Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: britinusa on March 31, 2017, 02:18:07 PM

Title: Alternator Alignment
Post by: britinusa on March 31, 2017, 02:18:07 PM
I have spent hours reading/watching anything I can about the alignment on our M25-XP engine.

Copying images from Mainesail's site http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/universal_alternator_bracket&page=1 (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/universal_alternator_bracket&page=1)

The engine does have the critical alternator upgrade.

The manifold bolts are longer as on Mainsail's site.

The Alternator Bracket is positioned fully aft (at least I think it's fully aft, as no slot is visible in front of the mounting bolts but the slot is visible aft of the bolts)

There are no shims (http://m8.i.pbase.com/g9/84/622984/3/141029508.XIWjrxuJ.jpg)

When viewed from above with the lower steps in place as a reference beam, the belt appears to be at an angle to the beam.

Mainesail's image looks like this: (http://m2.i.pbase.com/g9/84/622984/3/154214202.WJDeqCts.jpg)

My situation is the opposite! The belt is angle aft from the alternator to the coolant pump. ie. Looking down at the belt, more of the belt is visible astern of the lower steps near the coolant pump pulley compared to the visible belt at the alternator pulle.

All three of the pulleys (main shaft, coolant pump and alternator) are of the billet machined type, not pressed steel.

Any ideas on how I can move the Alternator Aft in order to improve the alignment (and thus reduce the belt dust)

Thanks.

Paul
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: mainesail on March 31, 2017, 02:21:23 PM
What model alternator is it?
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: Noah on March 31, 2017, 02:32:38 PM
What makes you think your stairs are a square/straight edge?
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: KWKloeber on March 31, 2017, 02:47:17 PM
Paul I think you need to ck with a straight edge against the pulley faces and go from there. If you had to, you could take some off the back of the shoe and shim the front.

kk
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: britinusa on March 31, 2017, 04:49:10 PM
So, basically, suggesting that I use a straight edge on the face of two pulleys to see if they are aligned?

Paul
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: KWKloeber on March 31, 2017, 04:53:02 PM
 Paul,

Correct. Spanning across the face of the fixed pulley, extended over to the alternator pulley. First it will tell you if they are in line, And then additionally whether the alt pulley is cocked.
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: britinusa on March 31, 2017, 05:57:01 PM
Ok, Sunday we'll do that with a Straight Edge.

Paul
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: Ron Hill on April 01, 2017, 08:48:45 AM
Paul : You need to take your straight edge and seat it on the lower drive pulley with touching both sides of the pulley.  Then adjust the alternator so the straight edge touches both sides of the alternator pulley while staying seated on the drive pulley.

From your picture it looks to me (eyeball wise), like the alternator needs to be moved fwd.  Eyes can lie, but a straight edge doesn't!!

My thought
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: Stu Jackson on April 01, 2017, 10:31:06 AM
Paul,

I'm sure you've seen this, but just in case...

Universal M-25 & M25XP Alternator Bracket Upgrade & Alignment 101 IMPORTANT

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7917.0.html

My picture of the "after" shows that lining up with the stairs is NOT what you are looking for.
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: britinusa on April 01, 2017, 10:33:19 AM
Quote from: Ron Hill on April 01, 2017, 08:48:45 AM
From your picture it looks to me (eyeball wise), like the alternator needs to be moved fwd.  Eyes can lie, but a straight edge doesn't!!

My thought

Ron, that pic is from Mainesail's site.

My situation is the opposite, the belt is angled the other way.

I'll be at the boat Sunday and will straight edge it as Ken suggested.

Also, I dug through my photos and found this one, taken before I did the engine harness replacement and major engine clean up.

It shows how the alternator is mounted using a large spacer between the ears of the mounting bracket.

I could get that spacer machined down (or replaced) and add a skinny one in front of the alt mounting ear.
That way it would move the alt aft and I could then use the slots on the mounting bracket to align the alternator.

I think it's an 85amp alternator. Can't find the pic that shows the label.

Paul
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: britinusa on April 01, 2017, 10:34:43 AM
Quote from: Stu Jackson on April 01, 2017, 10:31:06 AM
Paul,

I'm sure you've seen this, but just in case...

Universal M-25 & M25XP Alternator Bracket Upgrade & Alignment 101 IMPORTANT

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7917.0.html

My picture of the "after" shows that lining up with the stairs is NOT what you are looking for.

Absolutely! Ron's(Mainesail's?) site is a huge help.
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: mainesail on April 02, 2017, 04:49:54 AM
Quote from: Ron Hill on April 01, 2017, 08:48:45 AM
Paul : You need to take your straight edge and seat it on the lower drive pulley with touching both sides of the pulley.  Then adjust the alternator so the straight edge touches both sides of the alternator pulley while staying seated on the drive pulley.

From your picture it looks to me (eyeball wise), like the alternator needs to be moved fwd.  Eyes can lie, but a straight edge doesn't!!

My thought

Not all crank and alt pulleys have the same material thickness on the front side of the pulley. As such the optimal way of doing this is to clamp a known straight edge to the crank pulley and extend it slightly beyond the alt pulley. I use a piece of aluminum L channel or aluminum square tube. If the front side of the alt pulley is thicker than the crank pulley, as in the double belt pulley pic above, a square shim exceeding this offset, can be placed under the straight edge before clamping it to the crank pulley. The measurement will be the same, straight edge at crank to fore edge of belt. Repeat at alt end. The two measurements should match. Because pulley dimensions, ahead of the belt vary, you want to measure from straight edge to edge of belt not align the pulley faces fore / aft..

Once clamped in place you are first measuring the distance from the straight edge to the edge of the belt at the crank. You then measure this distance at the alt pulley end. If the fore edge of the alt pulley is thinner than the crank there will be a gap between the fore face of alt pulley and the straight edge, which is fine. The measurement that matters is straight edge to fore edge of belt. Once you know the alt fore/aft alignment is good you can then measure for squareness by measuring straight edge to pulley on both sides, eg: closest to crank side and opposite crank side.
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: britinusa on April 02, 2017, 06:02:23 AM
Thanks Maine Sail.

I'm heading down to the boat this morning armed with clamps and straight edge and digital calipers.

Will take pics.

FYI, all of the pulleys are double similar to the one shown, but I totally understand your point and should focus on the alignment of the belt, not the pulley although the pulley alignment (twist) is also something to be reviewed.

Really appreciate your input.

Paul
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: Ron Hill on April 02, 2017, 01:02:03 PM
Paul : Sorry, the instructions that I gave were for a single pulley, as I didn't realize that you had a double pulley!! 
You should follow Mainsails instructions or
you could go to Balmar (Looks like you have a Balmar alternator?) and purchase a single pulley.  Then with a single pulley you can play around with spacers/washers to gain the correct alignment. 
I say go to a single pulley also because you might be running into problems if that double pulley on the alternator moved FWD starts to touch the steps?!?

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: mainesail on April 02, 2017, 04:45:06 PM
Quote from: Ron Hill on April 02, 2017, 01:02:03 PM
Paul : Sorry, the instructions that I gave were for a single pulley, as I didn't realize that you had a double pulley!! 
You should follow Mainsails instructions or
you could go to Balmar (Looks like you have a Balmar alternator?) and purchase a single pulley.  Then with a single pulley you can play around with spacers/washers to gain the correct alignment. 
I say go to a single pulley also because you might be running into problems if that double pulley on the alternator moved FWD starts to touch the steps?!?

A few thoughts

Again crank pulleys are very often different from alternator pulleys in the distance from the edge of the pulley to the center-line.

Straight Edge Clamped to Crank Pulley Extending to Alternator Pulley:

(http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/165234700.jpg)

Measurement from Straight Edge to Edge of Belt at Crank Pulley:
(http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/165234698.jpg)

Measurement from Straight Edge to Edge of Belt at Alternator Pulley:
(http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/165234699.jpg)

Gap Between Straight Edge & Alt Pulley:
(http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/165234701.jpg)

This gap is because alt pulley face is not the same thickness as the crank face.. If we lined this alt pulley up with the crank, using a straight edge against both faces, the alignment would be off.

The straight edge just needs to be square with the crank pulley. Once it is, the measurement is from the straight edge to edge of the belt at both ends. Lining up pulley faces can often lead to problems because the pulley center-lines are not always the same from the fore edge of the pulley.




Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: britinusa on April 02, 2017, 05:40:09 PM
Here's what I found.

Using a steel rule as the straight edge and the face of the Crankshaft pulley as the reference face....

Distance from straight edge to the belt near the coolant pulley 0.585"
Distance from straight edge to the belt near the alternator pulley 0.540"

Which I calc as needing the alternator to move aft by 0.04"

There might be a small bit of aft movement loosening the 4 bolts on the coolant tank/exhaust manifold, but I'm not sure until I loosen those bolts.
However, there is no shim on the inboard bolt of the mounting bracket, so moving the bracket backwards is not going to cut it.

So right now I'm working on moving the alternator aft by modifying the spacer in the mounting bracket.



Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: KWKloeber on April 02, 2017, 05:57:38 PM
 Paul

Did you happen to measure also from your street edge print to see's face of crank pulley) to the belt edge on the crank pulley.?

From your pic (Could be deceiving) it looks like your belt is riding way low in the pulley. Are you sure you have the right width belt? What's it look like on the other  pulleys?
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: britinusa on April 03, 2017, 05:05:42 AM
Thanks for looking that close Ken.
Pulley pic #1
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: britinusa on April 03, 2017, 05:06:37 AM
Pulley pics #2 & 3
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: KWKloeber on April 03, 2017, 06:37:45 AM
 Paul,

Can't tell much about whether the belt is riding too deep or not, without looking at pictures of the "belt side" of each pulley.   Uhhhh  looks like you're missing a belt there buddy. Did you notice/verify that (Discounting needing to shift a little) the alt is true (not tipped askew) and both belt grooves are in-line for all three pulleys?  Looks to have been set up that way with  proper doubles on the three    I don't know the belt width/angle for those pulleys ( were you able to confirm it's a balmer?) -- maybe RC has the numbers.   Confirm the belt mfgr/number specs against those numbers. also suggest Top Cog belts if you can match the required width/angle. On the Dayco website, you can plug in your specs, and it returns a list of belts w/ specs that meat or fall closest to what you're looking for.
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: KWKloeber on April 03, 2017, 06:51:28 AM
While you're poking around in all that area anyway, you might want to switch all your perforated  hose  clamps to the solid/rolled-edge type (AWAB or ABA).   I have just switched every single clamp on my boat
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: KWKloeber on April 03, 2017, 09:03:01 AM
Paul

In your 1st alt pic, it appeared (could be just the angle of the shot or a fisheye effect) that the pulley is askew compared to the straight line of the belt.  Did you also find that on your forensics?  Do you notice wear/fraying on one side (top outside edge) of the belt profile?
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: britinusa on April 03, 2017, 10:40:39 AM
Thanks Ken,
I won't get back to the boat till Wednesday (or chance Tomorrow)

I have found a machine shop within walking distance of my home, so contacting them about new spacers.

The double pulleys were installed by a PO.

There was only one belt in place when we purchased Eximius

The belt on now was one of several on the boat as spares provided by PO, but all were different, so I choose the one that resembled what came with the boat.

I read Maine Sail's note about preferred belts and will revisit that.

Now remind me - I have a boat because I like to work on boats and occasionally sail - do I have that right?   :?

Paul
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: KWKloeber on April 03, 2017, 10:48:25 AM
Ahhh yes, I recall the engine belt issue now.  CRS.

The JOYS of boat (any boat) ownership.  But just think, once you have it figured out on your own, IT'S DONE!  And done correctly.

I've posted this before, but FWIW, my westerbeke distributor recommends and sells the Dayco heavy-duty Top Cog (top cog construction) belt. I've found it cuts down on dust and it reduces heat build up better than the bottom cog belt (haven't measure THAT <wink>.)   What's the brand/number of your belt?

kk
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: Ron Hill on April 03, 2017, 02:19:52 PM
Paul : It sure would have been nice if you had told all of us that you had a double pulley setup in your first post!!!!!!!!!!!

My thought
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: britinusa on April 03, 2017, 02:30:24 PM
Ron, not sure why they are double pulleys would change anything? Especially as the forward most pulley is not used and I have no idea why they're there. Also, I have nothing that indicates that double pulleys are of any benefit or disadvantage.

Would it be any different if they were single pulleys?

Paul
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: britinusa on April 03, 2017, 02:34:23 PM
Quote from: KWKloeber on April 03, 2017, 10:48:25 AM
I've posted this before, but FWIW, my westerbeke distributor recommends and sells the Dayco heavy-duty Top Cog (top cog construction) belt. I've found it cuts down on dust and it reduces heat build up better than the bottom cog belt (haven't measure THAT <wink>.)   What's the brand/number of your belt?

kk

Ken, as the belt could possibly be the incorrect item, I'm not sure how to reply ref the brand/number.

If the double pulleys were not original (I have nothing that indicates they are or are not) then I guess I couldn't just use the 'Standard' belt.

Confusion is on the flood again.

:?

Paul


Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: KWKloeber on April 03, 2017, 02:58:40 PM
Paul,

The double pulleys on the crank and the water pump ARE NOT OEM.  Take that to the bank.

Re: the reason for wanting the info off the current belt, is just the more data I have, the more likely to figure out what's going on.  For instance, if the number tells me it's narrower or a different angle than the OEM belt, it's a good chance that is one potential problem.

In my business it's called "multiple lines of evidence."  No single one is necessarily conclusive, but all taken together.......

It looks to me that you MAY still have the OEM crank pulley, with a second pulley bolted on front of it (looks NOT TO BE SO on the water pump and of course the alt pulley.)

You're set up for dual belts to reduce belt slip, wear, dust, heat, given the higher capacity alternator, rather than a serpentine type belt. Like Westerbeke engine below.

(http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l505/banjoband/dualbelt.png)


k
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: mainesail on April 03, 2017, 05:09:03 PM
Quote from: britinusa on April 02, 2017, 05:40:09 PM
Here's what I found.

Using a steel rule as the straight edge and the face of the Crankshaft pulley as the reference face....

Distance from straight edge to the belt near the coolant pulley 0.585"
Distance from straight edge to the belt near the alternator pulley 0.540"

Which I calc as needing the alternator to move aft by 0.04"

There might be a small bit of aft movement loosening the 4 bolts on the coolant tank/exhaust manifold, but I'm not sure until I loosen those bolts.
However, there is no shim on the inboard bolt of the mounting bracket, so moving the bracket backwards is not going to cut it.

So right now I'm working on moving the alternator aft by modifying the spacer in the mounting bracket.


If your alignment is accurate to .04" you're in better shape than 98% of the boats out there. Clean the second set of pulleys and buy a matched pair of belts. Try to find belts from same lot # with consecutive serial numbers or darn close...  install them and move on to more pressing issues.
Title: Re: Alternator Alignment
Post by: britinusa on April 03, 2017, 05:48:21 PM
Quote from: mainesail on April 03, 2017, 05:09:03 PM
If your alignment is accurate to .04" you're in better shape than 98% of the boats out there. Clean the second set of pulleys and buy a matched pair of belts. Try to find belts from same lot # with consecutive serial numbers or darn close...  install them and move on to more pressing issues.

Thanks Maine Sail!
It was your suggestion that I look at the alignment referencing the crankshaft pulley face rather than the wooden beam of the lower set of steps.
The wooden beam appeared to indicate the alignment was out by as much as 0.25" or even more, it is difficult to tell.

'Clean the second set of pulleys' - Am I OK with just cleaning them with a scotch scrubber?

I did just read up on how to measure the Cut Length of a drive belt, so I'll do that next drive down to the boat.

Thanks Guys, really appreciate everyone's input.

Paul