Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Bill Shreeves on December 20, 2016, 01:39:07 PM

Title: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on December 20, 2016, 01:39:07 PM
So... my, new to me last Spring, 1987 34 appears to need the transmission "fixed" and I would like the opinion from those that know more about this than I do which, probably includes everyone that's a member of this great org...  I say that because this is my first boat since I sold my 16' Hobie 30+ years ago so, I have much to learn.  I've sailed occassionally with others and been on a 2 week cruise on a Gulfstar 52 in the Abacos 25 years ago and a 2 week cruise in the Virgin Islands on a Hunter 42 15 years ago so, the love of sailing has always been there.  Just needed the time and resources to get one of my own. :thumb:

Following paragraph is the lengthy background.  To get to the question, skip to the next paragraph  :clap

The boat was re-powered 10 years ago by a PO with a M25XPB / ZF5M transmission.  I bought it with 450 hours on it.  Yes, had it inspected and nothing reported about the tranny.  Not having any previous experience as an owner/skipper, I didn't notice that the "feel" when shifting in to fwd was different than rev. Kind of slide in to fwd, firm engagement when going to rev.  That came to mind when I wondered why it didn't begin to move fwd when I shifted to fwd after backing out of my slip mid-season a couple times.  I began to do some research and looking and I believe the tranny is toast or nearly toast or the following reasons.  A big oversight on my part was not checking tranny fluid right after buying.   I did the oil, fuel filters and everything I could think of for the engine but neglected the tranny.  Well, when I checked, no evidence that the fluid had ever been changed.  Factory paint undisturbed.  Checked dip stick and no fluid.  Drained and found thick burnt fluid to no surprise.   I filled with new fluid, ran to get to get it warm, shifted a few times then changed again.  Tranny shifts a little better but, I don't think I can trust it.  I'm open opinions on this.

So, my research shows it'll be little savings to rebuild the ZF5 and likely far better to go with a brand new ZF10M, if I can get one since they are recently discontinued, or go with a ZF12M.  I'm not going by the inflated price for the 10 on CatalinaDirect.  I'm inclined to go with a 12 but the ratio gives me pause.  Going from 2.05 to 2.14.  Am I making much ado about nothing?  BTW, I'm aware the 10 is about an inch longer than the 5 and the 12 about 1-1/2 inches longer than the 5 so, I'm assuming I should probably have the shaft shortened to accomodate either instead of asking more of the Cutlass bearing which also must be replaced while the boat is on the hard for the winter.


Thanks in advance to everyone for your input on this and for all the great info I've obatined from this group!!!

-Bill
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Stu Jackson on December 20, 2016, 02:51:32 PM
Bill,

Welcome (again?)   :D

Good analysis.

Have you considered that it may only be the damper plate(s) that need to be replaced?

I know the C36 skippers have written up at lot on this, not so much here.  My recollection is that there are two damper plate replacements and one was found to be far superior to the other.  Let me know and I'll go look for links there. 
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on December 20, 2016, 07:57:57 PM
Stu,
Thanks for the feeback.  An observation I made, but neglected to include earlier, indicates the tranny slips when put in to fwd.  I carefully watched the shaft while shifting between fwd & rev after I changed the fluid twice.   I was able to see, several times when shifting in to fwd, the shaft rpm would increase after a few seconds.  I would expect it to turn a constant speed immediately after shiftng in to fwd as it appears to when shifting in to rev.   It wasn't drastic but, definately notcable.  If it can be seen with the naked eye, I'm sure it would be significant with a tach.  So, I think this is an indicator that the clutch plates and or thrust bearing(s) are severly worn.  After what I've read about the 5M not being very durable if not well cared for, this would be no surprise if neglected like mine appears to have been.

I welcome your or others thoughts if there's some holes in my logic knowing I'm not a mechanic by trade and new to this.  I'm surely not trying talk myself in to a new tranny.  I'd much rather put that money elsewhere on her.

That been said, I'll read through what I can find on the 36 site on the Damper Plate since I plan on replacing mine.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Noah on December 20, 2016, 08:13:15 PM
I know absolutely nothing about transmissions, except thankfully mine still works, but a search for Hurth damper plates got me to this:
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/very-distressed-transmission-and-damper-plate-failure.169509/

It may help?
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Ken Krawford on December 21, 2016, 03:56:29 AM
There's a pretty good write up on damper plate replacement on the C350 web site - http://www.catalina350.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=685

There's also a pretty good write up on damper plate replacement on the C350 web site - http://www.catalina350.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=685


Bill,

Welcome (again?)   :D

Good analysis.

Have you considered that it may only be the damper plate(s) that need to be replaced?

I know the C36 skippers have written up at lot on this, not so much here.  My recollection is that there are two damper plate replacements and one was found to be far superior to the other.  Let me know and I'll go look for links there.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on December 21, 2016, 05:50:04 AM
Thanks for the links regarding damper plate replacement guys.  Lots of good infiormation and I'm now hopeful that my low RPM vibrations may be reduced after damper plate replacement but, I don't expect that to help with the slipping/engagement in to fwd problem.

I had assumed that I'd need to remove the bell housing to replace the damper plate but, now hoping I might be able to get it out after tranny and tranny mount adapter plate are removed from the bell housing on the 25xpb.

I've read some concerns over the R&D damper plate durabilty vs the Sachs but I don't recall any mention that the design was different.  Assuming there's an option to go with a high deflection R&D on a 25xpb, does anyone have any experience with this?

Also, any thoughts from anyone regarding the ZF10 vs the ZF12 as a replacement for my ZF5?   I know the gear ratio difference between 2.14 (zf12) vs 2.045 (zf10) which is nearly identical to 2.05 (zf5) so, zf12 will reduce my speed prop RPM by about 50 @ 2,500 engine RPM as compared to my zf5.  I'm assuming that reduction in SOG while cruising will not be noticable.

Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Craig Illman on December 21, 2016, 07:13:59 AM
Bill - Are you confident you're completely engaging it in forward? The stainless lever not hitting the binacle guard? (You hadn't mentioned checking the linkage) It seems that if it was the damper plate, you'd get the same symptoms in forward and reverse.

That said, your previous fluid state wasn't a good sign.

Craig
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Stu Jackson on December 21, 2016, 08:53:27 AM
Bill,

I just ran across this topic this morning: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/hurst-transmission-rebuild-177424.html (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/hurst-transmission-rebuild-177424.html)

While he spelled Hurth wrong, it may be worth your time to do a search there on "Hurth" by "Maine Sail" and see what he had to say six years ago.  You may also find some good info on sources from the text.

You said you changed the fluid twice.  Did you fill the entire transmission up, as if planning on a winter layup, or just the small amount for normal use?  Consider filling it up once at least, may help.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: KWKloeber on December 21, 2016, 08:55:06 AM
Bill

Re questions on plates etc, maybe talk to John Dillon (Marysville Marine / authorized ZF service center) @ (810) 364-7653.
Tell him Ken Kloeber / Weekend'R Products sent you (that might get you a cup of coffee.  LOL) 

If you do end up needing parts I may be able to get some discount off list.

Ken
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on December 21, 2016, 11:11:24 AM
Stu - Thanks for the link.  I'll try and see what I can glean from your search suggestion.  Fluid change and final fill was to the recommended level for operation only.  I didin't think to fill to level for extended storage.  I only plan on being on the hard for 6 months ad they suggest 1 year plus for filling to the top.  I hope to have the tranny issue resolved before I commission her.

Craig - I shifted at the tranny and the lever was significantly farther than the 30 degrees, if I recall from the manual correctly, is needed.  I also had the Admiral confirm the shift lever on the pedestal had clearance.

Ken - Thanks!  I'll try calling them.  I got a price for a new ZF12 for $1,525 from someone in NJ and a rebuild of the 5 for nearly $1,500 because the OEM parts are really expensive now so, it's a no-brainer to go with new and one that is beefier.  I think the 12 price is really pretty good.   I haven't gotten serious about the Damper Plate yet but now starting to research that replacement as well.   I just don't see any value in not replacing it when I do the tranny work.

Also seriously thinking about a tranny cooler since one can be added to a 10 or 12.  Any suggestions?  I'm not even sure where you connect for cooling.  The heat exchanger?

Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: KWKloeber on December 21, 2016, 11:47:55 AM
Bill do you know what was the ZF stock # of the quoted 12?   407206? 407205?

-kk
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on December 21, 2016, 12:56:43 PM
Ken, I think the price was good for either however, it wasn't specified in the email.  I think the 407205 is for the A POS 2.136 fwd gear ratio and the 407206 is for the 2.632 forward gear ratio.  I need gear ratio 2.136.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: KWKloeber on December 21, 2016, 01:13:06 PM
Bill

the 407206 is 2.63, but no matter.
That's a great deal out of NJ -- must be a ZF distributor -- that's just about $100 over dealer cost.

-ken
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: sailaway on December 21, 2016, 02:08:58 PM
The hurth transmission in forward it use clutch pads. In reverse its a direct lockup no clutch pads. My boat lost its clutch pads and had to back it home. rebuilt the tranny good as new. That is why when you sail the transmission should be in neutral or reverse. Charlie
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on December 21, 2016, 02:10:53 PM
Ken, thanks for checking!  Can't complain about $100 over dealer cost.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Paulus on December 22, 2016, 04:27:18 AM
Bill, you might contact "Weal Sea" a member of this forum, but not active as he sold his boat about 2 years ago.  I know he has a brand new transmission in his basement he had for his C 34. He also had repowered his 34".
Might be worth pursuing if you are not in a hurry.
Paul
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on December 22, 2016, 05:59:11 AM
Thanks Paul.  I looked but wasn't able to find that member.  Any suggestgions?
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Stu Jackson on December 22, 2016, 07:12:42 AM
Thanks Paul.  I looked but wasn't able to find that member.  Any suggestgions?

Dan Harrington.

http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~harringd/gallery/WealSeaMenu.html (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~harringd/gallery/WealSeaMenu.html)
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on December 22, 2016, 07:54:50 AM
Thanks Stu.  I found that as well and enjoyed the site but, didn't find any contact information for him.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Paulus on December 22, 2016, 08:55:01 AM
Bill, if you want to email me, I would be glad to give you his phone #.  I have no idea what type of transmission, but it is still in the box. 
Please email me at home:  paulus@wmis.net
Paul
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on December 22, 2016, 09:24:51 AM
Paul  -Thank you. Another member sent me an email with Dan's contact info a short while ago and I sent an email asking about the tranny. He also provided a phone number however, I figured to go the email route first.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Ralph Masters on December 22, 2016, 04:28:53 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but, the condition of the ATF in the transmission should have nothing to do with the damper plate, two different parts of the power train.

Ralph
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on December 22, 2016, 05:25:04 PM
Your absolutely correct.  I think Stu was considering that a bad damper plate might be a cause for the feeling that the tranny isn't engaging in to fwd as firmly as in rev.  Nobody wants it to be a bad tranny
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Paulus on December 22, 2016, 07:25:47 PM
Bill, if you check this board, you will see that I had the same problem.  I had the tranny rebuilt and at the same time a new damper plate put in.  The old one was making noise.  The damper plate was the cheap part of the fix.
This was 2 years ago. 
Paul
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Breakin Away on December 23, 2016, 06:32:49 PM
The hurth transmission in forward it use clutch pads. In reverse its a direct lockup no clutch pads. My boat lost its clutch pads and had to back it home. rebuilt the tranny good as new. That is why when you sail the transmission should be in neutral or reverse. Charlie
Would you be willing to elaborate on this a bit? I did a Google search for "clutch pads" and only found hits for "clutch plates." Are they the same? Can you point me to a reference for how they work and their expected lifetime?

The main reason for my question is that my transmission (which was rebuilt by previous owner about 2 years ago, so only about 60 hours on it) has a slight delay in engaging when shifting into forward (maybe 1/2 second), but goes into reverse immediately. I am wondering if this is a sign of an imminent problem that needs addressing, or a natural result of the fact that clutch pads (whatever they are?) are involved in forward, but not reverse.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bobg on December 26, 2016, 04:52:47 PM
Been having trouble with my boat slowing down, I have put the transmission in forward or reverse on the hard and cannot move the prop,, my shaft rpm is a little less than half than the engine, i.e, engine rpm 2000 shaft rpm 950, (hand held laser), not sure how else to check a transmission, I re pitched my prop from 9 to 10" pitch, gained boat speed for a month and then the boat speed started to deteriorate, top speed at 2500 rpm is around 4.8 to 5 knots, (calm seas) used to push around 6 knots.  Is it possible the extra pitch started to cause my transmission to slip? I know I have complained about this before on this board, got a few good ideas but haven't really came up with anything.  Boat is practically empty.  Bob, I know, I should change the name of my Boat :D
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Breakin Away on December 26, 2016, 06:03:17 PM
Been having trouble with my boat slowing down, I have put the transmission in forward or reverse on the hard and cannot move the prop,, my shaft rpm is a little less than half than the engine, i.e, engine rpm 2000 shaft rpm 950, (hand held laser)...

I am not sure I understand what you're saying here. (How can you have 950 shaft RPM if you can't move the prop?).

But do note that the transmission has a gear reduction. 2.1:1 sounds reasonable, but you need to check the specs for your model of transmission. It should be in your Universal manual. FWIW, my manual says:

HBW 50lZF 5M (2.05 : 1)
HBW 100lZF 10M (1.79: 1)
HBW 150VIZF 15MIV (2.13: 1)
HBW 150NZF 15MA (1.88: 1)

I'm no expert at this, but I've never put the motor in gear while on the hard because I assumed that the cutlass bearing would get burned up without the lubrication and cooling provided by water immersion. Could this be why you can't turn it any more?

I'm sure there are others here who know much more about this than I do.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bobg on December 27, 2016, 07:58:20 AM
Sorry I wasn't more accurate in my description, one of the test on transmission slippage according to Ron Hill (I think) is to put the transmission in gear, engine not running, and try to turn the prop by hand, I did that and could not turn the prop, there may be nothing wrong with my transmission, just can't figure out why my boat is slowing down, I get decent RPM out of the engine, and while running I almost get half rpm speed out of the shaft vrs engine rpm, about 50 rpm less at all speeds.  Could there be such a thing as a repitched prop causing the tranny to work harder and consequently start to slip? I don't know , sure is a head scratcher, I do know I am about a knot slower in the same seas as before, this all happened the same summer I re pitched the 3 blade prop from 15/9 to 15/10.   I feel lucky to get 5 knots, generally I settle in at around 4.5 knots at 80% full engine rpm, which is around 3200 rpm calm seas.  I did achieve 6 knots immediately after re pitching the prop, but that speed slowly started to decline to where end of summer I had lost about a knot. 
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Breakin Away on December 27, 2016, 08:56:04 AM
Are you using the same laser to measure your engine RPM? If not, and you're using your tachometer for the engine RPMs, the difference of 50 RPM is easily within the calibration error of the tach.

What does your manual say about gear reduction ratio of your transmission? (Please report back on that, since it it impossible to diagnose anything without this information.) 2:1 sounds reasonable based on what I posted before. It also explains why it will be VERY hard to turn over your motor using your prop. Do you have a compression release valve on your motor? Because I see NO WAY that you can use the prop to turn over your engine without releasing compression first. In fact, IMO not being able to turn your prop is a good sign that the transmission is not slipping.

Why did you raise the pitch of your prop? It sounds to me like that may be causing your problem. Even without the transmission slipping, an incorrectly pitched prop can cause other problems like water turbulence that could cause the prop blades to slip in the water, even without your transmission slipping. Just like wind separating from a poorly shaped sail, similar things happen to cause loss of laminar flow over the blades of an improperly pitched prop.

I'm not an expert at this at all, but it sounds like you need to provide more detail to get help here.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Stu Jackson on December 27, 2016, 12:15:05 PM

Why did you raise the pitch of your prop? It sounds to me like that may be causing your problem.


15X10 3 blade fixed is what I have and what has been recommended for M25 engines ever since the Tech Notes were invented in 1987.

Gradual slowing down?  Wouldn't growth on the bottom and/or the shaft & prop be the first candidate to check?
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on December 27, 2016, 12:27:33 PM
I'm wondering what engine you have.  The top speed that I've seen published by the MFG for any M25 is 3,000. 
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Noah on December 27, 2016, 01:14:10 PM
Might confirm your speed instrumentation calibration, too. Take this from a man who once reported he was motoring at 7:5 knots! :shock: 8)
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Breakin Away on December 27, 2016, 02:03:01 PM
Good points. If he's using a paddlewheel for STW, then growth on the paddlewheel could have an even greater effect on the observed speed than growth on the hull and prop.

As stated before, I don't know what prop specs apply for his particular engine/boat combination. But if a 15x10 is recommended, I still wonder why he had 15x9 before, and what issues caused him to increase pitch. Those issues could say more about the true root cause. Obviously, prop pitch is usually adjusted because of too high/low engine RPMs at full throttle, and miscalibrated tach could lead to an incorrect prop selection.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on December 27, 2016, 02:05:53 PM
BTW, I know the hard way that the engine is capable of running faster.  I made a minor cable adjustment to get my RPM up from 2,900 to 3,000 @ full throttle.  The following weekend, after getting a photo tach, I checked it and learned my cockpit tach was off.  At full throttle the engine was actually running slightly over 3,100.   So, I "fixed" my cable adjustment.  Yeah, I know, a smarter person would've checked first...  Fortunately, I've almost never run near full throttle and was only testing after knowing the engine was a full operating temp. Now I know I need to calibrate my cockpit tach.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Noah on December 27, 2016, 02:58:21 PM
Lots written here to read and learn about 9 vs 10 pitch with lots of differing opinions and experiences. Campell vs Michigan, 2-blade vs 3 blade, fixed vs folding--there is no "correct" answer.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bobg on December 27, 2016, 10:10:31 PM
I am in lake superior and there is no growth on the boat, not even stain, I use the hand held laser to check engine rpm and shaft rpm while my friend drives the boat.  I have the m25xp engine, Original equipment was the 15/9 prop, but as many others have done with this engine I repitched it to 15/10 to get a little more speed,
 "The boat is pretty much empty,  2 people on board, someone once said maybe its the fuel lines, supply and return, I have changed the fuel filters, and cleaned the fuel pump screen, I have used my handheld gps, phones, boats traveling alongside to check speed, the knot meter is right on with these.  frustrating, dirty injectors?  I do get close to 3200 rpm with the hand held laser wide open and can achieve 6 knots, but don't like to run the engine over 80% of full rpm.  used to be at 2500 rpm I could hit 5.6 knots before I pitched the prop, Then I got 6 knots at 2500 rpm till it started to slow down, now I get around 4.6 knots at 2500 rpm, maybe it isn't even the prop or tranny, I don't know, but I got all winter to ponder it.
  Thank you all, didn't mean to hijack this post but when I saw transmission posted, thought I would ask,  I do believe my manuel says it is a2:1 reduction, Hurth 50, maybe it has nothing to do with the repitch, might have been starting to slip anyway, like I said, it reads a little less than half rpm at all points of throttle,  2000 engine, 950 shaft, 2600 engine, 1230 shaft, could that much less rpm on the shaft mean that much slower boat speed?   Does anyone know any Hurth transmission people to call?  Thanks again  Bob
I
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: KWKloeber on December 27, 2016, 10:20:24 PM
Bob

See hurth auth service contact earlier in this thread

Ken
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Ed Shankle on December 29, 2016, 08:25:00 AM
My thought as well, Stu. My boat is always faster under power earlier in the season.
Bob, I see you said the bottom was clean, were you power washed when you hauled out for the winter? Wondering if you had growth but didn't get to see it before the power wash.

Regards,
Ed
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on December 29, 2016, 02:33:44 PM
Bob - I'd like to think you could identify whether or not the tranny is slipping while under load with your hand-held tach by knowing the gear ratio.  I haven't done this but, I can't imagine why this wouldn't be accurate.

On the Hurth / ZF transmissions the gear ratio is shown on a label attached to the top of the tranny near the shift lever.  If its a hurth HBW50 or ZF 5 its probably labeled as 2.05.  According to the manual I have, the "A Ratio" is either 2.045 or 2.722 on a ZF 5 M.  If the label shows "A=2.05" on your tranny, multiply the shaft RPM by 2.045 while in forward under load. This should be the rpm of the engine assuming the connection between the tranny and shaft is good.  If so, the tranny isn't slipping and your problem is not the engine or tranny.

After that, the following guesses come to mind.  Is anything causing the prop to be less efficient than it was when you first re-mounted it after the prop pitch change?  Did it become bent, is there slop in the cutlass bearing or strut, is the key in the prop doing its job or does the prop slip while under load?

Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bobg on December 29, 2016, 10:26:47 PM
Thank you Bill, I am not at the boat right now but will certainly do that check this summer, and where I sail in Lake Superior, the water is so clean that it leaves no growth on the boat at all, and yes I was there when we pulled the boat, I power washed it anyway, interesting bit about the key in the shaft, I think I will remove the prop and check that out as well as long as the boat is out of the water.  I have a number of shaft and engine speeds written down at the boat, I will look at those figures and do the multiplication using the gear ratio off the tranny, and see what i come up with..Thanks again guys  Bob
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on January 06, 2017, 01:01:10 PM
Along with a new gearbox, I want to add a gearbox cooler.  Since I don't have one on my ZF 5 and new to this, I'm not sure how the raw water lines are run.  I'm pretty sure it's added as a loop before the heat exchanger however, not sure if its in-line or added with "T's" etc.  My concern is that if in-line might it restrict the flow to the HX?   Maybe a pic or two or a diagram that has a tranny cooler installed on a ZF10 / Hurth HBW100?

Thanks
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on January 28, 2017, 07:52:42 AM
The previous ZF 5M was painted with the Universal silver/gray paint.  I have a new ZF10M that is unpainted.  Should I clean and paint it taking care not to paint output shaft seal and the dip stick vent?  The gearbox is aluminum and i've read some just keep a light film of WD40 on them to protect.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Stu Jackson on January 28, 2017, 10:28:35 AM
No need to paint it, Bill. Paint traps heat, right?   But throw away the WD40.  I think of it as silicone (only place to use it is on the Beckson ports).  Get Boeshield T9 for that use, and PB Blaster to remove stubborn nuts & bolts.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: KWKloeber on January 28, 2017, 10:40:08 AM
Be very very (and very) careful to not get any blaster near the seal or you'll be replacing that. 

Same for anyone trying to get a shaft coupler freed up.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Breakin Away on January 28, 2017, 04:55:17 PM
No need to paint it, Bill. Paint traps heat, right?   But throw away the WD40.  I think of it as silicone (only place to use it is on the Beckson ports).  Get Boeshield T9 for that use, and PB Blaster to remove stubborn nuts & bolts.
Just to keep this fact-based, what offending ingredient does WD-40 contain, and what are its objectionable effects?
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: KWKloeber on January 28, 2017, 07:47:17 PM
I would avoid getting it anywhere near any seals, being a petroleum distillate.   :!: :!:

I admit I do carry a small can, but the problem w/ it (JTSO) is that it's like many multi-purpose products, materials, and equipment.  Being marketed as a solvent, lubricant, rust buster, waterproofer, protectant -- it can't do any one of them really well without downgrading the properties of the others. 

Imagine lubing up your xyz bearing and then dunking it in a solvent?   :donno:  :donno:
Or using PB Blaster as a lubricant? Both are about 60% naphtha compounds.   :shock: :shock:

I'd say it makes more sense to use a product that's specially formulated to do the best of one job.   :thumb: :thumb:

It's like my pet peeve of being so brainwashed from birth not to think for ourselves that we need pharma to supply us cold symptoms reliever that have 6 ingredients, so that we're forced to take a pain reliever when we have no pain.   Or buy 17 different varieties of their product to ensure I we the one that contains exactly what we need.  How about just one bottle of each, and let us decide which one(s) we need to relieve what?

in other words  .......
paint and primer in one?  NOT.  adding more pigment to hide, doesn't make it a primer.
garlic salt, onion salt, seasoned salt?  NOT. If I want salt on my italian bread, meatloaf or hamburger, I'll put it on myself.

oooops.  Did i trip and fall onto a soapbox?   :rolling :rolling :rolling

kk
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Breakin Away on January 28, 2017, 08:00:00 PM
I fully agree, and share your concern about people being fooled and/or forced to buy a cocktail of 6 medicines when 5 of them are unnecessary for a given need. The reason that people are being "forced" is because manufacturers are discontinuing their one- or two-medication products in their race to have more comprehensive label claim on multi-symptom concoctions. For instance, "Sudafed" has become a brand instead of a trade name for a decongestant. "Sudafed Plus" (which was renamed as "Sudafed Cold & Allergy") was a useful pairing of ingredients because the undesirable side effects canceled each other out, so that was good. Unfortunately you can't even find it anymore, as it's been displaced by multi symptom cocktails that cause some to overdose when people unknowingly double up by taking it in combination with things like Advil.

Off my soapbox now.

Back to the original topic, my specific curiosity was over the implication that WD40 is as bad as silicone. That's a strong condemnation, and I'd like to know what, specifically, makes it deserve that.

Your criticism is more mild and more reasonable. I'd like to compile a list of single-ingredient recommendations for rust removal, penetrating anti-seize, crevice lubrication, etc. Is there a thread that covers these things all in one place?

Back to WD40, I have found it to be a really good plasticizer. I have a really nice inkjet printer that happens to be 20 years old. Only problem is that every few years it stops feeding paper because the rubber rollers dried out and won't grab the paper. Some WD40, applied to the rollers every couple years, has kept it running great. Like Stu, I've found that this makes it really good for restoring the sealing effectiveness of rubberized gaskets on ports, hatches, etc.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: KWKloeber on January 28, 2017, 08:43:19 PM
1. My belief on silicone is that the only place silicone sealant/adhesive belongs on a boat is to glaze the acrylic on a hatch/port, not to use WD-40 or silicone on the gaskets.  I'm not positive which Stu was referring to. I have no problem using silicone lube depending on the location, but usually prefer dry ptfe spray.

2.  I doubt one thread exists, tho all have probably been discussed (hijacked) as herein.  LOL.  Sounds like a good winter's "soft" discussion for those "on the hard."  And then publish on the wiki?  Maybe Practical Sailor has something in its archives.

kk
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: KWKloeber on January 28, 2017, 09:37:43 PM
Don't get me wrong on this ..............regarding tools, etc., that equally serve multi purposes vs a single purpose, especially on a storage-space-challenged boat, I'll carry a multi-driver over 6 or 8 single screw and nut drivers and hose clamp drivers.  That's why I have a 12v pump set up that serves as my oil and tranny fluid change pump, washdown pump, pink stuff pump, water tank emptying pump, and emergency fuel lift, fuel transfer, extra bilge, raw water cooling pump.  Not so much when it comes to salted garlic bread.

kk

Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Stu Jackson on January 28, 2017, 10:32:41 PM
No need to paint it, Bill. Paint traps heat, right?   But throw away the WD40.  I think of it as silicone (only place to use it is on the Beckson ports).  Get Boeshield T9 for that use, and PB Blaster to remove stubborn nuts & bolts.
Just to keep this fact-based, what offending ingredient does WD-40 contain, and what are its objectionable effects?

There are better products for loosening stuck nuts & bolts than WD40.  Much better.

And butyl tape is much better sealant than silicone.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on January 29, 2017, 07:21:38 AM
WOW! did that take a left turn and go 'round the block...  All good stuff guys, I learn so much every time I read a post or ask a question.

Stu - As you suggested, I'll leave the gearbox unpainted and use Boeshield T9 to protect it.  I'll also use it to protect my new stuffing box as suggested on another site.  I'm assuming your dislike of silicone is in reference to silicone caulk as a sealant?

Ken - I used a liberal amount of 50/50 Tranny Fluid/Acetone as a penetrating oil on my prop and coupling a week before attempting removal.  I was somewhat careful not to get the mix on the tranny I am removing and anything else.  I've read a number of times that mix is much more effective as a penetrating oil than most off-the shelf penetrating oils including WD40, PB Blaster and Kroil.

Breakin' Away - So, I just looked up the WD40 Ingredients and it looks like the predominant ingredient is mineral oil.  Either way, I've not been a fan of WD40 for two reasons.  1. I've never thought it was a very good penetrating oil 2. I hate the way it smells and it seems to linger forever.   The last thing I want to do is introduce yet another smell on the boat and will try alternatives.  With that in mind, would mineral oil be useful in restoring port gaskets?
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Stu Jackson on January 29, 2017, 08:44:23 AM
Stu - As you suggested, I'll leave the gearbox unpainted and use Boeshield T9 to protect it.  I'll also use it to protect my new stuffing box as suggested on another site.  I'm assuming your dislike of silicone is in reference to silicone caulk as a sealant?

Silicone can be a good sealant.  I just rebedded my traveler track after 16 or 17 years, not too bad, right?  Wrong.  Silicone is a bear to remove.  If I used butyl tape 17 years ago, I would not have had to redo it, it would still be dry down below.

Port gaskets?  Ask the vendors: Beckson and Lewmar.  The Beckson website is full of very good info.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on January 29, 2017, 04:34:02 PM
I assume there aren't too many C34's with M25XPBs but, for those interested... Other than being a contortionist, I was able to remove the ZF5 & adapter plate from the bell housing on my Universal M25XPB on my '87 C34 without moving the engine or heat exchanger.

The shaft, stuffing box & coupling weren't present but, I'm sure I would've had enough room to slide the input shaft out of the damper plate if I pushed the shaft as far back as possible.

The 2 middle 17mm bolts on the port and stbd sides on the adapter plate were a bear because the gear box is so close to the bolt a socket would not fit.  I was successful with a 17mm crows foot open end wrench on a 1/2" ratchet with long extension to get enough torque to loosen them.  I'll be able to use a torque wrench on the upper and lower bolts port & stbd for the re-install but will need to go best effort when reinstalling the two middle bolts with a crows foot.

i'll be going back next weekend to remove the damper plate.  I think it should be pretty straight forward removing with the bell housing in place provided I turn the crank shaft to put the 5 damper plate bolts in a position to remove them with an allen wrench.  It looks like an RD on my 2005 M25XPB, not the SACHS sold by Catalina Direct.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: KWKloeber on January 29, 2017, 05:20:40 PM
Quote
Paint traps heat, right?   

Does it, I mean more than, over time a layer of oxidation on the aluminum case?  How about "aluminum paint", or an aluminum etching primer, no surface coat?  Would those transfer heat better than T9 (maybe last longer?)  Just questions. 

There's also other semi permanent moisture proofing, protectant sprays out there -- SuperLube brand's comes to mind, for one.  I'll be using that on an assembly in the near future and will report back!

k
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: J_Sail on January 30, 2017, 01:38:44 PM
I am unaware of any testing data that demonstrates any significant increase in internal temperature of a transmission or engine when painted vs bare. At the few mils coating thickness, paint offers very little insulation value, and its black box radiation characteristics are more favorable than bare metal.

Also, a dry painted surface is going to stay cleaner than one coated with T-9 or other corrosion protectant. And, corrosion protectants need reapplication occasionally. Corrosion protectants make sense when paint is impractical, but if the tranny is removed, why not prep/paint it and have one less thing to worry about?
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Noah on January 30, 2017, 03:36:24 PM
My Hurth 50 is painted Westerbeke Bronze like the rest of my engine. I would guess most older boats are as well. No issues.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on January 30, 2017, 04:12:49 PM
I ordered the Universal silver blue spray paint last week for the gearbox and touch up the engine.  If I were to paint the gearbox, what's the recommended prep?  I assume something to get the grease or petroleum products off the exterior but I'm not sure what.  A mild detergent or something more aggressive...
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Stu Jackson on January 30, 2017, 05:34:06 PM
Question:  IIRC, the gearbox is aluminum, the engine is steel.  Wouldn't one need different paint?
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: KWKloeber on January 30, 2017, 07:06:56 PM
Stu,

Painting aluminum is problematic.  I stripped my spars down and repainted them with Dupont Imron.  I had a client who painted aluminum truck bodies and he got the process down for me and ordered what I needed.  The key is that as we know aluminum quickly  (like in 20 minutes) develops a coating that defies perfect adhesion of paint. 

I D/A sanded, then immediately used an etching cleaner that I brushed on and scrubbed with 3M pads.   Water rinse.  Another sudsy cleaner and a water rinse.  Then an etching primer, followed by 2 coats of Imron (2-part epoxy paint)  All this had to be done w/ each step immediately following the other.

A web search or talking to an auto paint supplier would define the recommended cleaner/primer.  For a less technical route, Rustoleum for instance makes an etching primer. 

ken
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Stu Jackson on January 30, 2017, 08:17:22 PM
For a less technical route, Rustoleum for instance makes an etching primer. 


Thanks, Ken.  Do you know if the Rustoleum primer can just be painted on and then painted over with an applicable finish coat?  IIRC, the Rustoleum products come in satin, semi-satin or gloss, but this may be for steel and not aluminum and I may be confusing the primer with their finish coat material.  Wouldn't be the first time I was confused.  Or the last.  :D
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Noah on January 30, 2017, 08:30:22 PM
Ken- I am not a chemist, but I thought Imron (Dupont) was an LP (linear polyurethane) not an epoxy. What is the difference between the two? After I stripped the rigging, my aluminum spars were prepped and LP sprayed, without a lot of "drama" 2-years ago by the same yard that I have used to LP paint fiberglas hulls, aluminum hulls and aluminum spars, since the early 1980's. To do my mast and boom was not cheap however--$60 per lineal foot. But they are beautiful and should last 10+ years.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: KWKloeber on January 30, 2017, 08:35:23 PM
I don't -- I haven't used it. 

But I doubt the primer comes in different sheens, however the RO website has pretty good into and I have emailed them thru the website re: another  question -- with a fairly quick reply.

Ken
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: KWKloeber on January 30, 2017, 08:46:01 PM
Maybe you're right Noah -- possibly it Imron, although Imron is what they used in their own manufacturing process. 

Also, we added a little flattener to cut the gloss slightly, and I'm unsure if that would have been compatible with epoxy paint.

Or I may be mistaken that it was 2-part!   

CRS -- it was ~ 18 years ago!

kk
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Ted Pounds on February 04, 2017, 03:35:21 PM
Ken- I am not a chemist, but I thought Imron (Dupont) was an LP (linear polyurethane) not an epoxy. What is the difference between the two? After I stripped the rigging, my aluminum spars were prepped and LP sprayed, without a lot of "drama" 2-years ago by the same yard that I have used to LP paint fiberglas hulls, aluminum hulls and aluminum spars, since the early 1980's. To do my mast and boom was not cheap however--$6 per lineal foot. But they are beautiful and should last 10+ years.

You are correct, Imron is a 2-part LP paint.  It's popular on airplanes.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: KWKloeber on February 04, 2017, 05:23:30 PM
Thanks for clarifying Ted.  I recalled it was 2-part, mistaken on my part that it was epoxy!  ( CRS from that many years ago  :D )

ken

Ken- I am not a chemist, but I thought Imron (Dupont) was an LP (linear polyurethane) not an epoxy. What is the difference between the two? After I stripped the rigging, my aluminum spars were prepped and LP sprayed, without a lot of "drama" 2-years ago by the same yard that I have used to LP paint fiberglas hulls, aluminum hulls and aluminum spars, since the early 1980's. To do my mast and boom was not cheap however--$6 per lineal foot. But they are beautiful and should last 10+ years.

You are correct, Imron is a 2-part LP paint.  It's popular on airplanes.
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Ted Pounds on February 06, 2017, 05:23:40 PM
What does CRS stand for?  I used to know but I forgot...   :donno: :think
Title: Re: Transmission Replacement
Post by: Ken Krawford on February 07, 2017, 03:17:52 AM
"Can't Remember Squat"   :D

What does CRS stand for?  I used to know but I forgot...   :donno: :think