Gang... I was at the boat yesterday afternoon and pulled the steps to take a peak at the engine. I found a couple of cups or so of coolant in the otherwise clean sump. This wasn't there when I winterized engine. I checked the overflow bottle and it's indeed low by approximately the same amount. I'm headed back tomorrow. Any ideas on what to look for or what might be the issue?
It's odd to me since there was no leak when the engine was last used and it's all come out since it was winterized. Nothing could have pressurized the system except something freezing and I have my doubts about that one.
Some ideas of what to look for/at welcome!
Mike,
The same thing happens to me every winter. I lose all the coolant from my overflow bottle and it ends up in the sump under the engine. In the summer, I barely go though 250 ml of coolant even though I run approx 100 hrs per season. Is suspect overall shrinkage in the cold weather creates a small leak somewhere in the system. The plastic overflow bottle appears to be particularly vulnerable to shrinkage and resultant leaks but the area below my bottle shows no signs of a leak. I suspect a leak at the heat exchanger hose connections. This spring I plan to snug up all the coolant hose clamps before I commission the engine for the season. Also, next winter, I'll empty my overflow bottle to reduce the leak potential there.
Mike : Cut a fuel diaper to size and slide it under the engine. It will tell you (by the spots) where oil, fuel, antifreeze, etc. is leaking from!!
A thought
Dave: That's madness but gives me hope.
Ron: My gut feeling is I'd have to catch it early because this much coolant would saturate it, but it's a cheap experiment I'll run tomorrow.
Mike that would drive me nutty not knowing exactly the source was.
Even if you tighten up whatever whatnots you can find, maybe in fall you can try to isolate sources (just in case the correct whichever isn't tightened.)
Stuff, cover, tape (as appropriate) pcs of rags or paper towel or diapers around/or under the Hx, the coolant pump inzie/outzie, the overflow reservoir, AND around the coolant cap and hose, etc?
You might also try a pressure test? I would think that if it's a leak location that opens when it's cold enough, then it might also reveal itself under pressure on a cold engine -- go up to the 15 or so PSI.
Ken
Mike : I'm sure that anti freeze didn't squirt out all at once, I'm sure it was drip after drip!!
A thought
Turns out the 7/8 elbow between the thermostat housing and pump was actually a decent clamped 1" hose. :(
I ripped all coolant hoses off for replacement except water heater hoses since they've clearly been replaced relatively recently.
When I disconnected the hoses from the heat exchanger, I was horrified to find that the brackets that had once held it on were missing. It was hanging by the hoses and wearing and slightly dented from banging on the engine. The tech that worked on it last year put a rag between it and the engine to "protect" it.
Quote from: rmbrown on April 02, 2018, 05:50:53 PM
Turns out the 7/8 elbow between the thermostat housing and pump was actually a decent clamped 1" hose. :(
Mike,
Watcha elbow/hose are you referring to?
The only hose between the Tstat and the pump, is the small bypass hose (which is removed and replaced with the water heater lines.)
How typical. Hey, at least the Tech cared enough to "protect" the Hx, 'eh?
Do you have (used to) the single horizontal bracket or the two vertical brackets (straps)?
ken
Quote from: rmbrown on April 02, 2018, 05:50:53 PM
Turns out the 7/8 elbow between the thermostat housing and pump was actually a decent clamped 1" hose. :(
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Mike,
This one? http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7084.msg47677.html#msg47677
Re: your HX...similar thing happened to me with the straight bracket. Here's that story and some sources for replacement if needed.
Heat Exchangers 101: Sources for replacement Good Guys at Sendure
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6920.0.html
I mispoke... I meant the thermostat housing and the exhaust manifold.
I have no idea what I used to have. I paid a pro to take it off and clean it out. There's evidence that there used to be a bracket or a pair of brackets, but they, and the bolts that held them in place, are MIA. The mechanic tells me he put it back like he found it. Given that the boat is 25 years old, I suppose it was removed and not replaced years ago. My plan is to order a new one from Catalina Direct unless someone has an alternate parts source to recommend?
Also, where would you guys order hoses (the couple of molded ones at least), fuel and oil filters, etc?
Anyone know the size of the bolts that held that bracket in place?
And lastly, for now at least, I found the nipples on the coolant pump to have scaly deposits on them. Normal or trouble? All the others are clean.
Thanks Stu!
Mike:
Quote from: rmbrown on April 03, 2018, 07:10:16 AM
the thermostat housing and the exhaust manifold.
Mike I just use a wire-wound hose section -- works fine (see photo.)
Quote
I have no idea what I used to have. I paid a pro to take it off and clean it out.
Anyone know the size of the bolts that held that bracket in place?
I asked because Universal used three different bell housings/Hx mounting types. A single bracket that sits on a HORIZ buss on the BH (I think what Stu describes), double brackets (straps) that bolts to the VERT face of the BH, and a different kind of HORZ bracket (that I have) goes onto two bell housing bolts. The M35 parts manual shows only one type.
Your pic shows it's the type that the manual doesn't list. I had a set from a customer's Hx who didn't need them (they are supplied with a new Hx) but I can't locate them. They are about $30, give or take.
I can't tell the bolt size, as the manual doesn't show your type Hx and bell housing.
Quote
Also, where would you guys order hoses (the couple of molded ones at least), fuel and oil filters, etc?
And lastly, for now at least, I found the nipples on the coolant pump to have scaly deposits on them. Normal or trouble?
I prefer Shields wire-wound hose 250 Series or corrugated 252 Series (makes a tighter bend) from about any marine supply.
I pasted my list of filter equivalents below. I prefer Fram or FleetGuard lube and FleetGuard fuel and FleetGuard fuel.
My Kubota equipment dealer recommended FleetGuard fuel.
Clean the pump with RydLyme (I prefer) or Lime-A-Way.
Cheers,
Ken
Oil filter
Fleetguard LF3462
Fram PH3593A
Purolater L14459
WIX 51064, 51334
NAPA 1064, 1334, 21334
AC X-88, PF1127
CARQUEST 85452
Delco PF1127
Universal 300209
Kubota 70000-15241
Secondary Fuel filter
Fleetguard FF5226, FF42003; 65% efficient @ 2u; 82% efficient @ 10u; 98.67% efficient @ 20u
Fram P7514 C6921; 82% efficient @10u; 97% efficient @20u
Universal 298854 ? nom; 25u abs
WIX 33389 / NAPA 3389 "10u nominal" – "We don't supply beta ratios"
Purolator F50262
AC TP1200
Hastings FF1119
CARQUEST 86390, 86582
Kubota 15221-43170
Primary filter
Racor 120 (rated 15 gph)
Racor R12S "2u" element - NOT! 99% or better @ 4u
Mike : Here a "Tip" that I wrote about years ago:
Always look for hose chaffing especially along the port side of the Universal engines.
Take a piece of clear 1" water hose and split it length wise. Slide it over the hose to be protected (between the hose and the engine) and wire tie it in place. You might even wire tie it to help support that protected hose if it's a long unsupported run.
A few thoghts
Thanks, all!
Ken,
What is that interesting looking PVC pipe arrangement in the background of your picture?
Dave
It's a wet trap on the discharge from my waste tank. That way the honey sucker fully empties the tank instead of it sucking air as soon as the level drops below the top of the outlet fitting.
The engine compartment arrangement on the C-30 let me run the pvc down to a point (next to the engine stringer) that's several inches below the tank outlet (tank is high, under the port settee.)
The tee forms the actual trap — I wouldn't need a tee there, just 2 elbows, but I have a plug on the run side of the tee (just in case). I probably could have used a 1-1/2" pvc trap w/drain but the tee fit well in the tight spot.
Ken
Great idea Ken,
(or at least a Good Idea :D) I don't think I have room to install a trap but I have placed a 1 1/2" PVC pipe in my pumpout suction line right at the suction fitting on the tank so that the waste is sitting in a relatively impermeable and inexpensive PVC pipe instead of in a permeable and quite expensive 1 1/2" marine sanitation hose. I've reinforced the pipe to prevent undue stress in the unlikely event of fore and aft movement since I took this picture.
With my question to Ken and his answer, I fear I am straying off the topic of this thread. If anyone wants to continue the discussion on this, I can repost in a new thread.
Dave,
I'm not familiar with the tank location/layout. But, appears that if you turn your exit ell 180, run the "down" as far as you can, turn back up with two short ells (or a pvc U,) that you could sneak the "up" next to the "down"?
Alternately, run the "back up" above (lying on top of) the "down"? Using short ells is far from ideal, but maybe all that you can do in the circumstance? Is there enough vertical drop available to form a wet trap?
k
I have the same problem all summer I don't loose any antifreeze. Ever winter I loose it all. Mine comes from a bolt on the antifreeze circulation pump. just fill up ever summer every things good. Charlie
Well, as is typical with boat projects, I started with a little mystery anti-freeze and ended up replacing all hoses and mounting the heat exchanger, I hope properly, behind the engine. For anyone interested, the bolt size was 5/16. 3/4 length worked.
While I had the heat exchanger off, I got to thinking about how poorly the rest of the job was done by the pro I paid so I popped the end caps off. I could only see through maybe 1/2 of the tubes. I ran a coat hanger through each tube and pushed out lots of crap. The rubber gaskets on each end were not replaced during the "rebuild". I doubt the radiator shop where the boat yard took it ever opened it up at all.
Anyway, now when I run the engine, it stays at 165 until I absolutely max it out and spits out water like a firehose. I'm happy with the results and got yet another lesson into not trusting anyone else to do something where I care about the results.
One question for the group... the brackets I bought from catalina direct (), have rubber pads that fit the brackets and, if the heat exchanger doesn't touch the engine anywhere else, would electrically isolate the thing from the engine. Problem was, when I installed the pads that way, the heat exchanger was, I believe, actually touching the engine, so I moved the pads to between the engine and the HX. Is electrical isolation critical here with all the dissimilar metals? Or is that just for vibration and heat?
I jumped the gun and pressed send too soon. Here's my bracket... https://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/4212/bracket-set-for-3-heat-exchanger.cfm (https://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/4212/bracket-set-for-3-heat-exchanger.cfm)
Mike
You correctly ID'd that the Hx can be insulated with the pads. The pads are meant to go between the Hx and the brackets, and of course, the brackets bolted to the vertical face of the bell housing. There are differing opinions as to the need to bond the Hx.
Naturally, if the Hx is bonded to everything else (and everything else is protected with an anode,) then the Hx is protected. If there is isolation between the engine and the anode (say, on the shaft and/or strut) then the protection is not complete. Theoretically, if the Hx is not bonded, them its anode protects the Hx (locally.) Here is seakamp's position on this:
Hi Ken we have been asked this many times . is always best to be in contact with the engine when possible On generators we have a ground stud on our heat exchangers and does seem to extend life I have came to a point to let the customer do what they see best. Seems no one has ever pinned down the electrolysis [NOTE: "galvanic corrosion", not electrolysis - kk] issues . there are all kinds of publications on it and they all have their own opinion.
Mike - I also "sent" too soon...
I recommend to customers that the Hx be isolated from the brackets (avoid vibration wear) and that a #14 green bond wire be run from the end cap bolt to a bonded location. But if your other anodes are not correctly bonded to the engine then your Hx anode becomes a primary one and it's SMALL in comparison to what you think you have for protection (shaft etc).
I haven't, but suggest you try a search on this and there may be more info on the 'net. Let us know if you find anything different or contradictory?
-ken