is a nice feature and finally Catalina put in centre cleats , Yee-a. That's my impression of this new model. If your not going to build any more 36s and 34s then I think this is a good replacement.

9
Thanks for the spelling lesson, You guys are funny.   :clap

10
OK! I guess I deserve that. Maybe I should have you guys test the new chain plates. Bring your own foul weather gear please.

Cheers:

11
Hi all

I thought I would share some news on the new chain plate install. They were all installed and rigged to the shrouds on May 6/11.

  Every thing went smoothly until a few days ago. Since they were installed on May6 it has none stop rained in the lake Ontario region. As I was checking for leaks ,,, well the last chain plate I installed was leaking like a tap. I scratched my head a few time and then decided to remove the problem child from the deck . To my surprise I forgot to butyl the shroud bar. The bolts were butyled but not the bar. After a bit of ribbing by my fellow sailors I reinstalled the chain plate again this time with butyl around the shroud bar and it is still raining here and I'm happy to report that it too is now NOT leaking. Because of all the rain I have not been able to sail test the boat , but I'm hoping to, this Saturday.

I'll keep you posted after the first sail with the new plates.

Cheers:

12
Great post with lots of detail.

I have just redesigned new chain plates for the C34. Have a look at this posting.
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6304.0.html

Cheers:

13
HI Cory

Thanks for the accolades.

I did call Catalina in Florida and they did not know what tension to put on the rods. However as I said in the post they suggested that they use 2 turns of the nut after hand tightening on their C355. They partly did not know because they don't make the C34 there.
So I called Catalina in California where they made the C34 and they suggested to just turn the nut 1/4 turn. I tried that and that is definitely not enough  tension on the rods.
When you remove yours you should take note of how many turns it takes to loosen your nuts.
Also remember that the original chain plate should not have the same tension that I used on our design because you would in affect be pulling down on the chain plate and the old design would put to much pressure on the two washers and the local area under them. Not good for the gel cote on the deck.

14
Main Message Board / New Chain Plate design – Installation and setup
« on: April 25, 2011, 07:15:37 PM »
New Chain Plate design – Installation and setup

We have previously posted our new chain design (Apr 8 and 12, 2011), how to remove the original chain plates and prepare the deck for installation of the new ones (Apr 17, 2011). We now describe the installation.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6288.0.html

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6266.0.html

[added links, Stu  1/10/2013]


Step 1 – Sealing the New Chain Plate to the Deck

This may very well be the most controversial step.  We made a 1/8” thick gasket out of “fast cure” 3M 5200 by applying a layer to the underside of the deck plate then compressing it against the deck through the deck slot hole.  We used plastic food wrap on the deck to keep the 5200 from sticking.  The food wrap was easily removed once the 5200 cured. Then we applied butyl tape under the washer of the through-bolt, and the under side of the deck plate at the through bolt and the shroud bar. (Image 1 and 2))
[attach=#][attach=#]

Step 2 – Installing the New Chain plate

We used 3/8 x 2 ½ ” through-bolts (probably 2 ¼” would suffice) to compress the deck between the deck plate and the backing plate.  Do not apply any sealant to the backing plate. Next we attached the toggles to the shroud bar.

Step 3 – Re-installing tie rods

We had to shorten the tie rods and rethread them by 3 inches due to the extra length gained by the toggles. We reinstalled the tie rods into their original position using the original nut with a lock washer followed by a ny-lock nut.  Don’t forget to first put on the angled washer that was originally there.  (Image 3) The torque adjustment on the tie rods  was 150 inch-lbs (12.5 foot-lbs) which translated to 1090 lbs of force on the deck. This led to the deck depressing by 0.090 inches.  This was accomplished by approximately two complete turns of the tie rod nut which approximates what is done on the new C355 according to advice we received from Catalina.  (Catalina was not able to provide us with similar information regarding the C34.)
 [attach=#]

This completes the installation.  (Image 4 and 5) Our next report will be on the sea trials we carry out over the next couple of months.  Tony being the main instigator of all this would be happy to discuss this project offline with anyone who is looking for more in-depth information.
[attach=#][attach=#]
Tony Germin
1997 C34 #1331
togve@bell.net

Rick Verbeek
1999 C36 #1763

Lakeshore Yacht Club
Toronto, Ontario
[attach=#]

15
We recently posted our ideas for redesigning the leaky chain plates on the C34 and C36 (1990-2003) models on this main message board on Apr 8 and the final design on Apr 12.  In speaking to some fellow sailors it appears as if the problematic chain plate design goes back even further.  They are currently being installed on Tony’s C34.  Here we describe removing the old chain plates and readying the deck for the new ones.

Removing the old chain plates

Our experience is with the C34 however the C36 is the same in this regard except for the center chain plate on the C36 which is a long bar with several bolts through the bulkhead (rather than the tie rods connecting the other chain plates to the hull).  Access to and removing the tie rods is straight forward.  Remove the nut from the "L" beam attachment end of the tie rod and then unscrew it from the chain plate itself.  

To remove the actual chain plate: 1) Remove the small cover plate on the deck.  Get under it with a putty knife to break the seal or else you risk lifting away some of the gel coat (esp if they have been rebedded with 3M 5200 in the past as was found with one of them.) 2) Remove the nuts and the through bolts holding the chain plate to the deck. 3) Break the seal between the bottom plate of the chain plate and the underside of the deck (putty knife again).  (Note that the bottom plate should never have been sealed but it was in this case by the previous owner). 4) Work the chain plate loose from inside the cabin.  

You will be left with a rectangular hole (“slot”) which requires cleaning.   Note the black (i.e. mildew) staining we found on the removed chain plate (Image 1) and on the underside of the deck (i.e ceiling of the salon) (Image 2).  Mildew = leaking.
[attach=#]
[attach=#]
Readying the deck
Next steps are:
1)   Remove old sealant
The slot was cleaned using a rotary tool with a cleaning bit. (Image 3)  Luckily we didn’t notice any rot in the wood core but look for this and remove what you can.  If it turns out there is rot beyond reach, then you have a bigger job to do than just worrying about the chain plate.
[attach=#]          
2)   Mask slot hole from inside the cabin then coat the inner core with thickened epoxy.  (This is the part that should have been done in the Catalina factory during production).   When it is cured, remove the masking tape and use a rotary tool to remove the epoxy that pooled and cured around masking tape.

3)   Next use a rotary tool to create a chamfer around the slot hole on the topside of deck. (Image 4)
[attach=#]
4)   Since the deck through bolts often also leak, drill out these bolt holes using a 5/8” bit, use a 1” counter sink to create a chamfer (Image 5) then fill the hole with epoxy, allow it to and redrill with a 3/8” bit to fit the through bolts.   
[attach=#]
Clean with acetone. This will result in the deck being ready to receive the new chain plates.  Note this process can be followed even if you are simply going to re-install your original chain plates.

Our next posting will discuss the chain plate re-installation process we followed.

Tony Germin          
1997 C34 #1331      

Rick Verbeek
1999 C36 #1763

Lakeshore Yacht Club
Toronto, Ontario


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