Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: britinusa on June 14, 2018, 07:32:24 AM

Title: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: britinusa on June 14, 2018, 07:32:24 AM
We found a fuel seepage leak was due to a patch of corrosion (I know, Aluminum) on the outside (port) side of the tank about 1" above the bottom welded edge. Luckily I found it before it turned into a stream as we had a full fuel tank at the time.

Drained the tank using our spare fuel pump, removed the tank, found the leak, cleaned it up, JB Water Weld and tested by putting fuel in the tank at home. Reinstalled tank, Reconnected all hoses, bonding and fuel contents sender.

Ran the fuel pump for 10 minutes with the bleed screw open max, but it did not calm down to the regular 'tick tick tick'. Ran the engine, all good, at least for about 5-10 minutes when the engine died, sounded like a lack of fuel (stutter stutter stop)

Removed the fuel return hose from the tank, ran the fuel pump (just turned the ignition on), no discharge.

Replaced fuel filter (it was about due), would not prime on it's own, sucked fuel into the filter (just inserted a transparent hose into the output of the filter and took a deep breath) fuel flowed into the fuel filter bowl.
Engine will not run, assumed due to lack of fuel.

Tried to suck fuel through the pump (used the transparent hose connected to the output of the pump) but it was a dead end, total block.

Replaced the fuel pump (guessing it's the original fuel pump 30 years old, corroded top) with the spare, $46 on amazon, primed it by sucking fuel through a transparent hose. Connected up the fuel hoses.
Disconnected the return hose at the tank, ran the pump, fuel flowing, life is good.

Ran engine for 15 minutes, life is good.

So, question: Did I destroy the old fuel pump by running it dry during the post tank reinstall engine run when, I'm assuming, the engine ran on the fuel that was in the line from the pump to the engine?

BTW, the new pump is much quieter than the old one.

New spare pump is arriving today thanks to Amazon prime.

Paul

Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: KWKloeber on June 14, 2018, 07:45:18 AM
Paul

The pump, like a bilge pump, can run dry without harm.
I missed in your scenario-did you see if the pump would pump on it’s own, disconnect somewhere before the injector pump?

You just likely and coincidentally hit it’s drop dead date. MTBF is “only” 30 yrs. you’re really pushing it at “31”. Ha!  (I’m pushing 34 yrs)

A link to your replacement pump?

-k
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: britinusa on June 14, 2018, 06:28:59 PM
Ken, yes, I disconnected the outlet of the old facet pump and connected a piece of fuel hose to the outlet, nuttin!!

The Amazon pumps seem to work fine (at least 10minutes so far  8) ) and the 2nd spare arrived tonight.

Paul
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: KWKloeber on June 14, 2018, 07:48:06 PM
Sounds like you’ll be “spared” 😖 the agony of a tow.
Don’t keep a secret about what you got. That’s s great price!

Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: britinusa on June 15, 2018, 06:05:06 AM
Here's the link to Amazon

http://a.co/isiqkLc (http://a.co/isiqkLc)

Paul
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: Ron Hill on June 16, 2018, 08:59:24 AM
Paul : Looks like "Same Same" fuel pump as your OEM Fasut pump @ a MUCH better price!!

My thought
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: pjcomeau on June 24, 2018, 05:33:20 AM
I had not seen this before my latest update on my post. I see the pump you picked up is rated max 5.5 psi (I have found a local source for the Facet pump with same rating), but from I see in Catalina Direct (and I think from the universal parts list) that the pump they have has the same 32gph, but a max of 8 psi. So, from what I'm reading you are not seeing any problems with your pump when in gear/cruising speed?
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: Ron Hill on June 24, 2018, 01:10:30 PM
Pierre : The engine on a C34 will run without the fuel pump as the tank is higher than the engine with the fuel gravity feeding!! Especially if the tank is at least half full!!

A thought
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: pjcomeau on June 24, 2018, 02:29:07 PM
Ron, I saw a number of reference  to this  fact including  a more recent  test by  Stu. How would you bleed without the pump. Also, if this is the  case  why  is it a problem  when these pumps  fails? Is  it  that if they  are present  and  not working  properly  they impede flow ?
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: Noah on June 24, 2018, 04:38:50 PM
I believe Ron’s “pumpless” strategy could be used in an emergency, but his caveats that the tank needs to be at least half full, and the engine primed and running, in my opinion, would negate this as a pemanant engine running regime.
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: britinusa on June 24, 2018, 08:06:33 PM
I had not seen this before my latest update on my post. I see the pump you picked up is rated max 5.5 psi (I have found a local source for the Facet pump with same rating), but from I see in Catalina Direct (and I think from the universal parts list) that the pump they have has the same 32gph, but a max of 8 psi. So, from what I'm reading you are not seeing any problems with your pump when in gear/cruising speed?

We saw no issues when running the engine at 2,000 rpm or above.

If we were consuming 32gph I would be seriously worried, it's more like 0.75gph :)

Paul
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: Roland Gendreau on July 02, 2018, 05:58:03 PM
Regarding the ability of the m25xp engine to run without the electric pump, my engine recently would not run when the pump failed even though the tank was over 3/4 full.   I concluded that the fuel could not siphon through a failed NAPA pump.  I did not try to eliminate the pump in order to get the engine to run as I was able to sail the rest of the way back to my mooring.
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: Bobg on July 03, 2018, 06:45:52 AM
So what is the process if your pump fails.  if the engine can run without the pump when the tank is full, does the fuel pass through the failed pump or do we have to bypass it, if so, how do we bleed the system, i'm thinking we crack the knurled knob and let gravity do its job? I have never had a problem and I just received my spare pump from amazon but curious about running without pump in a emergency situation
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: rmbrown on July 08, 2018, 07:02:25 AM
You guys have me confused...  the fuel pump on my M35AC looks like this.  Is mine original or is that something someone used as a replacement at some point that may or may not be doing the job correctly?

Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: KWKloeber on July 08, 2018, 09:02:56 AM
Mike

Ck the partz manual - p43 shows the pump used.  Or that *should* have been used (insert usual caveats here.)  The “AC” on your pump doesn’t derive from your engine model number.

Didn’t we have some conversations previously about *stuff* on your engine that isn’t OEM?  Like the oil switch - or (CRS) was that someone else?

-k
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: rmbrown on July 08, 2018, 09:12:10 AM
I think that was someone else... but nothing non-OEM surprises me.

I assume the AC is AC/Delco?
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: KWKloeber on July 08, 2018, 09:45:06 AM
I would ass/u/e the same.

Point of reference - where that pump located, can't tell. Free hanging?

Point of information - where is your oil switch located, on-block or on a bracket?

-k
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: rmbrown on July 08, 2018, 09:50:51 AM
That is my starboard forward engine mount in the picture's lower right.  The pump is forward of the dipstick by a few inches.  Based on my recollection, the pump is mounted on a bracket.  Based on one interpretation of this picture, that bolt holding down the ground wire is where it's mounted.

Re oil switch, I'm embarrassed to say that I have no idea.
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: KWKloeber on July 08, 2018, 10:08:09 AM
Ok, now I C.

I'm embarrassed to say I have no clue where the fuel pump was mounted OEM on the C-34 M-25/XP/XPAs!
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: rmbrown on July 08, 2018, 10:29:31 AM
The catalina direct pump says best if installed near fuel tank... were any of our engines plumbed like that?  If so, where?  Under head sink near racor?

I'm wondering if my original pump was bolted right were the current one is bolted, just got replaced by a previous owner or mechanic.
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: mdidomenico on July 09, 2018, 06:23:22 AM
on my '89 the fuel pump is mounted in the head in the little compartment under the sink.  the racor was mounted directly below it on the wall to the left and the raw water strainer on the wall to the right
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: rmbrown on July 09, 2018, 06:27:32 AM
Thanks!

Is the pump upstream or downstream of the racor?
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: Jon W on July 09, 2018, 10:12:59 AM
My 1987 is plumbed fuel tank -> Racor -> Facet pump -> on engine filter -> engine. The Racor and Facet fuel pump are installed inside the locker under the head sink.

Photo attached for reference.
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: rmbrown on July 09, 2018, 10:17:28 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 24, 2018, 05:31:20 PM
The fuel pump on the Mark I boats is, as Jon said, under the head sink.  The Mark IIs have them mounted on the engine (looks completely different, just a small box).  Whether or not they were plumbed correctly is up to you.  Check it out.  Should be tank>>Racor>>pump>>engine filter>>engine.  The CONCEPT is to USE the RACOR filter BEFORE the pump.  The pump filter is NOT there to filter your tank.  That's why the primary Racor is there.  Covered in Critical Upgrades IIRC.
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: KWKloeber on July 24, 2018, 09:57:48 PM
Stu

Was it the mk-I / mk-II changeover when the engines switched from the m-25 or XP to the XPA? 
It seems that the XPA is the first engine where Wb put the pump on the engine.
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: Craig Illman on July 25, 2018, 05:53:40 AM
I used to own #1150, a MK1.5 with an M25-XPA. I didn't have a fuel pump on the engine, but just the Facet under the sink.

Craig
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: rmbrown on July 25, 2018, 06:18:48 AM
I have 1251, also a Mk1.5, but with the M35AC... Any idea when they started using that one rather than the XPA?
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: KWKloeber on July 25, 2018, 09:28:51 AM
Quote

I used to own #1150, a MK1.5 with an M25-XPA. I didn't have a fuel pump on the engine, but just the Facet under the sink.


Craig,  It's odd and there's a discontinuity in engine configurations (surprise?) 

Westerbeke bought Universal in 1990 and started producing the A-series in 1993.  The XPA/XPAC power plant is identical to the XP power plant, the difference being appendages (such as the oil switch being moved off=block to a bracket) and harness wiring (such as introducing the solenoid into the preheat circuit.)  But, that's according to the literature and its not 100%, looking at the "A"s "on the ground."

Not all the Wb data shows the A engines with the integral fuel pump.  An early schematic shows the "A"s with the hung Facet-type pump.  And all the literature I have seen shows ALL the "A"s having the fuel pump shut-off feature, driven by the normally-open low-oil-pressue switch (off-block on a bracket, like the "B-series.")  However, the 3 or 4 "A"s that I know of don't have that feature -- they have the single terminal normally-closed oil switch on the block. 

Of course the "C" is a designation that the wiring was modifed for CTY.  Maybe there are no CTYs out there with "A"s that have those wiring changes. Who knows, there's not a great documentation of those type changes and when I've asked my contact at Wb about those type things, the answer has always been, "I don't know, no record of that."

So go figure?

-k
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: Craig Illman on July 25, 2018, 07:56:27 PM
Ken - I thought I had a XPA, because it was silver-blue instead of brown, but maybe that wasn't a reliable indicator of sub-model?

Craig
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: KWKloeber on July 25, 2018, 08:27:15 PM
Craig

The sticker on the exhaust manifold would say XPA

There’s XPs out there that were silver blue.  Maybe late models?
 I can’t say on the 34, but I have seen them in the 30.

-k
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: Ron Hill on July 27, 2018, 02:17:49 PM
Ken :FYI,  All of the M25XPs are Oshkosh bronze. Starting in 1991 all production, the M25XPs were replaced with the M35 engines.

A thought
Title: Re: Did I destroy my Facet Fuel Pump
Post by: KWKloeber on July 27, 2018, 04:13:05 PM
Ron

Respectfully, au contraire mon ami. 
They say (whoever "they" are) to stay young it's good to learn something new every day. :D

Two XPs:
Top, a boneyard.  Bottom - I replaced the crap OEM, landlubber SW pump ( :D ) with a first-class honest-to-goodness MARINE GRADE Ob pump :thumb: (sorry I got the Oberdorfer can'thelpits)

I don't know where the s/n 502756 falls, but as I said below probably high on the M-25XP food chain, after Westerbeke took over UM.

-ken