Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: britinusa on July 06, 2016, 07:04:50 PM

Title: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 06, 2016, 07:04:50 PM
We get about 1.25" of water with black particulate in the bilge after a 45 minute motor (ie. typically during the trip from the Ocean to the slip)

Today we pumped it out, about 1.75 gallons.

It's black, but does not appear to be particularly oily.

We dried out the bilge and did an initial clean up.
Also wiped down the sides of the aqua lift muffler plastic tank.

Then ran the engine at low to not so low revs for about 10 minutes.

No sign of the water leak from viewing under the aft berth or the head cupboard.

Plan is to check paper towel strips by the Aqua lift during the next trip.

Any suggestions to finding this leak much appreciated.

There is no One Hump tube just a regular exhaust tube from the riser to the aqualift.
No sign of water leak from the exhaust tube at the thru hull in the aft locker.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 07, 2016, 10:16:12 AM
Left the collected water in a jug overnight. After 24 hours, no oil floating on top, the particulates were not clumped but could be seen easily.

When I pumped out the bilge, I put the water in 2 jugs. The first jug was from the lower part of the water in the bilge, the second contained the remaining water. The first jug's contents were almost clear, the second was the nasty stuff.

Plan is to take the boat out for a motor on Friday and inspect it every few minutes looking for leaks.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Ron Hill on July 07, 2016, 03:06:03 PM
Paul : If there is no oil in that black water, I'll guess that you have a leak in the lower exhaust riser and/or the muffler.  Or the exhaust hose into or from the muffler??

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Noah on July 07, 2016, 03:38:15 PM
Whatever the case may be, while you are there, add a hump hose.
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 07, 2016, 04:58:24 PM
Paul

Does your crankcase vent hose hang into the bilge, or go to the air intake?

kk
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 07, 2016, 05:24:50 PM
Hmmm, Not sure, I'll inspect it tomorrow.


Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 07, 2016, 05:34:05 PM
Possible that blow by is tossing a lot of crap into / floating in the bilge?

ken
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 09, 2016, 06:45:38 PM
got down to the boat today to measure for the Hump Hose.

I have ordered the 8" hose (existing hose is about 7" long)
Also ordered the engine to riser gasket & anti everything gooe.

forgot to look at the crankcase hose.

So either Sunday or Monday for that.

I keep my dremel on board so it should be easy (ha!) to cut out the hold hose.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 10, 2016, 07:48:03 AM
Paul, some Tip & Tricks about some of the work you are about to do are in this recent Tech Notes article:  http://www.c34.org/mainsheet/html/2016/Muffler%20&%20Exhaust%20Riser%20Replacement.html (http://www.c34.org/mainsheet/html/2016/Muffler%20&%20Exhaust%20Riser%20Replacement.html)
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 10, 2016, 09:14:18 AM
Thanks Stu, I had not seen that article (probably did in the original Mainsheet article)

? - The nuts on the exhaust manifold appear to be new - Did you replace them or was that during an earlier project?

Any chance you have a link to repairing the muffler - just in case I find the need when I cut off the old input hose.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 10, 2016, 09:21:05 AM
Paul

I previously posted a PFD article from another who repairf a comprehensive repair on an aqualift.  It's on the techwiki - look under the engine topics.

Kk
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 10, 2016, 09:23:22 AM
PS.  Evaluate your flange condition - you may want to have new studs at the ready. 
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 10, 2016, 10:42:43 AM


? - The nuts on the exhaust manifold appear to be new - Did you replace them or was that during an earlier project?

Any chance you have a link to repairing the muffler - just in case I find the need when I cut off the old input hose.


Paul, those are the original 1986 nuts on the studs.  I forget the thread, so if you need new nuts, take one off and go to a well stocked hardware store, make sure you get the right thread, fine or coarse.

Repairing the muffler shouldn't be necessary unless you really F-up the removal of the old hose.  Just use a box cutter and work slowly.  You may have to use a wire cutter to get the wire reinforcing off, but if you've gone that far, then the hose should come off.

You may be interested in this:  "What's in Your Muffler?"

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6728.0.html

Ken's pointers and links are great, too.
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 10, 2016, 11:47:27 AM
The studs are UNF thread on the nut end and UNC thread on the manifold end, and 2 different lengths.

See the parts manual on TW

Some have used red RTV on the exh gasket.  Not saying that's a good or bad idea, but if you do, make sure you don't  ooze any  into the water ports on the manifold.

kk
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 10, 2016, 12:22:53 PM
Thanks Ken & Stu.
Those links say it all.

Will take lots of pics as I progress the hump hose install & muffler repair if found it's needed.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Ron Hill on July 10, 2016, 01:32:02 PM
Paul : Look in the old Mainsheet tech note and you'll find 3 articles
1. Hump hose
2. Removing/replacing the exhaust riser
3. Replacing the muffler

You never did mention where the "black water" leak was coming from.
Just curious - before you start throwing parts at the problem!!

A thought
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 10, 2016, 02:14:08 PM
Ron,
right now I'm baffled about the origin of the black water and I'm only guessing that it's from the Muffler.

I've not found any mention in the forum about bilge water with black particulate as yet. But I'm still looking.

The Aqua lift muffler does show signs of weeping around the inlet hose. I'll know better when I get that hose off.

I think that the black particulate may be exhaust particles, hence why I'm focusing on the exhaust system. There was no sign of running water when I ran the engine and viewed it from beneath the aft berth.

It's nice to know that repairing the Muffler is not rocket science.

Paul


Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 10, 2016, 02:20:40 PM

Some have used red RTV on the exh gasket.  Not saying that's a good or bad idea, but if you do, make sure you don't  ooze any  into the water ports on the manifold.

kk

From my linked Tech Note (2016) Muffler Replacement, for those who, for some bizarre reason, don't read the posted links:

Flange Gasket: We carefully cleaned both the end of the exhaust manifold and the flange. This is essential. We used a bit of high temperature RTV gasket material on the flange side of the gasket. This made it easier to deal with the gasket while we aligned the flange and the studs, since the gasket was stuck right on the flange with the RTV. Don't be tempted to slather RTV on the manifold end. First, it isn't necessary if the manifold is perfectly CLEAN, and second, it makes cleaning the manifold end much, much harder the next time, and there will be one.
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 10, 2016, 02:33:14 PM
Did you get a chance to ck the vent hose yet?  Could be dumping the junk into the bilge.   There is a foam filter block under the valve cover, but if yours is routed to the air intake, that's moot.

 
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Ron Hill on July 11, 2016, 01:19:43 PM
Paul : If the black water doesn't have any oil in it forget the crank case vent.

From what you've said I'll guess that at some time your engine had a hi temp problem caused by lack of raw water.  Then what happens is the hot exhaust (not cooled with HX water) deforms the round fiberglass inlet to the muffler.  Once deformed it's impossible to have the hose clamp seal that wire reinforced (very stiff) black hose.

Here's a suggestion: Cut off the old black chunk of wire reinforced hose and then you said you were going to get a hump hose. With the old hose off, inspect that inlet and make sure that it is round.  If not try some Marinetex or epoxy paste to fill in any deformed groves - making sure that you don't increase the inlet diameter.  You just want to make it round so a hose clamp will seal (I double clamp mine). 
Then install the hump hose without removing the exhaust riser. Just put some soap on the inside of the hump hose so it slides in place.

Also make sure that the 5/8"? hose from the anti-siphon with the HX water to the nipple in the exhaust riser is NOT wire reinforced.  It only need be nylon reinforced.  That stiff wire hose puts undo engine vibrations and strain on that nipple weld causing it to crack!! 

A few thoughts 
 
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 11, 2016, 01:30:14 PM
Paul

Ron's suggestion on the inlet - reminds me.  The 1st time I repaired my leaking muffler the inlet/outlets were "ok" but I could see that they could become a problem.  I had a pc of thin aluminum tubing laying around that was a close tolerance fit to the ID.  it may have been from a broken Sunfish spar (CRS) though that seems too heavy (from the little I can remember.) 

I tapped it down into place (tight enough fit so I didn't need any epoxy) and it strongly reinforced and kept them 'round'.  If you find the inlet squashed and can find a similar tube it would probably "re-round it" and also reinforce it.

k
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 11, 2016, 03:43:34 PM
Ron, Ken,
thanks again.

both those ideas make sense.

The Hump is on order, but I'm going to head down to the boat either Tuesday or Definitely Wednesday and cut out the old inlet hose.

Will report on inspection.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 11, 2016, 10:34:54 PM
............................but I'm going to head down to the boat either Tuesday or Definitely Wednesday and cut out the old inlet hose.

Will report on inspection.

Pictures, take and post them, please.  We always like to see how somebody else skins their knuckles!!!   :thumb: :clap :cry4` :D :D :D
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 13, 2016, 11:41:16 AM
Update.
1st! Thanks everyone!
Because of the support on this site and the volumes of experience from other owners, this job so far has been a doddle!

Step 1: Remove the hose from the Exhaust riser to the Muffer and Inspect the hose and muffler / exhaust connections.
This was really easy!

I opened the head cupboard door and taped it open to the head doorway.
Next: disconnect the hot and cold water hoses from the head sink faucet
Next: disconnect the raw water hose from the sea water strainer
Move all those hoses out of the way.

Next I removed the 4 clamps on the Muffler Inlet hose.

I used my dremel to cut a vertical slit in the middle of the tube on the outboard side of the short hose, piercing the hose. Then extended the slit up to the to of the hose being careful to just cut through the steel reinforcing wire. As I did so the tube stated to split open wider and wider. I was able to dremel my way through the top of the hose but could not get all the way down to the muffler without risk of cutting into the muffler fiber glass. So I used a sharp knife to cut through the remaining hose and the whole hose came out easily.

Now I cleaned up the muffler to inspect it. Definitely signs of cracks around the hose connection. So I removed the outlet hose too. No cutting this time.
I removed the two hose clamps on the outlet hose then pried up the lower edge of the hose with a large flathead screw driver, then with both hands inside the cupboard I was able to twist the hose back and forth and disconnect it from the muffler.

Cleaned up the outlet connection. Same thing, signs of cracks around the connections where the are attached to the muffler.

In both cased, the inlet and outlet tubes, the cracks were minor. So I elected to seal and reinforce them with marine epoxy.
After using a wire brush to clean the area around the tubes and then sand paper to roughen the surface and a clean up. I applied about 1/4" rod of the epoxy putty and forced into the area that I thought were cracks.

It's setting now, (that was two hours ago, so it should be steel hard by now)

And now I have two questions.
#1 What is the best thing to put on the new hump hose to make sure that it's easy to take off in the future without cutting it.

#2 And this one is my main concern. Do I need to adjust my exhaust riser?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6807cLBHb4Qn9Y_z4TyFLtJZW-1ccWRGa49vUlZvNuI88Xe4gRmrAB5QjNHjUjIvIElXdK9M-cZbb_bRlhJx-yifU26F2ZlvlTFxLhD0PK1eMP_GTtIYogwa5AJkU4wKL3MBsVTopd1NcAgz1V49MuwkQQnUOBrFn-0hD2Xpxt30R0xaNfPVHSp6I2uwE0rtZLLak018FutCGlpP0zEaIvFKVPyphs0kpYQRuw100wEAouLJJN_OZ-fg491Z1nYKF40t0OQdyvW8uCsY3lWDp-3BjSA9axkKrmeKOA49Cf7znDKn2WZjTJHpx-8yyi_jYgENz80j-Y3jWZtnMcJMpnJBEvZkoyXJ_JsENvxcXnmvhra_u_2RV2bRVVto1tqwRG_sTDc6FF1lbP8DnvxYLUNUQX-49iiEDAq5KF-T2UPhXgwu6TCIZpjHK01ASHoyomjTkN9FHmrf4klu18ip0jLCSQxmPoZLS7YjGApap85HxZ9MkPLBKkGGbH6jWczBmx01b593PTm3R5-_fBXXLGEo0tPpSiDRSm1GJRt5w-EzZP6WpMK3Yk8vbf3MdlpIdnuPdShaDOMo8VaahvypdNKM2aVqSZk=w380-h685-no)

I hope that you can see that the exhaust riser tube and the muffler tube are not even close to being parallel. Can/Should I correct that by rotating the riser?

The new hump hose has arrived, definitely more flexible than the old black exhaust tubing, but I think I'm going to have to cut it down from the 8.5" delivered size to something more like 6". I'm anticipating putting the top end in place first and then bending the hump hose to attach it to the muffler tube.

Thanks. More pics being uploaded to my Blog.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 13, 2016, 11:54:17 AM
C'mon Paul, not even one skinned knuckle?  Surely there must be a blood picture coming?

Pics didn't load up?

k
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 13, 2016, 01:55:33 PM
I did get grimy under my manicure!

Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 13, 2016, 02:20:20 PM
Cutting out the Inlet Hose
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 13, 2016, 02:21:10 PM
Ugly Nipple end of Riser
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 13, 2016, 02:25:16 PM
The Inlet Hose Connection on the Muffler
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Ron Hill on July 13, 2016, 02:46:56 PM
Paul : Looks good!! 
I'd put the hump hose on the muffler first and then bend it down to fit it onto the riser.  Like I mentioned before, I'd put some dishwashing soap on the inside and maybe even coat the muffler inlet and the riser - so it slides on easily. 
Don't get the soap on the outside of the hump hose or you'll be working with a "greased pig"!!

Looking at the distance, I'd cut the hump hose to 6 3/4" to get the max overlap.  You can always cut it shorter if need be!!

Don't know what you mean by "adjust the exhaust riser"??  The hump hose is bendable enough to take any lateral play needed.

A few thoughts    :clap
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 13, 2016, 03:30:34 PM
Thanks Ron.

And the goop to allow future removal without cutting it?

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 13, 2016, 03:50:11 PM
I did get grimy under my manicure!

Paul the math says side it onto whichever nipple is the longest or that you can force as much of the hump onto, if it's as easy to for from either direction.  But that's just the engineer talking.  Well not really, that's how I got my hose back on the C30.

A little SuperLube gel might work for - it's PTFE based and would be compatible with the silicone and might (repeat MIGHT) hold up to the heat over time.  it would probably work fine for insertion also.

k
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 13, 2016, 08:58:27 PM
Rector's Pipe Dope on the muffler tubes and the riser end.  ACE Hardware.

Comes off every time, stays put.

Don't cut the hump hose until you actually place it in front of and on the top of the muffler and make sure of the fit.

Nice work, Paul.

Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Dave Spencer on July 14, 2016, 09:16:46 AM
Looks good Paul!
I did this several years ago and I now realize I should have taken 5 minutes to remove the head sink hoses making access easier.  Here is my documentation of the job.
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6878.msg45884.html#msg45884 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6878.msg45884.html#msg45884)

From Stu's post: 
Pictures, take and post them, please.  We always like to see how somebody else skins their knuckles!!!   :thumb: :clap :cry4` :D :D :D

Note the skinned knuckle in the first picture proving that it's a real honest to goodness boat project!  :D
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 14, 2016, 10:13:05 AM
PS. Use ABA type clamps for the hump, (as well as any new!! or critical!! clamp location) 
I essentially changed ALL my clamps to the solid band (ABA or AWAB).

kk
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 14, 2016, 01:42:39 PM
PS. Use ABA type clamps for the hump, (as well as any new!! or critical!! clamp location) 
I essentially changed ALL my clamps to the solid band (ABA or AWAB).

kk

Ken, I got that process early on. So I purchased a complete kit of clamps and tool.
Whenever I work on a tube/pipe that has clamps, I replace them to the AWAB type. I also purchased 4 additional boxes of clamps in the popular sizes.

A huge (to me) benefit of using them is that they all use the same tool! No having to pull out the socket set and figure which size to use.

That makes it easy to pull a hose of real quick (such as when the raw water intake ingest a sandwich bag or clump of Sargasso.)

Also, whenever I use double clamps, I put the screws on opposite sides of the hose so that they counter each other.

I'm learning guys!

Paul

Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Ron Hill on July 14, 2016, 05:25:50 PM
Paul : I wrote this up before, but it's worth repeating:

Because the hump hose is a soft material I cut a piece of pliable leather and wrapped it around the hump hose so it acted a "chafe guard".  The hose clamps then could not cut into the hump hose when tightened.

A thought
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 14, 2016, 05:38:58 PM
Ron,

What clamps did you use? 

Since the ABA / ABWA types are rounded bands (don't cut into the hose) and since it's sillycone you don't need to crank on them as on the OEM hose (gentlier on the inlet nipple.)  Would still think protection is warranted?

ken
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 15, 2016, 12:14:27 PM
Update.
Installing the hump hose was as easy as removing the old hose.

Step 1.. measure the gap between the top of the muffler inlet tube and the bottom of the riser tube.
Step 2..  put two clamps on each end of the hump hose such that they were at least half the gap distance from the center of the hump.  That indicated  the minimum length of the hump hose.
Step 3.. cut the hump hose

I cut the hose with a simple exact knife.

The riser tube was longer than the muffler tube, so I lubricated the inside of both the hose ends and pushed it onto the riser tube as high as I could. Then wiggled the hose to get the lower end onto the muffler tube
Finally I slid the hump down so that it was evenly covering both.

Then installing two clamps on each end.

I'll add pics later.

After reconnecting the raw water and the faucet hoses, replacing the hose clamps as per.

Then ran the engine.

Result.

No leaks from the hump
Obviously less vibration being transferred to the muffler,  it's visible.

Problem. There is a wet area at the point where the nipple connects to the rise. I had the engine running for about 15 min at above idle  and it was barely a drip.

But I did see a drip leak that appears to be where the hoses pass from the head cupboard into the engine bay. Definitely not a fuel drip,  clean,  so probably from the raw water hose.

Can I marine epoxy the around the nipple or is that pushing it.

One more thing. Doing all of this caused me to become aware of position of the hoses and to notice where the touch. I'm going to reroute them to minimize rubbing / abrasion.

Paul

Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 15, 2016, 12:23:42 PM
Paul, are you saying that the injection Y itself is leaking, or that the seawater hose is leaking at that connection?

What type hose is it? wire wound or not?  A stiff hose can transmit vibration that could damage the Y, although theoretically the engine, Hx, manifold, Riser, Y -- all vibrate "together."

kk
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 15, 2016, 12:33:43 PM
Two leaks.
1st. Where the nipple connects to the riser.

2nd. Probably where the raw water hose passes through the engine bay bulkhead.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 15, 2016, 12:52:17 PM
Weeping Riser Nipple
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 15, 2016, 12:58:10 PM
Riser Nipple weep close up
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 15, 2016, 02:06:01 PM
hard to tell - but looks like a beginning of a problem. 
As far as epoxying it, "not the right way to correct it - proceed at your own risk"


Bulkhead - so the hose if worn thru and leaking?  Always an issue where a hose or cable/wire passes thru anything.  I "affixed" my hose where it passes thru the bulkhead (not C34) so it can't vibrate.   You could overkill - remove, put chafe protection around, etc -- Or just remove any sharp points/edges, replace it -- and sleep soundly for at least another 29 years.

k
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 15, 2016, 02:27:35 PM
Ken, that's pretty much as I see it.

Replace the riser (it will be easy to disconnect it from the hump hose  :D)

Replace the raw water hose and probably the hx to riser nipple hose while at it. And put anti chafe in place.

Not sure if I'll need to replace the engine exhaust manifold, it's probably original so nearly 30 years old, looks pretty cruddy.

Maybe now is the time to do the engine mounts, riser, hose and ensure the Tach input is also fixed.

 :cry4`

Time to do more reading on how to's


Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 15, 2016, 02:45:36 PM
Any reason why you would think the exh manifold needs replacing? 
Probably just rusty and cleaned up and repaint?

B-O-A-T, 'eh?

Welcome to boat ownership!

1.   Before you fix anything, you'll need to first fix two other things
2.   If you find something that's standard, a PO has previously replaced the item.
3.   Nothing goes as quickly as you estimate.  Take your most realistic estimate and double it. 
4.   You will need to buy at least one new tool to complete a difficult job (the one good thing.)
5.   A minimum of three trips to home/hardware store/west marine is is average for any job.
6.   3 trips to the boat is average to complete a medium-hard fix.
7.   5 trips to the boat is average to complete an no-brainer fix.
8.   Nothing you buy from a marine source will have complete instructions/installation directions/enough parts to complete the job.
9.   Take #3 and multiply by 3.
10. If you move, disassemble, or adjust anything not associated with the repair at hand, it will break.
11. If you don't, it will break next week.

Why we do love to do this?  LOL!

k
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 15, 2016, 10:28:14 PM
Paul,

I agree with Ken re the manifold.  Sand or ScotchBrite and maybe then paint, but it is it RARE for them to go south.

With what shows in your picture, diss the old riser, and get a new one.  My reply #8 on page 1 explained how, with discussions (but not direct links) to "those who have come before."

You've been "in there" already, you know the territory, and the Tips & Tricks in my Tech Notes should make mincemeat of getting the old riser off.  Wish I'd had those tricks when I did my first two tries!    :D

You have a complete catastrophic riser failure ahead of you, and if it's leaking already, especially right there, it sure ain't gonna get any better, JB Weld or not.

Do it now or do it later.

Your boat, your choice.  :D

Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 16, 2016, 04:43:07 AM
If anyone ever doubts the value of this association membership - having to do a job like this and taking the time to read all of the experience and advice that contributors make here - it's Gold in the Hand!

Decision made.
I'll call CD Monday with Pics of the existing riser with the intent of ordering the Riser kit. Our HX is pretty new, so hopefully it'll be easy (ha!) to remove and make access easy.


So... here's my plan.

Taking lots of pics (pay back for the forum)
Any chance of the torque setting to use when tightening the nuts on the exhaust flange or is it 3 white knuckles?

That's abot 30 steps, with an average of about 10 mins per step, this should take about 5 hours, throw in a few trips to WM and a couple of trips home. This is a two day job minimum (I keep the boat at the back of a house in Fort Lauderdale, 20 mins from the Big West Marine and 30mins from my house)

Heading down to the boat this morning to get started.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 16, 2016, 05:00:16 AM
Is this the correct type for the Anti-siphon to Nipple hose?

http://www.westmarine.com/buy/shields-rubber--series-135-heavy-duty-water-hose--P011_333_001_010 (http://www.westmarine.com/buy/shields-rubber--series-135-heavy-duty-water-hose--P011_333_001_010)

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 16, 2016, 07:47:38 AM
Paul.

Series 130, 135, 160, 200 are all non-helix-wire hoses (in somewhat increasing pressure rating (and so reinforcement/stiffness,) and would work.  The more the reinforcement, also the less likely to kink at a bend.

Or go real sexy w/ sillycone hose at 2x the cost.

The nuts are 3/8" UNF thread.
The studs are 3/8" UNF x 3/8" UNC

heat on the nuts can help break the corrosion

Hi-temp pipe dope, not superlube.

move #28 to after #26.
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 16, 2016, 08:16:39 AM
You don't need to do #9.

#17 - Connect the new Riser to the Exhaust Flange (Pipe Dope or Superlube?) - The CD "kit" comes with stuff to use on the threads between the new riser and the flange.
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 16, 2016, 10:03:22 AM
Stu,

I read your note on removing the lower nut -- JIC, would you recommend a 6-point rather than 12-point box end wrench for that?

kk
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 16, 2016, 11:11:03 AM
Uploaded my Shields marine hose catalog to the TW, under the "Manuals" topic,  "Supplier Catalogs" subtopic.

It is a searchable PDF (e.g., "coolant hose") and I added page bookmarks to locate the catalog section for each type/use  of hose (e.g., <Wet Exhaust System>).

kk
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 16, 2016, 02:37:48 PM
The removal part went well.

The only difficulty was removing the lower of the 3 nuts holding the Exhaust Flange to the Engine. I tried Stu's technique, couldn't do it.
But... I used a 6 point socket and a piece of pipe to extend the socket handle over to the Stbd side of the engine and after liberal applications of PB I was able to get the nut out, well I got the whole Stud out! The top two nuts came off with a bit of grunting, but the bottom one took more time than the rest of the removal job.

The Riser has cracks by the nipple and the Exhaust Flange is beyond cleaning up. So I'll get replacements for both.

The Raw Water hose shows chafe marks where it goes through the hole in the engine bulkhead.

The Raw Water discharge hose came off the Anti Siphon widget with a bit more grunting, I was getting concerned that I might break the siphon, but it's fine. Just had to twist the hoses off.

The amount of fiberglass tape wrapped around the riser by the flange made getting to the lower nut difficult, so I cut that away.

While down there, I released the electrical umbrella that covers the electrical connector block. I'm sure I can make a better job of keeping the block dry from above and making better connections.

Add one thing to the list... Turn off the Bilge Pump! when I disconnected the hose from the water heater, I was surprised how much fluid came out, so I quickly jumped over to the electrical panel and turned the bilge pump off before the float switch kicked in, thus saving any discharge overboard.

FYI. We have a 2 1/2" grand-daughter we care or 3 days a week, Granpa's girl, so we have plenty of disposable diapers around, and some are too small. So I use them on the boat for bilge clean up. They work really well, are very cheap and easy to dispose of.

I pumped out the bilge water (& coolant) using a small hand pump into a container that I took to the local disposal site along with some old containers of old Diesel oil and Truck engine oil.

Pics once they upload from my phone.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 16, 2016, 02:47:52 PM
Ken, I sent a PM.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Ron Hill on July 16, 2016, 06:34:11 PM
Paul : When you reinstall the new riser, don't forget to check that the mating surface for the flange w/riser on he engine is absolutely CLEAN of old gasket material
I'd recommend that you check it Thrice!!  If not clean you find coolant running or dripping out of the internal cooling system when you refill it!!

A thought
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 17, 2016, 12:07:27 AM
Tanks Ron,
The old Exhaust Flange is pretty corroded, I was able to break off about 1/8" of the surface where the Riser screws in.

So far my 'kit' includes, New Riser, New Flange, New Gasket, New Studs, New Insulation Jacket, New Hoses.

Then last night while we (Adm. Peggy) were discussing the project, the issue of reconnecting the hot water heater to the engine came up. So now it's expanded to new Heater hoses (The Water tank was disconnected from the engine when we bought the boat). More research  :santa

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 17, 2016, 12:35:56 AM
Updated Plan


So... here's my plan.

And while I could not sleep tonight (it's 3:15am here in Florida) I came up with a method of setting the angle for the Riser in the Flange - Simple! Just take a 4x2 about 3' long, screw a couple of pieces of Ply to it that are a close fit to the width of the Flange and use that as a Vice/Lever.

Time for more research, I want to make sure the hoses seal well at their connections, need to clean up the mild corrosion on the nipples on the HX and looking at how to rework the electrical connections and figure out how to clean up the Engine side of the Exhaust Flange attachment.

Ken, you were right about the B.O.A.T. and list  :?
Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 17, 2016, 06:18:20 AM
Tanks Ron,
The old Exhaust Flange is pretty corroded, I was able to break off about 1/8" of the surface where the Riser screws in.

So far my 'kit' includes, New Riser, New Flange, New Gasket, New Studs, New Insulation Jacket, New Hoses.

Then last night while we (Adm. Peggy) were discussing the project, the issue of reconnecting the hot water heater to the engine came up. So now it's expanded to new Heater hoses (The Water tank was disconnected from the engine when we bought the boat). More research  :santa

Paul

hmmmmmm....  sounds like a leaking WH to me?

kk
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 17, 2016, 06:40:18 AM
Ken, I do not think we have any Water Heater leaks. I had returned the hot water tank into service late last year, since then we have been able to use the hot water tank system and no leaks.

The hoses from the Tank are sitting in the bottom of the galley enclosure and still run aft to the engine bay stbd side. There is a bypass hose from the Thermostat to the return on the engine.

So I think all I have to do is to replace the hoses (cannot trust them) and connect them in place of the bypass hose.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 17, 2016, 06:45:29 AM
Ken, I do not think we have any Water Heater leaks. I had returned the hot water tank into service late last year, since then we have been able to use the hot water tank system and no leaks.

The hoses from the Tank are sitting in the bottom of the galley enclosure and still run aft to the engine bay stbd side. There is a bypass hose from the Thermostat to the return on the engine.

So I think all I have to do is to replace the hoses (cannot trust them) and connect them in place of the bypass hose.

Paul

Wonder why would PO have bothered to remove the WH coolant loop and install the thermostat bypass hose if thr Wh wasn't leaking?
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 17, 2016, 07:08:57 AM
No clue, except that he also disconnected the 110v from the heater and the water heater was also bypassed (ie. The hot water tank inlet and outlet hoses were connected to each other and not to the tank)

Before I recommissioned the heater, I removed the tank and inspected it for leaks (connected a hose to it at full house pressure) and shorts, installed a new 110v element.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 17, 2016, 07:17:20 AM
No clue, except that he also disconnected the 110v from the heater and the water heater was also bypassed (ie. The hot water tank inlet and outlet hoses were connected to each other and not to the tank)

Before I recommissioned the heater, I removed the tank and inspected it for leaks (connected a hose to it at full house pressure) and shorts, installed a new 110v element.

Paul

curiouser and curiouser.  Was the heating element bad, or replaced JIC?
and you pressure tested both sides - potable and coolant?

k
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 17, 2016, 08:03:19 AM
Yep, I believe that I tested by pressurizing both the Fresh Water and the Engine coolant water connections to the tank.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 17, 2016, 09:54:55 AM
Updated Plan


  • Connect the New Riser to the New Exhaust Flange (Pipe Dope or Superlube?
Again, the CD riser comes with the proper stuff to use on these threads.  They also include a nice how to manual.
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Ron Hill on July 17, 2016, 02:56:30 PM
Paul : Look at your E-flange nuts and if they are the least bit rounded I'd replace them.

Also check thrice that the engine mating part of the engine riser & flange is absolutely clean!!  Riser side is easy to check!

Also make the "Dollar Bill" check, to make sure that CD didn't use tooo much insulation so the dollar bill will  easily pass between the HX and the seated riser/flange.

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 17, 2016, 03:05:35 PM
Ron, is the dollar bill test still applicable when using the new style insulation jacket from CD?

http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/2590/exhaust-riser-thermal-jacket-for-11-34-riser.cfm (http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/2590/exhaust-riser-thermal-jacket-for-11-34-riser.cfm)

When I removed the Riser & Exhaust Flange, the top two nuts came off the studs but the lower stud came out!

CD sells new studs and I was considering getting them. But not sure of the best method of removing the old top studs.

Paul

Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 18, 2016, 03:11:59 PM
Update.
B.O.A.T, it's getting close!

Ordered the new Riser, two part Insulating Jackets, Studs and a Drain valve for the Muffler (WYIT)

It looks as though I'll have to move the Muffler 1.5" to port as the standard Riser for the C34 is 1.5" wider than the one I removed. So it will be a bit of a jiggle but very doable.

Also ordered New Water hose sufficient from the Strainer to the Water pump, Water pump to the Heat Eachanger and Heat Exchanger to the Anti Siphon unit. Plus a Silicone hose for connecting the Anti Siphon unit to the Nipple on the Riser.

Throw in a set of Flange Studs & Nuts, and the kit includes the Pipe Dope for connecting the Riser to the Flange. And I have plenty of new AWAB hose clamps for the job to make it look really good.

The whole shebang should arrive by end of day Thursday ready for doing the install (at least starting it) this weekend.

More pics coming.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 18, 2016, 03:48:32 PM

It looks as though I'll have to move the Muffler 1.5" to port as the standard Riser for the C34 is 1.5" wider than the one I removed. So it will be a bit of a jiggle but very doable.

Paul, beofre you do that "extra" work, please reread my article, earlier linked.  I bought the very same riser you are getting, and also installed an OEM muffler in THE VERY SAME PLACE.

The "answer" is to get the riser as HIGH as possible over the muffler and make the hump hose as LONG as possible, and the hump hose will twist enough to make the connection.  It looks a tad goofy, but it works.

Saves all the unnecessary effort of moving the muffler.

There is no reason at all to assure that the bottom of the riser is exactly in line with the inlet of the muffler, as long as there's enough distance between them.   Make the hump hose as long as possible.
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 18, 2016, 05:08:05 PM
Thanks stu.
The plan is to install the riser and see what changes are needed.

Oaul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Ron Hill on July 19, 2016, 02:20:21 PM
Paul : The reason for the "Dollar Bill" test is to make sure that the riser is NOT pressing against the HX!!!!
That was the reason that the hoses clamps that hold the HX in it's saddle were breaking.

Just make sure there is clearance.  I used a dollar bill because I can't see around corners.

A thought
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Noah on July 19, 2016, 03:08:32 PM
Paul- check (and change?) your tranny fluid while you have the HX out, it's more convenient.
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 19, 2016, 05:14:37 PM
Paul,

For future access to the tranny fluid, here's a trick I devised that may or may not work for you.

I had an old Nalgene plastic squeeze lab bottle, kinda like the Harbor Freight ones here 
(http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_7770.jpg)
http://www.harborfreight.com/pack-of-3-8-oz-storage-bottles-with-twist-caps-66170.html 
(but better quality)  and put a vinyl hose on the tip and marked the body at 0.3 liter.

I fill it to my mark, insert the hose in the fill hole, tip up and squeeze the bottle -- no muss no fuss.  Previously it was a bear to avoid (never did) spilling or dripping fluid all over.

Doesn't apply to you , I also have a (remnant from when I winter-stored on the hard) squeeze-bulb-type battery filler with the stem marked at the same length as the tranny dipstick 'full mark.' 

In fall, I'd suck the tranny dry with my oil change pump and completely refill it (overkill, maybe.)  Then in spring I'd pull the level down from 'completely full' to the operating level using my TFA (tranny fluid adjuster.)   Again no muss no fuss.

kk
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 19, 2016, 07:43:37 PM
Did a transmission oil change in June.

I used a turkey butter injector with a tube, but I like Kens Plasi bottle better.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 20, 2016, 02:15:29 PM
Wow!
I ordered the Riser, Insulation Jackets (2), Studs, Exhaust Flange and Muffler Drain valve late Monday afternoon

They all arrived this afternoon at 3.15pm EST!

Thanks CD!

The Raw Water hoses and the silicone hose also arrived this afternoon - Thanks Ken!

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 22, 2016, 12:20:46 PM
Had a good day on the boat today working on both this project (Riser replacement) and Replacing the Engine Electrical Harness.

Confirmed that I need to move the Muffler 1.5" outboard in order to fit the new Riser.
Disconnected the muffler from it's plywood base, measured for new base.
FYI, once the 4 screws were removed, the muffler did not want to come off the supporting base. A very small amount of leverage with a large screwdriver popped it off the base easily.

I'm going to make a new base to fit over the top of the old one, This will not only allow me to move the Muffler 1.5" outboard but it will raise it up 5/8" so clear the hoses in that area.
The base measured 12 3/8" by 13 1/8" and is 5/8" thick.
The new base will be the same size but will be screwed onto the old base but mounted 1.5" towards the port side before mounting the muffler to the new base.

I was able to remove the old Exhaust Flange Studs using a pretty heavy duty pipe wrench, they came out relatively easy. I had been concerned that the coolant tank might get damaged while removing the studs, but there was not even the need to use a hammer, just a good bit of grunting.

Tomorrow I plan on installing the new muffler base, and the new studs, but the installation of the new Riser and Water hoses will wait till the new Electrical harness is installed.

So far this is going really well.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on July 23, 2016, 04:13:09 PM
Got the new Muffler base installed and the Muffler now lines up nicely with the slightly longer riser.

Installing the base was pretty easy, bit of a grunt to screw it to the old base and then the Muffler to the new base, but it worked out. Used my trusty HF Right angled screw driver.

Pics on my blog. http://www.sailingeximius.com (http://www.sailingeximius.com)

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on August 12, 2016, 02:22:54 PM
Latest update.
This job has grown (normal) so here's the latest update and a question about prop shaft to gearbox alignment.

The Exhaust repair job expanded to include a complete engine electrical harness rebuild and new Engine Motor Mounts.

I had used a caliper to measure the height from the top of the engine mounting brackets to the engine support stringers. Then after redrilling the mount holes in the stringer (the new Vetus mounts holes are about 1/8" less between centers ) I lowered the engine on the new mounts and adjusted the support nuts to get the engine back on the earlier measurements.

Then, with the engine hoist unloaded, I put the 4 bolts into the propshaft to gearbox flange and put the nuts and spring washers on finger tight (barely)

Measured the gap between the shaft flange and gearbox flange and had between .007" and 009" gap. I think that if I tighten up the 4 bolts, that gap will go away.

Read a bunch of posts and wiki notes on engine alignment, but could not find anything definitive.

Does anyone have a good link to a step by step procedure for doing the alignment?

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Noah on August 12, 2016, 03:02:43 PM
Sorry, I do not but sure others will have for you. Making sure the prop shaft is centered in the shaft tube exiting the boat--that would be my first step.
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on August 12, 2016, 03:12:20 PM
Hopefully the Cutlass bearing change we had done last year is still in good shape.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Noah on August 12, 2016, 03:16:39 PM
What I was getting at was bring the engine to the shaft not the other way around...
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: KWKloeber on August 12, 2016, 04:24:16 PM
Hopefully the Cutlass bearing change we had done last year is still in good shape.

Paul

The new cutlass will assure that the prop end is centered, the log end needs to be centered also.
See also http://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Aligning_the_Shaft

kk
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on August 13, 2016, 07:13:30 AM
Thanks Ken, that link was just the ticket.

Pretty confident that I will be able to follow those instructions.

Basically - move the engine aft so that at least one of the prop shaft flange 1/4 positions touch the gearbox flange, then move the engine aft/front/up/down/port/stbd/clockwise/anticlockwise until the other 3 1/4 positions are less than 0.003"
Rotate the shaft 90 degrees and measure again, adjust to less than .003" and repeat for all 4 quadrants.
At that point, tighten the prop nuts & bolts, and tighten down on the top engine mount nuts.

FYI, I did clean off the crud from the 4 prop bolts so that I would not have to sweat it getting the nuts on.

For anyone else replacing the old style mounts with Vetus K75 models. The bolt holes on the new mounts may not quite line up with the old mount holes. Also, with the engine raised, it's easy to get to the 2 front mounting lag bolts, then just loosen the aft bolts on the front mounts and turn the mounts 108 degrees to make it easy to remove the aft bolt. Do the same for the Aft mounts. I did not have to go into the aft berth to access the mount bolts.

And... the Harbor Freight 1/4ton lever chain hoist worked great! I was able to manage the engine movements single handed.

More later.

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on September 03, 2016, 03:36:27 PM
Had a successful day! The harness install is complete, so to the Riser, New Riser insulation jacket, Engine Mounts, Hook up to Water tank, new Raw Water Hoses, and engine crank case breather connect to the modified Air filter.

Today we started the engine! WooHoo! Vibration is substantially reduced (K75 Mounts) new Instruments worked great, really pleased.

Posted pics in my blog. (http://www.sailingeximius.com)

Special Thanks to Ken Kloeber (KK)

Paul
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: Ron Hill on September 04, 2016, 12:06:34 PM
Paul : Told you so - just like you have a new engine with no more vibration isn't it?! 
From the original mounts to the Vetus is like day and night!

Just make sure that you don't drip any oil (it will soften the rubber) on that right front engine mount when you change the oil filter. 
I wrote and article in the Mainsheet tech notes where I took a small plastic food container, drilled a 1/2" hole in the top and cut one side.  Then I could slide that container over that engine mount to protect it from and oil drips when I changed the oil filter.

a few thoughts
Title: Re: Do I have an exhaust water leak?
Post by: britinusa on September 04, 2016, 03:39:48 PM
Thanks Ron.

This afternoon we ran the engine at 2,000 RPM (according to the tach) for 15minutes in gear tied hard to the dock.
Engine temp rose to 145 (just below 150 on the instrument) and stayed there.

Then we took the boat out for a 20 min drive down to the first bridge and back.

Most significant was the reduction in vibration of the cabin steps.

I had never viewed the shaft when the engine was running, so I don't know if the run out is acceptable. I'm going to get/order a dial test indicator tomorrow and check the shaft.

Now that the new hump hose is installed, the vibration between the riser and the aqua lift is obvious, so no wonder the previous cracks in the muffler.

In the cockpit, the vibration is .... wow! what vibration! compared to the previous experience.

So really pleased so far and planning on actually taking the boat out next weekend for an overnight.

In anticipation of being able to get the dial test indicator tomorrow, any idea of a maximum acceptable run out value?

Paul