Just installed our new Garhaer Traveler - WOW!
During the upgrade, Peggy assisted by sliding the new Garhauer traveler glide onto the old Traveler bar.
I held the delivery bar in place and Peggy slide the new glide onto the the old bar. Having been unable to move the traveler with any ease over the past year, despite lubricating the glide and the sheaves, the new glide slid with so much ease that it virtually floated across the bar.
Today I completed the install. I had custom ordered the traveler to include turning blocks so that the control lines could be led aft alongside the other sail control lines, to the cockpit.
The new traveler is simply amazing! It's a breeze to operate from the cockpit, in fact the lines are long enough to be controlled from the helm.
Thanks to the other forum members that suggested the turning block rather than have the line run through additional holes in the dodger.
Here's a link to my blog showing the upgrade.
http://www.sailingeximius.com/2016/05/new-traveller-done.html (http://www.sailingeximius.com/2016/05/new-traveller-done.html)
We're going to test it out on the water tomorrow, Sunday, during a day sail in preparation for participation in a race next weekend.
Paul
And today we got to test it out under load!
Dang, it makes an incredible difference! Adjusting the traveler position in winds about 15knots was a one handed event and even Peggy could manage it.
The two control lines reach back to the helm, but as Peggy can adjust it, there's not normally any need for them to go back that far. However, if I were single handing (Peggy below) then the lines at the helm would be an easy way to adjust the traveler in gusts/falls.
This has been the mod that has made so much of a difference that it might be the best mod yet!
https://youtu.be/PLDewGVHj5w (https://youtu.be/PLDewGVHj5w)
Paul
What did you use to lube your old traveler. Improbably should do mine. Thanks for the reminder.
Tried WD40, and One Touch.
Paul
Looks good. I'm getting excited to try my new one out in a couple weeks. I replaced the bar also.
Do you have a Doyle Stack Pack? How do you like it, was thinking of getting one. With my wife and kids aboard I'm usually dropping and stowing the main myself. The pack would make it much easier.
I'm on the fence about the Doyle Stack Pack (we have the Supersails Cradle Cover - same thing)
The new sail dropped like a rock after I lubed the mast track, but the sail still has to be closed up into the cover.
Bob Schuldenfrei has the Mack Stack Pack and there are several features that are better than the Cradle Cover.
.. The top zip has a continuous line so that it can be opened or closed from any point along the boom. That's so good that I'm going to implement it on our cover.
.. The Mack Pack leading edge has twist locks that secure it to the mast, the Cradle cover has a separate cover that wraps around the mast with a zip on each side. So I have to go forward to put that back in place after stowing the sail.
.. The Cradle cover lazy jacks: I just don't seem to be able to adjust them so that the bag lays right. I keep trying different line layouts, will probably get it right soon.
.. The lower edge of the cradle cover is closed along most of the boom length. We always have a pool of water that drains out when raising the sail after a rain. This weekend I raised the end of the boom with the topping lift higher than normal hoping that will prevent the rain collection.
Never seen any pros/cons about the Mack Stack Pack so cannot comment on that.
Paul
Thanks, I'll take a look a the Mack Stack also.
on your forward turning. did you just screw them into the hatch or did you somehow get a backing plate on them?
Sweet! Nice job.
Reminds me to remind all:
TRAVELER TRACKS should be rebedded as part of normal ROUTINE maintenance, like chainplates.
When I replaced our dorade vents over ten years ago, I wrote a Tech Note about it (August 2005). Part of the work was prompted by a leak below the port dorade. After replacing them both, the leak persisted. Rebedding the traveler track fixed it.
I just redid it last month with butyl tape. :D
Good question Brad. I'm adding a turning block forward this spring and I have the same question.
Paul,
How did you secure the loops for the forward turning blocks on your traveller. Were you able to add a a backing plate or did you just screw the loop into the spray hood (or the teak trim piece).
Yep, just screwed into the teak at the side of the cabin slider.
The tension on the line is really light even under heave weather loading.
I made the lines long enough that I can lay them over the pedestal guard and thus reach them for adjustment while at the helm.
Great mod.
Paul
Paul : Wait until you install a ridged boom vang and you'll get another WOW!!
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on April 12, 2017, 02:54:55 PM
Paul : Wait until you install a ridged boom vang and you'll get another WOW!!
A thought
Want to share the advantages of the ridged boom vang (and links)
Paul
ridged - those corrugated thingies that live somewhere on the boat, used to be used in cartons to hold that very necessary beer
rigid - great vangs with superior purchase compared to a four part soft vang, keeps the boom up and/or down, can eliminate the topping lift
I believe "Ruffles Have Ridges", too! 8)
Are there any issues with the turning blocks lying on the sheets?
I have just installed this upgrade and it looks like my block is going
To lay on my main and vang sheet.
Can you explain a bit more? Not sure what you are describing. Pics?
Sure
Take a look at this photo and the one of #9 from this thread.
Note that the block is lying across some lines.
This is the issue I am talking about
That is one way to do it but others have done it that way. Not my prefered lead. Mine has a block on the traveller stack to lead line back through dodger. Leads back to two spinnlock rotating cam cleats.
I think I will reroute my lines to match Noah's.
Thanks for offering another option.
Brad. Garhaeur will probably swap the parts for you, give them a call.
Quote from: Brad Young on June 17, 2017, 12:24:19 PM
Are there any issues with the turning blocks lying on the sheets?
I have just installed this upgrade and it looks like my block is going
To lay on my main and vang sheet.
I'm very happy with the way that the line passing from the turning block back into the cockpit, however, as I'm getting ready to give the Teak a bit of TLC, I'm also planning on adding a riser to the strap to which the blocks is attached. I'm probably just going to raise them using a 1/2" piece of Starboard.
Paul
Paul, no concerns that your blocks are just attached with wood screws to the teak?
They are just held with 2 screws right now (but when I add the backing plate/riser, that will change to 4 screws to hold the backing plate/riser down to the teak and two through bolts to hold the strap in place.)
The load on the traveller lines back to the cockpit is really light, perhaps as little as 5lbs, I'll see if I can measure it in various wind / sail conditions.
Paul
Quote from: britinusa on June 19, 2017, 11:15:50 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
The load on the traveler lines back to the cockpit is really light, perhaps as little as 5lbs, I'll see if I can measure it in various wind / sail conditions.
Paul, I share Noah's concern, and WADR you are completely wrong about the load on the traveler control lines. Consider a condition where you have to pull even a 6:1 purchase uphill with a full main sail. More, much more, than 5 pounds.
Ok I'll bite. Does "WADR" mean With All Due Respect?
Quote from: Jon W on June 19, 2017, 04:38:53 PM
Ok I'll bite. Does "WADR" mean With All Due Respect?
Affirmative.
Noah,
Where did you get the block that guides the traveler line to the spin lock? What is the name of that type of
block?
Thanks
Brad
It came that way from Garhauer. It is their "standard lead traveller aft through dodger set-up." LOL! I am sure they have a name for it. Just ask them to replace your current block stacks with that option. They are very accommodating.
Called a Halyard Lift Block.
http://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=29
Yeah you will need that too but here is what it is called and price. Dodger Conversion Block
https://www.garhauerstore.com/travelers/miscellaneous/dodger-conversion-block-dcb-1.html
A couple of comments on this thread...
- Last year I replaced the clutch for our traveler with Spinlock cam cleats (fixed, not rotating, due to their location forward). I love 'em: really easy to free and set the traveler. See the attached close-up. (Also, we have different colored rope for the sheet and traveler, making it easier to give directions to novices onboard.)
- With a prior boat we had a Mack Pack for furling the main, and it worked well. I haven't used Doyle's so can't compare the two, but the Mack Pack had all the features mentioned in Paul's earlier note. The continuous line can help with unzipping, but the zipper usually needs to be guided by hand when zipping it up.
Quote
https://www.garhauerstore.com/travelers/miscellaneous/dodger-conversion-block-dcb-1.html
BTW be aware that garhauerstore is not garhauer marine, it's a dealer.
kk
Yes, good point. I just gave that link as visual., as they have a "slightly" better website than Garhauer. I always buy direct from the factory. That is who he should call about returning the stack for one with the dodger config in place.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on April 12, 2017, 11:24:54 AM
Reminds me to remind all:
TRAVELER TRACKS should be rebedded as part of normal ROUTINE maintenance, like chainplates.
When I replaced our dorade vents over ten years ago, I wrote a Tech Note about it (August 2005). Part of the work was prompted by a leak below the port dorade. After replacing them both, the leak persisted. Rebedding the traveler track fixed it.
Yeah! I've been looking for that same leak source. Hadn't thought of the traveler track. Thanks, Stu.
Dan Cross
Ennui Went
1986 C34 #159
Any tips on bedding the traveler?
I'll be removing my original Nicro "X-track" traveler and replacing with a used Garhauer system this weekend. I'll be using butyl tape but am wondering how to go about sealing the large screws that mount into the glassed-in backing plate that require turning the screws from the topside.
I've been reviewing Main Sail's rebedding deck hardware article on his site. It makes total sense to tighten from below deck but what do you do when that's not an option?
Oh, and I'm also putting in the through bolts as listed in critical upgrades section while I'm at it. Those two bolts won't need to turn from the top as they will be tighten from below deck.
Russ
I'm not familiar with what you are specifically doing, but not only thru-fasteners, but "into-fasteners" should (ideally) also be epoxy sealed. Many owners don't if it's into solid core, but water will eventually attack polyester (think "blisters.")
Careful threading into both fiberglass and epoxy. Right-size the pilot holes, as stainless will snap clean off under too much stress. It ain't like threading into wood fibers that collapse and give as threads are cut,
For into-fasteners, I simply countersink after epoxying, and apply butyl SPARINGLY around the countersink. Same basic procedure as through fasteners.
ken
Quote from: KWKloeber on June 30, 2017, 11:28:05 AM
Russ
I'm not familiar with what you are specifically doing....
Our traveler tracks are bolted to the cabin top from the top of the traveler track with large screws into steel plates embedded into the vertical supports on the cabin-top. I plan on using the same screws to re-attach the new traveler track as well as add long bolts that go all the way through. Sealing the bottom of the track with the cabin-top is straightforward enough as is sealing the screw heads that go all the way through.
I'm wondering what others are doing to seal screw heads at the top of the traveler track that can only be tightened from above and thus require turning the screw head. It seems like it's pretty important to NOT turn the screw head to get the best results. Will I not get a good seal at those screw head locations? Is it not that big of a deal?
(http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4369.0;attach=857)
(http://m3.i.pbase.com/g3/84/622984/3/123303883.fPWg7Psw.jpg)
I think I just found my answer... had to read Main Sails article with a little more attention to detail... Plus, his new site has a few more tidbits of info on this particular article.
QuoteApply Backing Plates & Tighten
Step 7 – Install the backing plates, in this case I just used fender washers, and begin to tighten the fitting.
Please use suitable backing plates. These fender washers would not be the best choice in a stanchion or deck cleat as they are far to thin and a little on the small side, diameter wise, for a cored deck.
You will be best to have two people or a good way to keep the bolt from moving. Ideally you do not want the machine screw or bolt to spin, but if you absolutely have to, you can slightly soften the butyl with a q-tip and some mineral spirits and go for it. If the bolt does spin slightly, with butyl, this is not the end of the world and you will still likely get a water tight seal. If you can minimize both twisting that is great if not do your best to minimize it.
https://marinehowto.com/bed-it-tape/ (https://marinehowto.com/bed-it-tape/)
The "will still likely get a water tight seal" is what worries me a little.
I upgraded to the Garhaur traveler many years ago with the ball bearing movement. I need to replace the line now and I wonder is it 7/16 or half-inch and how many feet on each side?
Quote from: Navigaards on June 30, 2017, 01:15:46 PM
Quote from: KWKloeber on June 30, 2017, 11:28:05 AM
Russ
I'm not familiar with what you are specifically doing....
Our traveler tracks are bolted to the cabin top from the top of the traveler track with large screws into steel plates embedded into the vertical supports on the cabin-top.
The "will still likely get a water tight seal" is what worries me a little.
Are you talking screws or bolts or machine screws into the plates? I'm confused. How do you screw screws into steel plates? I took it that it went into fiberglass.
Are what you are using, countersunk (flat) heads? Roundheads? What's atop the riser/support (what is sealing against the fiberglass?) Not the screw head itself. A plate? A track?
5/16 and length depends on your lead. Measure your old one.
KEN-read this:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9460.0.html
I thought I posted this but I don't see it. How much line is required and what size diameter is the proper diameter. I purchased my Garhauer upgrade when they first came out with a ball bearing unit and the line is ready for the garbage can Also, is any particular line more slippery than another?
5/16 and length depends on how you lead to cleat, etc. measure yourbold line. Some folks think line with more stretch is better (such as climbing rope), as it works a a shock absorber in accidental gybe. Never tested it? I just use Sampson braid.
Quote from: Noah on June 30, 2017, 02:43:39 PM
KEN-read this:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9460.0.html
Wrong.
Spend my time to research what someone else is attempting to explain (with somewhat less than complete info as to what is sealing against what) to answer a question? I don't think so.
If you know, fill in the blanks,
s'il vous plait.
k
KEN:
All I was refering to was the photo and info explaining how the C34 traveller is built. There is a bronze threaded plate that the track screws bite into then go into empty air space on riser pedestal. The two end bolts should be 9-1/2 in through bolts fastened with acorn nuts on cabin ceiling. Butyl tape on heads with Tifgel on threads is good approach to assembling the works.
Noah
Ok, so there's no screws into fiberglass. Forget all I said about epoxy sealing "into-fasteners". It first sounded like "screws" were being cut into the fiberglass riser.
I have a similar issue to take care of on the J/120 traveler.
Is the bottom of the track flat, or is there a recess the length of it?
kk
Ken: If you go to that previous link I gave you there are pics.
Yes I know -- but I can't tell if the bottom of the track is "flat" or if there is a recess (above the plate that's pulled off the riser that's still attached to the track.)
i assume is is same as top with a small extruded groove, but I will look at my boat tomorrow where my 3 bullet fairleads bolt on underneath.
Noah
Ok, if there's just the "slight" groove (as on the top,) it's not an issue.
Here's what I would do IIWMT. Yah need a receptacle where the butyl gets pushed into, under force of tightening. It needs a shape that compresses the butyl against the surfaces past which water could leak.
Since Russ can't countersink the risers, he should countersink the holes on the bottom of the traveler bar. That creates a reservoir where under compression (tightening the bolts) butyl gets forced against the bolt, and against the top of and the holes into, the risers. A little will ooze out and seal under the traveler bar.
THEORETICALLY, sealing that way, there is no need to put butyl under the recessed flat head bolts. But, as belt/suspenders, IIWMT I would also want a similar good seal on the top of the traveler bar.
Russ is correct in his concern that the face of the flathead bolt will basically force "all" the butyl out, since the angle of the countersink and the angle of the bolt head are the same.
So, I would drill a slight (1/4" deep?) recess into the bottom of the countersink for each bolt head, so that under compression butyl wrapped under the bolt head will get forced down into the recess, and against the bar and against the threads. If the recess could be angled (a small diameter countersink) that's best, but simply a drill larger than the bolt hole will work as well. If they're 3/8 bolts, I'd use a 9/16 bit to make a recess for the butyl.
Exaggerated but, from the side it would look like this, with the "squared off" reservoir for the butyl being at the bottom of the countersink"
__ _________ _____
\\ bolt //
\\ head // traveler bar
|\ /|
|_| |_| <---- recess
| |
| |
kk
WADR, this is gettin' too complicated. I put two layers of butyl tape underneath both the length and the "ends" of the width inboard and outboard, did the Maine Sail bolt head "wrap" even on the ones I had to turn. That was a few months ago, been some rain since, no leaks. Just be careful how you apply the butyl, and forget the "theoretical" (but important) "issues." If you use enough butyl and understand that even if you have to turn the bolt heads a bit there WILL STILL BE butyl filling the slight gaps, especially if you push down hard before you turn anything. As I noted earlier this is part of regular maintenance. Even if it is once A DECADE!!! :D :clap :shock: 8) :D
:thumb:
Ken- FYI- I refreshed my memory and looked today at my traveller travk and the bottom of the track is absolutely NOT flat. It has an approx 1/2 in wide by 1/4 in groove/channel up the middle the entire length. Still should be able to bed the outsides where it meets the fiberglass riser/tower with butyl tape.
Noah
That shape seems to be somewhat typical. I bed the J/120 Genoa tracks (which had the same "groove") with a heavy butyl goop ring around each fastener. We wanted dirt/gunk behind each track to flush underneath, rather than get trapped (if thr tracks were sealed the whole length.)
The traveler is a different situation, being atop the funky embedded plates. However, IIWBT I would bed it with a 2x (3x if necessary) layer of butyl in the groove area only, rather than under the entire width of the track.
ken
Quote from: KWKloeber on July 02, 2017, 08:02:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The traveler is a different situation, being atop the funky embedded plates. However, IIWBT I would bed it with a 2x (3x if necessary) layer of butyl in the groove area only, rather than under the entire width of the track.
The track underneath is for the inserts for the fairleads. You can't see this from the side of the track outside because of the end cap.
I disagree about bedding this way. I see no reason for anything underneath to "breathe" and preferred to try to eliminate anything getting under the track at all if I could help it. I did the sides and the ends. Perhaps a four-layer of butyl in the track underneath would, might, could help. Dunno. I'll see if it leaks in five years. The hole for the dorade/cowl vent is right there, and as I reported earlier, that's where I first saw the leak in 2005. Hmm, that was quite some time ago... :D
Only reason I rebedded THIS time was because of another leak, traced finally down (up?!?) to the cowl vent, just the opposite of last time. And that traveler bed in 2005 was done with silicone, which was still holding. Butyl's simply better than silicone.
Your boat, your choice. :D
We're dancing on the head of a pin here, again. :shock:
Stu, to answer your email ... and et al, to clarify why/what I intended re: filling (ONLY) the "groove" portion of the track, see my sketches.
(A) The track and riser, in section view.
Excuse that they are NOT to scale NOR precise. I don't have the dimensions, except that Noah estimated the recess was about 1/4". The "rest is a guess."
(B) If one lays strips of butyl above the risers as shown.....
What happens when the track is bolted down and under compression?
(C) The butyl strips underneath the track edges act AGAINST you tightening down the track.
You don't want a gap there, you ideally want the track bolted down as tightly to the risers as you can get it. So the butyl tape there gets squeezed down (to 1/64" thick -- OR LESS) and out -- and it does not create a permanent, lasting seal.
Under the track proper, around the bolts, around the holes thru the top of the riser -- there's no butyl under compression. The 1/16" thick butyl tape doesn't begin to fill the 1/4" recess in the track. There's a huge gaposis.
(D) IDEALLY, create recesses for the butyl.
(YBYC, but IIWMT) I'd countersink each fastener hole in the bottom of the traveler bar. And SLIGHTLY countersink each hole into the fiberglass riser. (SLIGHTLY because you don't want to "open up" the embedded plates.)
Fill ONLY the RECESS (avoiding the edges of the track.) Use as many layers as necessary to SLIGHTLY overfill the depth. There's no need/point/benefit to put layers of butyl under the protruding edges of the track. So when the track is bolted down, what happens now?
(D) ALL the butyl under the track goes into compression.
It forces itself into the recessed (countersinks) you placed into the track and into the top of the riser. The butyl under compression makes a tight, more permanent seal, and butyl "plugs" are created around each fastener and hole. Whatever leftover butyl there is from SLIGHTLY overfilling the recess, squeezes out, but the rest remains under compression. What oozes out isn't necessary to make a seal, and NOT putting it there beforehand, eliminates a layer of goop that acts AGAINST you bolting down the track as tightly as you can to the riser.
Onto the top of the track.
(F) The bolt head countersinks in the top of the track (excuse the artistry.)
If you put butyl around the flathead bolt, "ALL" is squeezed out and there's nothing but a VERY VERY THIN FILM between the angled faces. No permanent and lasting seal is created.
(G) So create a recess for the butyl.
(YBYC but IIWMT) I'd drill out the bottom of each fastener countersink. Just enough to form maybe a 1/4" recess.
(H) Then what happens when you bolt down the track?
The butyl around and under each bolt head get compressed into the recess underneath the countersink. A thick, totally under-compression, butyl "plug" is formed around the bolt, which seals the hole much better.
So, is this overkill, or is it right-kill to create a permanent, leak-proof seal?
Your traveler, your decision! YTYD - Hey yet another acronym.
The short story is, that it matters not only WHAT you use at home to seal around a window or a door -- or on your boat -- but is also matters HOW you place the sealer to do it the best and longest lasting way -- whether it's Lifeseal, butyl tape, or Dow 795.
Will it "work" to simply lay the track into butyl? :donno: Ya, for a while. :think
Is it the right/best way to do it? Na, it's designed to fail. :nail
That's my story and ImStickinToit. :rolling
cheers,
ken
Makes sense to me. When it comes time to rebed, I will follow your suggestions. Thx!
Ken,
Was that something along the lines of YBYC*?
* "Your Bed Your Choice" ... Maybe better to not go there...
Your posts on bedding have been excellent. It's important for folks to understand that a paper-thin layer of bedding does very little good if there is any chance of even the slightest motion. Sealants rarely can handle thickness changes of over 50%. Given the thermal expansion/contraction over temperature extremes of sitting in direct sunlight and then cold nights, a paper-thin layer that gets squeezed to microscopic thickness when parts are expanded by heat, is unlikely to seal when things cool down. Modifying the interface to provide for a thicker layer of captive bedding is almost always a vast improvement.
Exactly!
I glad I'm glad you brought up the (for instance) 50% deal. I debated on that but nah, keep it simple.
k
Review of the load on the traveler lines.
Over the 4th weekend, we took the boat out twice. Day one was light. I asked one of my Buddy Crew to guess how much effort to pull the traveler uphill while the sails were lightly loaded in about 8knts.
Her response - About 8lb.
On the 2nd trip with winds in the high teens, Peggy did the same thing and guessed less than 10lbs - I figured even less.
The new (2016) traveler really is a great upgrade.
Paul