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Folks,

We've been trying to sell our '88 Mark I for the past six months and haven't even received an offer of any amount.  If there are folks on the board in the market for a '34 or have sold one, I would sure appreciate your input/ideas/advice.  The boat is listed in the "For Sale" section of the website...here's the link:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5215.0.html.

I fully understand the state of the economy and the uncertainty most folks face, so fire away with advice! 

We're selling because of growing family commitments and the need to remodel our house.  There's no way we'll recover our investment (but it was worth every cent when you divide by the number of days on the water and multiply by the square root of perfect sunsets!), guess I'm just a bit taken aback that there is little interest in a boat that has been gone through completely--or perhaps there just isn't a C34 market right now.

Cheers,

Vac

Folks,

After almost eight wonderful years of plying our corner of at least one of the Seven Seas with our C34, Spirit, changing life circumstances have conspired to make us consider putting her up for adoption.  You won't find a nicer Mark I for sale!  Please see our add in the C34 For Sale Section.  She's lying in the Ft. Walton Beach/Destin portion of the Florida Panhandle.

Cheers,

Mike

[C34 Aquisition and Maintenance Costs]

After reading through a recent thread on this site about transom styles, I thought it might be helpful to include some information that we published in the Mainsheet last winter (early 2008) about what it costs to buy, refit and maintain a Catalina 34.  The analysis in pretty un-scientific, but does provide some insight.  Hopefully, folks can add their own experiences and when newcomers search for "Ownership Costs" they find some helpful information.  This was originally written in December 2007, and I should point out that we continue to incur expenses as we ensure our 1988, Hull 563 is properly fit! 

The most interesting price dynamic is the relationship between book value and actual value of the boat.  Only an experienced surveyor or someone intimately familiar with this style of boat can offer a reasonably unvarnished opinon about what a vessel is worth.  Also, keep a realistic view when confronted with "estimates."  The prudent buyer/owner will anticipate more time and more costs than the original estimate.

A few basic rules of thumb:  Equipment refit is generally required at about the ten year point.  Electronics older than 5-years are obsolete, and older than three years really don't have much bearing on the cost of the vessel (even if they are in good working order).  Cosmetics do count--they may not really mean much in terms of price, but they add to curb appeal and they can be indicative of pride of ownership that's also reflected in sound basic maintenance.  Regular haul-outs count, especially in warm salt water environments (a quick dip and look at the bottom and running gear with a dive mask can tell you a lot about the regular care and feeding the boat receives).  Systems = maintenance (corrallary: convenience comes at a cost).  Major systems have about a ten-year life span.  The most important system on the C34 are the sails and rigging--aside from keeping water out of the boat, it should be the focus of attention along with steering.  The second most important system is ground tackle.  With these systems in good working order, you'll have plenty of time to deal with a recalitrant beer chilling device!           

C34 Aquisition and Maintenance Costs

Like any complex machine, there is always a maintenance tax (money, time and effort) to pay to keep our C34's afloat and operating.  Boats require constant attention to keep them in top shape.         

When we bought our 1988, Hull number 563 5 and a half years ago, she was in need of a refit.  After the experience of refitting two older Catalinas (a C25 as well as our current C34) and keeping financial records, it would be interesting (or very depressing!) to look at what it actually costs to own and operate these boats.  This type of self-reflection is not for the feint of heart and is only possible with the help of software that has better memory and math skills than I do.  Additionally, it only accounts for most of our boat expenditures—the myriad of small cash purchases aren't tracked. 

For this non-technical analysis, we looked at two sets of data.  Our own accounting software where the catch-all "Catalina 34 Expense" category has caught way too much in the last five years, and the Catalina 34 for sale listings on the yachtworld.com web site. 

We originally hoped that the refit would be about 50% of the purchase price.  Unfortunately, hope has no bearing on math, physics or boat repair.  We selected a reasonably sound 1988 boat that had sat neglected for a number of years but had been lightly used before that.  Low mileage was a plus in terms of wear and tear, but didn't do a thing to prevent corrosion in the Gulf environment
 
After paying a bit too much ($45,000), we set to work doing enough maintenance to sail her home 48 hours away.  Since we hauled after the sea trial for a survey, we kept her on the hard to put a new bottom on and replace the depth sounder and speed log transducers as well as cleaning all of the running gear and checking the cutlass and rudder bearings.  Four new 6 volt batteries and running lights and enough running rigging to ensure she could sail, we set off to bring her home.  After two days at sea, we had a pretty good "to do" list started... 

Five years and $31,613.23 later, we had a boat we were very proud of.  That works out to a total cost of $76,613.23, or the original purchase price plus 70%.  This doesn't include the cost of insurance or slip fees.       

An old adage has it that you buy boats by the pound but maintain them by the foot.  If that's the case, we paid $3.60/lb and it has cost us $185/foot per year since we've owned her.  This includes the cost of the refit, so it's more reasonable to look at the purchase price as $6.13/lb (original cost plus refit cost) and look at regular maintenance costs over time which works out to about $100/foot per year.  From this, we derived a few rules of thumb:  Used Catalina 34's run about $6/lb (assuming reasonably new sound or refit condition); in addition to slip and insurance costs, maintenance runs about $100/foot per year; and refit costs will run between 50 and 100% of original purchase price, depending on the extent of the work performed and how much you save on labor by doing it yourself—or worse, what you pay someone else to fix after you've tried to do it yourself. 

We didn't have maintenance costs for other boats, so it's tough to cross-check that theorem, but we can look at the data available on line and apply some basic rules of thumb to analyze what it costs to own a used Catalina 34.  In early December 2007, there were 88 listings for used Catalina 34's for sale on yachtworld.com.  This is typically a time of year with a lot of boats on the market, so the cross-section is more likely to be a representative cross-section of the total fleet.

Here are the assumptions we used to analyze the data:  The Catalina 34 displaces a nominal 12,500 pounds; is 34 feet overall, and a basic refit would cost 50% of the purchase price.  We also made the assumption that most boats sell for 90% of the asking price—which was fairly accurate for used C34s when we originally purchased ours based on post-sale data.  We also assumed that if a boat was new enough or in Bristol condition, she wouldn't be in need of an immediate refit—23 of 88 listed vessels met these criteria.  Since it's tough to ascertain true condition from a for sale add, we made the assumption that if a boat beat a certain price point, likely it was new enough or had been sufficiently refit to generate a  sales price commensurate with condition.  This price point was fairly arbitrary and was simply the average estimated cost of a refit boat rounded to the nearest thousand ($80,000, which coincides closely with personal experience).   The data generated by this rudimentary analysis is tabulated below.

                Asking Price      Est Sales Price      Sales Price/Lb    Refit Cost     Total Cost    Tot Cost/Lb     Sales Price/Ft   Refit Price/Ft   Tot Cost/Ft

High          $99,670           $89,703                $7.18              $28,667        $99,325        $7.95             $2638             $843               $2921
Average     $70,581           $63,522                $5.08              $24,094        $80,693        $6.46             $1868             $708               $2373
Low          $41,491           $$37,342               $2.99              $19,520        $62,061        $4.96             $1098             $574               $1825
 

The High and Low estimates are the average plus or minus one standard deviation.  No effort was made to break the boats out by year or separate Mark Is from Mark IIs. 

We offer up this cursory analysis for a couple of reasons.  First, the old adage caveat emptor (buyer beware!) certainly applies.  There are some very good deals to be had and nice used C34s available.  There are also some boats that are getting long in the tooth and would require an extensive refit.  If you are tempted by a low price, be honest with yourself and consider that unless you are exceptionally handy with access to required equipment and an inexpensive place to work, it's likely that if you find a "bargain" you'll end up investing enough that in the end, you could have simply spent more on a different boat up front and ended up in about the same place!  With as many boats on the market as there are, the best "bargain" may turn out to be someone else's refit, which you can usually buy at a discount since the market does a fairly good job of imposing realistic limits on sales prices, aided by surveyors, banks and insurance valuations. 

The second purpose is that a sailboat purchase is more emotional than practical (unless you use it to commute to work or live aboard).  As sailors, we're interested in getting other folks interested in the sport and want them to enjoy sailing and boat ownership as much as we do.  But a lot of good folks end up being surprised by the actual cost of ownership.  Combined with fairly robust maintenance requirements and a good sailing skill-set including seamanship, boat ownership can end up more onerous than fun—and that's when boats end up tied up in the slip or on the mooring and not out sailing.  A little bit of math and the experience of others (one of the great benefits of being a member of the C34 Association!) can go a long way to ensuring that we can pursue our passion and have enough left over for groceries.

Cheers,

Mike

There's been quite a bit of discussion on this and all sailing boards regarding LED lighting, both interior and exterior.  There is no doubt that from an energy efficiency standpoint, they're head and shoulders better than other forms of incandescent bulbs.  We recently installed Dr. LED Mars Dome lights to replace the main cabin lights as well as Taylorbrite reading lamps in the v-berth.  There are lots of different options available, and the most cost-effective solution would have been to simply replace the bulbs in the original factory-installed fixtures; but we decided to spend a bit more and get the new fixtures as well.  The dome lights are available in two sizes, either of which will fit in the factory location in our '88.  They are available as white/white or white/red.  We used two white/red fixtures and two white/white to assist with night lighting underway.  The white/red uses the bright white setting, by the way.  Overall, the current draw on these lights is .08 amps compared to the 1.3 amps of the old incandescent fixtures (on bright setting).  The quality of these fixtures is quite good, but they're not inexpensive. 

Cheers,

Mike 

In 2005, we installed a Racor 500-series turbine filter in our 1988 C34, Hull 563 equipped with a Universal M-25XPA engine.  There is a post on the projects page detailing the installation and the rationale for replacing the spin on filter with this more expensive filter.  The primary reason for swapping filter types was ease of maintenance.

This type of filter is remarkably easy to monitor and maintain.  On a daily basis, all that is required is to visually check the bowl for sediment or water before start and the vacuum gauge (when the engine is running) to determine the status of the filter.  No tools are required for basic maintenance of this filter.     

After two years we recently changed the 2 micron filter for the first time since the original installation.  Not because it was clogged (that would be evidenced by the vacuum gauge), but due to water and sediment in the fuel tank churned up during a recent refueling.  After refueling, we went for a sail to ensure that the tank was agitated and then tied up at the dock to drain the system of contaminants. 

As has been discussed in numerous threads on this board, the fuel tank should be cleaned at five-year intervals unless you are burning a bio-diesel mix (which keeps the system clean).  Regardless of fuel type, the tank should be inspected at five year intervals for signs of corrosion.

The inspection bowl is equipped with a quick-drain spigot that can be opened by hand.  It's simply a matter of opening the drain and draining the contaminated fuel into a bucket.  After removing the old filter, a wipe down will clean the assembly.  After replacing the filter, we primed the filter a total of five times (by simply turning on the electric fuel pump) and filling the filter assembly to drain all of the contaminants from the tank.  It's easy to see the water and crud being pumped from the tank by observing the bowl.  On the sixth "prime," the fuel ran clear and all sediment and water was drained.  This technique wasted about 3/4 of a gallon of fuel to produce just over a quart of water and sediment.  We treat our fuel with bio-bor to prevent algae growth and minimize sediment.   

After the fuel ran clear, we waited until the pump ticking slowed to indicate that the fuel had been pumped to the engine, opened the bleed thumb screw and started the engine.  As Stu pointed out in the "hard starting/glow plug" thread, there is no need to crack an injector on Universal engines equipped with a bleed screw.  After running the engine in gear at speed for 10-20 minutes, it's simply a matter of closing the screw.  As Ron Hill pointed out, it's permissable to leave this screw open slightly all of the time, making your system self-priming.       

This filter is also designed to allow this type of maintenance to be performed in a seaway, which could be critical if a large amount of contaminants are stirred up by the boat's motion, possibly to the point of clogging the filter. 

With tools (just a small socket wrench), this filter can be completely disassembled for a thorough cleaning.  If it's time to replace your spin-on filter or clean your fuel tank, you should consider installing this type of filter to simplify future maintenance. 

Cheers,

Mike 
   

Hi Folks!

There has been quite a bit of activity recently on the C34 board regarding various propellers that owners have installed in place of the factory-provided Michigan Wheel fixed pitch bronze props.  I'd be interested to hear from any owners who have swapped their stock wheel for a different fixed pitch prop, or a feathering or folding prop.  I would like to gather specific information about various installations so that we can compile a database of different prop options based on real-world experience. 

Based on engine, a forward pitch range of 9 (approximately 18-degrees) to 11" (approximately 22-degrees) with a 15" diameter is fairly "nominal" for the Catalina 34, with most folks favoring the 9-10" pitch range.   

For the data to be useful, we'll need to know the hull number, type of engine, type of propeller, prop dimensions and blade settings (pitch).  If there are specifics, e.g., the x/y letter calibration system used by PYI Max props, please include that as well.  Any performance notes, installation or maintenance tips would also be appreciated.   

Depending on the amount of data received, we'll either publish a short article in the Mainsheet (or tabulate the data) to make it easy to compare different wheel options for the C34.   You can simply add to this message thread, drop an e-mail to my address on the officer's page, or you can use the private message function to get in touch. 

Cheers,

Mike Vaccaro
C34 Association Tech Editor

Hi Folks,

This post is identical to the reply I posted to the "attention new Mark II owners" thread.  Since not all sailors are inclined to read all the posts (especially if they differentiate between Mark I and II), I thought it might be prudent to post it seperately:

I would welcome input from ANY C34 owner/maintainer!  Articles aren't required in the era of email and digital cameras...A picture and note is worth 1000 words.  The next time you are doing a boat project, grab your camera and take a few happy snaps.  Please feel free to send them directly to me in a resolution suitable for email.  We'll use them to improve this site in the tech notes or projects section; or will publish them in the Mainsheet.  You can even drop a line with questions.  If I can't answer them, we'll find some one who can, either the folks that built the boat or the dedicated sailors that have contributed to this organization for so long.

In the four years that we've owned our 34, I've seen a great deal of new sailors participate in this forum.  All of these folks have a great perspective as new owners.  Inexperience does not equal inability to contribute--just the contrary.  Keep those questions and ideas coming--supplement them with pictures when it's practical.  Don't be discuraged if your answer is a cross-reference...unfortunately, some of us are computer-challenged and don't have the skills to link everything; and sometimes the information just isn't available on the web (or we don't have access to it there). 

The new C34 knowledge base is intended to be one-stop shopping to allow you to access the great amount of information that is maintained on different parts of this site as well as archival data.  This was the result of hard work by a dedicated volunteer.  We also recently agreed to change the format of the Tech Notes section, which was simply an on-line version of the articles published in the Mainsheet.  In the future, these notes may be the "director's cut," i.e., longer versions not necessarily edited for the space constraints of the magazine--this will also allow for more pictures.     

If you wish to email me directly, you can do that via the "officers" link on the home page--just click on the "Technical Editor" tab.   

I welcome your input!

Mike Vaccaro
34 Tech Editor

We recently installed a speed seal kit on our raw water pump (Oberdorfer).  The pump cavitated during shakedown and lost it's prime, resulting in an overheat.  We didn't have any problems with stock cover/gasket combination.  This mod was performed at the same time that we did heat exchanger maintenance (boil out) and replaced all of the coolant lines, including the raw water lines.  Thus the likelyhood of obstruction is low.  I suspect that it may be face of the pump housing is less than fair and there may be issues with the seal.  If so, the proper technique would be to refinish the face to ensure that the surface is flat.  There is discussion in the archives regarding system troubleshooting and priming, and I have reviewed this.

Just curious if anyone else has had a similar problem when installing this kit.

Cheers,

Mike

Just finished servicing the 3" heat exchanger on our 1988 C34, Hull 563 mounted on a Universal M-25XPA engine.  Don't know the previous maintenance history of this engine, but we've owned the boat for almost three years now and the engine has approximately 650 hours.  We've been meaning to service the heat exchanger, and a recent galley replacement required draining the coolant; so the time was ripe.  Lots of good info on the website that aided in the process.  Some things we noted:

1.  It's very easy to remove the heat exchanger.  Disconnect the four hoses (2 x 5/8" sea water, and 2 x 7/8" coolant).  Depending on the technique you use to drain/pump the fluid from the engine, you're likely to have some of the glycol mixture spill as you detach the lines.  Also, ensure the sea water intake (engine intake) is closed before you disconnect the sea water lines.  Loosen the two large hose clamps completely that hold the heat exchanger in the metal saddle above the transmission.  Remove the hose clamps and lift the heat exchanger off the saddle. 
2.  Have a container available to set the heat exchanger in, since it will drip fluid after it is removed.
3.  Examine the exchanger for evidence of leaks.  It is made of bronze, and any leaks will be apparent as a light green chalky stain.  Make a note so that when you re-assemble, you can properly seal.
4.  Remove the two end caps by loosening the two 3/8" bolts that hold them in place.
5.  Prepare a solution of "Lime Away," CLR or any commercial de-scaling/rust removal product in a container big enough to submerge the heat exchanger completely.  If it's been a while (or the first time ever!) the exchanger is cleaned, there is likely to be quite a bit of crud in it.  This initial bath is only designed to clean out the majority of the crud before it dries.  It will probably still be necessary to take the exchanger to a radiator shop for proper "boiling" to clean the hard deposits.
6.  Clean the bolts and endcaps.  Any radiator shop should be able to boil the heat exchanger itself.  Even after the Lime Away bath, they were able to remove quite a bit more material from ours. 
7.  Re-paint the exchanger after cleaning.  This will help with dissimilar metal corrosion.  We left the end caps bare bronze, however to assist in detecting leaks in the future.
8.  Re-install the pencil zinc.  If you do this on the bench without the end caps in place, it will show you exactly how the zinc fits into the exchanger as well as how it looks with the cap bolt properly torqued.  A standard zinc will fit in the 3" exchanger without trimming.  We did find some evidence of old, broken zincs in the exchanger.  The best way to avoid this is to frequently change the zinc (every six months in salt water).  Do not use teflon tape to seal the zink threads.  A metal to metal connection is required.  Use a non-hardening sealant instead.
9.  Obtain replacement gaskets and reassemble the exchanger.  This are large round rubber gaskets that have a small 3/8" diameter hole in the center.  It would be possible to make these, but they may be obtained from a Universal parts supply source (there is no Kubota equivalent since the heat exchanger is a maritime modification).  Buy an extra set for your next maintenance cycle or a repair.  Some folks have also purchased "heavy" end caps.  The stock caps make an adequate seal if they are properly installed with an O-ring around the base of the bolt and some Permatex 2B (or other type of non-hardening water/glycol tolerant sealant).  The caps are slightly concave around the center bolt hole to allow the bolt to draw down the cap when it is torqued.  There is also a ridge along the outer perimeter of the end cap to make a seal.  Be sure that you assemble all of the parts "dry" before you add any sealant to ensure that you understand the proper assembly sequence and have the caps installed correctly.  Although I can't specify a torque setting for these bolts--be careful not to over torque and crush the gasket during installation.  To apply sealant, make a thin bead around the outside diameter of the exchanger and the base of the bolt (right over the O-ring).  To properly install the O-ring, put the bolt through the plate and slide the O-rind down the bolt.  Then insert the bolt into the gasket.  Tighten the end cap bolt.
10.  Re-install in reverse order.  If you're hoses are older than five years, you might consider replacing them.  Aside from the one 7/8" line that attaches to the base of the water pump, there are no specially formed coolant or sea water lines on the M-25.  You can use stock replacement hose from an automotive or marine outlet.  Buy the expensive, solid all-stainless hose clamps of the proper diameter.  This is not the place to skimp.  These clamps have a propensity for breaking due to vibration induced fatigue.  Make sure you carry a spare on-board.  We had to cracked clamp two and a half years ago and switched to the heavy-duty clamps.  The heavy duty clamps had no evidence of fatique after approximately 200 hours of operation. 
11.  As Ron Hill and some other knowledgable folks on this board have suggested, consider removing the exchanger at regular intervals for cleaning.  If this is done frequently enough, it should only cost a set of gaskets as it is probably not necessary to have a radiator shop service the exchanger--a home-made bath of some type of radiator cleaner/descaler should do the trick.  A great time to do this would be during the annual transmission fluid change, since you can remove the saddle and access the transmission fill cap from directly over the engine (i.e., no working upside down in the aft bunk area!). 

Cheers,

Mike Vaccaro
"Spirit" 88 Hull 563

Ron,

I was looking at the pictures of your backstay adjuster from the "Apache's Projects" posting from 2001.  Do you still use this set-up?  Have you found it to be effective?  Are you still using what appears to be a 4:1 purchase?    

Have you replaced the stock pins in the chain plate with D-shackles?  Did you have to modify the hole in the chain plate to accommodate the shackle?

Anything that you'd do different in hindsight?

Thanks for the help!

Mike