Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Jim Hardesty on September 01, 2015, 05:55:42 AM

Title: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Jim Hardesty on September 01, 2015, 05:55:42 AM
Just got my first estimate for dodger, bimini and connector replacement.  The canvas guy said a little over $6,000.  I've not used him before (or any other canvas maker) but he comes highly recommended by power boaters at out yacht club.  I'm getting another local quote but wanted to get an idea what others pay.
Is this price in line?   
Thanks,
Jim
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: patrice on September 01, 2015, 06:03:19 AM
Hi,

For sure it will cost you a fortune, it is for a boat    :D

But seriously, it is in the price range. 
When you get different quote, don't just compare price, but the type of material and it's gage ( thickness ) used by them.  This make a good price difference.
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Clay Greene on September 01, 2015, 06:17:46 AM
That seems like a lot to me.  We paid in the range of $4K for our similar canvas replacement but it was a couple of years ago.  For that price, I would make sure they are using fabric similar to Seamark (Sunbrella with an extra coating underneath for additional durability and water repellency), the upgraded thread and Makrolon for the windows (not Strataglass or similar clear vinyl, which does not last nearly as long). 

You can likely find a better deal by using one of the larger non-local canvas shops and sending them your existing dodger, bimini and connector.  I have a friend who did that and was very pleased both with the results and the cost savings.  You do run the risk that something will not fit quite right and then you have to send it back to be fixed. 
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 01, 2015, 07:04:47 AM
Whenever someone asks what something costs, I usually/always ask: "What is included?"

We need more info to even think about commenting about the validity of any price.

For example:  Does it include the ss tubing and, if so, what size & gauge?  We don't know if you're just doing the canvas, a rebuild, new glazing...

Please help us to help you.
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Jim Hardesty on September 01, 2015, 07:30:45 AM
Stu,
That was for only the canvas.  Sumbrella with Stratiglass the best thread, etc.  I'm happy with what I have, it's just 15 years old and showing it's age.  It looks like so many other dodger/bimini I wonder if it was a factory option.  Do you think a call to the factory would worth it?  Or would it not fit right?  This will be the first time for me buying canvas work.  Don't know much about  it.
Jim
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: mregan on September 01, 2015, 11:20:13 AM
Jim
For just canvas I would say that is a lot.  I bought a bimini, frame and all from Catalina Direct 2 yrs ago for about $1000.  Then had a new dodger made locally, ss tubing, strataglass, connector to the bimini.  I think it cost around $4000 and the guy I use is known for being high, but he does good work.
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Ron Hill on September 01, 2015, 03:05:38 PM
Jim : Now you know why I had a summer cover made to keep the dodger (and teak) out of the hot sun!!

I saw no sense in the UV eating up everything while the boat was parked!!   

A thought
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Clay Greene on September 02, 2015, 10:28:31 AM
Jim, if it was me, I would get competitive quotes from JSI in Florida and a competitor like the Canvas Store.  JSI may have done your canvas originally - Catalina outsourced a lot of their canvas work to them over the years.  You may even look to see if you have a JSI tag on your dodger.  A friend had his canvas replaced by the Canvas Store over the winter and they did a great job at two-thirds the cost of a local quote.  He mailed his original canvas to them and got the replacement back in a month.  Obviously, not a possibility if you also are replacing the tubing.  I had a winter cover made by the Canvas Store and they did a great job.

I would seriously consider upgrading from Strataglass to Makrolon or something similar.  We had a Strataglass window shatter after only three years of use when a sheet snapped against it in cold weather.  A local vendor told me that Strataglass gets very brittle with age.  It also is more prone to scratching than a competitive product like Makrolon. 
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Fuzzy on September 20, 2015, 07:53:08 AM
I was quoted a price of $5500 for a new dodger, bimini and complete enclosure by a local canvas guy.
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Fred Koehlmann on September 20, 2015, 09:33:18 AM
For a little more than that we had the dodger and Bimini replaced, with new frame, plus enclosure, two to years ago. For just canvass, even installed is pricey. IMHO
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: RV61 on September 21, 2015, 10:29:53 AM
We paid $4500 for new dodger ,connector, bimini and  zib in stern sunshade with all new framing and dodger hand holds 3 or 4 years ago.
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Jim Hardesty on September 21, 2015, 11:06:41 AM
Rick,
Who did the work?  I assume it was around Lake Erie.
Jim
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: RV61 on September 22, 2015, 06:18:47 AM
Jim,
Rick Ball out of Port Clinton did the work 937-478-4434. He did a great job however I had to wait almost a year for him to start as he was in high demand. I spoke to him the other day and he is doing more AC and frig work as it is better profit per hour. If you want to see his work our Boat is at Herls Harbor #619 on Catawba Port Clinton . Note my wife made the enclosure. 
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: mainesail on September 22, 2015, 07:56:26 AM
Unlike many things on a boat canvas work is an "arts" trade. Most canvas work is of absurdly low caliber and can severyly detract from the aesthetics of the vessel. Sad but true.

Canvas is also one of the ares where you as a buyer need to 150% do your home work and compare apples to apples. There are LOTS and LOTS of ways to cut corners on canvas work, and most will do that, unless you go in with a very, very specific specification. A good canvas job can easily last 12-18 years and a bad canvas job can be toast in 4-5 years...

Thread - Do not accept anything less than WL Gore Tenera. If your canvas guy balks at this you WALK. Tenara is not easy to work with and only the best canvas guys will be extremely proficient with it.

Tubing - Only heavy walled (.065" min) 316 SS tube should be used. Lots of shops will substitute crappy 304 thin wall. It makes it extremely difficult to atttain a proper fit and shape with thin walled tube.

Windows - Strataglass or equivalent at a bare minimum but preferably EZ2CY or Makrolon double sided abrasion resistant...

Fittings - 100% 316 SS. Double set screw types are preferred but most will source the cheaper single set screw product.

Zipper - While these don't sound glorious there are differences and many unscrupulous shops will use cheap non UV zippers in place of YKK UV or Lenzip UV resistant zippers.

Support Struts - These are very, very good options to go with. Front bow supports keep tension on the window and prevent creases, sagging etc. and also hold shape. A good shop will always use adjustable eye ends so proper tension can be maintained for the life of the product. Coaming struts come from the aft bow to the cockpit coaming and aft tension the dodger. Again these will use adjustable eye ends.

Snaps, Lift-A-Dots, Twist Locks or Luff Track - To get the optimal canvas shape the preferred method of attaching the dodger to the deck, on the cabin top, is to use luff track. This gives even tension across the entire window and prevents creases in the glass and canvas.

Zip Off Side Curtains - This type of dodger is often referred to as a "California" style. They allow open air access without needing to "fold" the canvas. Folding canvas is the absorlute worst thing you can do for it. A good design eliminates the need to fold. We have NEVER ONCE folded, or needed to remove, any of our custom made dodgers. A good canvas guy will make you a fleece lined storage back so teh window can remain flat, never rolled, and store under a berth cushion when not in use.

Fully articulating middle front window - A good canvas guy can make a middle window that folds 180 degrees and lays flat on-top of the dodger when open. Again no rolling & no potential for scratches. A budget shop will give you a roll up window...

Welded Grab Bar - Another nice feature is a welded grab rail across the aft bow. To take it up a notch baseball stitched leather covering... Expensive but also very time consuming to fabricate, weld and polish.

Suede or Stamoid Reinforcement points - In areas of high hand touching suede or Stamoid will be used.

Custom vs. Pattern - Hands down a custom made dodger, by a good canvas guy, will win every time but will also be more expensive. Why is custom so expensive?

   Trip #1 - Meet with owner and discuss needs and use and make suggestions and offer options and pros and cons. Take initial measurements then head back to shop to manufacturer, bend and crown the frame. A good guy will match the crown and cabin rake of your your boats profiles. A hack will use what ever radius he likes to use.

   Trip#2 - Show up with frame and mount frame. Pattern for canvas. If too windy this requires another trip.

   Trip #3 - Return to vessel with dodger, & bimini, if so ordered, and install. If fit is not absolutely perfect it goes back to the shop for some tweaking.

   Trip #4 - Install canvas and fit dodger and bimini to perfection. A good bimini or dodger will NOT use straps to hold it up or tension it. A low budget job uses straps. Floppy loose fitting canvas wears and degrades faster!! Pattern for connector and side curtains, if so ordered. This step CAN NOT be done with any level of quality until the bimini and dodger have been fitted, tensioned and installed.

   Trip #5 - GO back to shop and manufacture the connector and side curtains and or enclosure.

   Trip #6 - Go back to boat and install, fit and tension connector and side curtains or enclosure.



A quality job, by a canvas artist, for a bimini, connector and dodger will consume in the neighborhood of 80+ man hours not including travel time. Quality materials are also not inexpensive....


Rant:

Our 2005 Catalina 310 had JSI factory canvas and, IMHO, it was a complete budget level substandard product.. It cost me $1400.00 in modifications (brand new boat mind you) to get it to a somewhat presentable quality and this included many hours of physical thread removal and re-stitching adding support struts etc. and even then the thread, windows and overall quality were barely up to budget level..... Rant off....

If you want to see some quality canvas work:

 Iversons (http://www.iversonsdesign.com/index.html)

Mobile Marine Canvas  (http://www.mobilecanvas.com/default.aspx)

With proper care a good quality product will LAST..

These are our windows as of this June at year 7..
(http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/150883321.jpg)






Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Jim Hardesty on September 22, 2015, 08:51:08 AM
Mainesail,
Thanks for the canvas tutorial.  Very much appreciated.  Still have a couple of questions.

My existing canvas goes around the bows and to a zipper.  No snaps into the stainless tubing. The canvas guys want to use snaps into the bows.  To me this doesn't feel to be the best way.  Is one way better than the other?

Do I understand you correctly that your front center window folds up over and stays on the top of the dodger? 

I thought canvas replacement would be an simple job.  One of the few things I don't want to do myself.  Boy was I wrong  :shock: need to learn so much.  

Jim

Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: KWKloeber on September 22, 2015, 09:27:25 AM

Do I understand you correctly that your front center window folds up over and stays on the top of the dodger? 

I thought canvas replacement would be an simple job.  One of the few things I don't want to do myself.  Boy was I wrong  :shock: need to learn so much.  

Jim


Jim,

Also talk to your maker about a removable front window (if you're doing a one-piece.)  My guy did that for me on the c30.

You basically need to be a self educated expert on canvas jobs before you hire anyone (who may not know what they're doing.)

I disagree with MainSail -- I find that, unfortunately,  you need to do that on EVERYTHING  :cry: you have someone do on the boat -- until you get to know your tradespeople and they prove that they deserve your trust and will do it correctly and to your liking.   You'll know who is good and who isn't -- when you realize the tradesperson is asking the right questions of you up front.  Never assume that the question wasn't asked because they already know the answer and have done it (correctly) before.  Play dumb -- a good tradesperson has a passion and loves to educate their customer and demonstrate that they know what they're doing.

kk
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: mainesail on September 23, 2015, 03:36:30 AM
Mainesail,
Thanks for the canvas tutorial.  Very much appreciated.  Still have a couple of questions.

My existing canvas goes around the bows and to a zipper.  No snaps into the stainless tubing. The canvas guys want to use snaps into the bows.  To me this doesn't feel to be the best way.  Is one way better than the other?

Do I understand you correctly that your front center window folds up over and stays on the top of the dodger? 

I thought canvas replacement would be an simple job.  One of the few things I don't want to do myself.  Boy was I wrong  :shock: need to learn so much.  

Jim



Snaps into the tubing?? It is pretty rare when I see that on a dodger and usually when I do it is a Band-Aid for a poor quality fit..

My front center window will fold under or over but I prefer over the top. I did have one on a previous boat that zipped out entirely too. The bottom line is that rolling or folding ruins canvas and especially destroys windows. On the Maine coast, with all the lobster pots, I consider our windows are a safety item so good visibility and no scratches are of paramount design consideration..
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: patrice on September 24, 2015, 06:02:22 AM
Mainesail,



Snaps into the tubing?? It is pretty rare when I see that on a dodger and usually when I do it is a Band-Aid for a poor quality fit..

My front center window will fold under or over but I prefer over the top. I did have one on a previous boat that zipped out entirely too. The bottom line is that rolling or folding ruins canvas and especially destroys windows. On the Maine coast, with all the lobster pots, I consider our windows are a safety item so good visibility and no scratches are of paramount design consideration..

Hi

I do have snaps  on my dodger frame.  And not a band aid    :shock:   :D
The front section is in 3 pieces, side windows are fix and the center section can be rolled up.  And the 2 sides of the dodger can be completelly removed.  They have zippers on top and front side, and the snap is on the end of the zipper at the top.
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Mick Laver on September 24, 2015, 09:05:52 PM
Jim,
Unfortunately the quoted price doesn't seem too off base, assuming high quality components. We did a dodger last Spring with Seamark and Makralon windows, YYK zippers etc. Pretty much as Mainesail described. We had an existing frame, but since we wanted to raise the dodger about 6 inches we wound up extending one of the bows and rebuilding the other bow from scratch, as well as adding quick-release deck fittings. And since the height was different we needed a new dodger-bimini connector, and since we'd made other pieces that attached to the old dodger these had to be modified. And on and on ... you know how it goes. By the time we were done the job was around $4.5K. I've worked with a canvas guy in our area for about 12 years. He does good work but he's slow, and he keeps his cost down by working out of his house. I imagine if I'd had the job done by one the local shops it would have been a lot more.
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Steve_in_lex on September 28, 2015, 10:17:52 AM
On a related topic, is there any kind of protective application that prolongs the life of the dodger fabric?  I see some on the market…has anyone used these?  I think my fabric is Sunbrella.

Thanks,

Steve
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 28, 2015, 12:06:41 PM
IIRC, the only recommendation is 3M  303
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Jim Hardesty on September 28, 2015, 12:43:44 PM
I again agree with Stu, 303 works great.  Would have replaced my canvas a couple of years ago.  After a treatment with 303 the canvas looks much newer.  More water proof too.
Jim
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: KWKloeber on September 28, 2015, 07:12:01 PM
For background, I just posted some good information I had from 303 on the wiki.....

http://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cockpit#Items_of_Interest

(Look down under "Items of Interest")

Stu feel free to move to somewhere else (if appropriate.)

Cheers,
Ken
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Steve_in_lex on September 30, 2015, 05:31:40 AM
Thanks all - great info.

Steve
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Ken Juul on September 30, 2015, 08:01:18 AM
There is another brand, Aerospace or something like that at West Marine that works well also.  In either case you want to brush it on, using the spray bottle is not that effective.  It will also damage plastic windows so careful around them.
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: KWKloeber on September 30, 2015, 12:16:57 PM
There is another brand, Aerospace or something like that at West Marine that works well also.  In either case you want to brush it on, using the spray bottle is not that effective.  It will also damage plastic windows so careful around them.

Ken = Aerospace is what we're discussing -- 303 Aerospace fabric guard.  If a couple want to go together on it, you can get an excellet price on a case from Autogeek.com.

YB, YC -- but I'm telling you I spent a lot of time with the techies at 303, and brushing is NOT recommended -- it is detrimental to the effectiveness of the waterproofing process ---  you do not want to saturate the fabric, only spritz the top layer of the fabric strands.   
But  YB, YC.

k
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: David Sanner on October 02, 2015, 12:02:07 AM

Great thread...

My dodger has three snap on panels that protect the isinglass.  They are a bit of a pain to snap on and don't keep the water from running under them and onto the isinglass which along with age has clouded it over the years.

On my next dodger (which is needed)  I was thinking of opting for a full single cover.  It might cost a little more up front but when it needs replacing in 10+ my dodger should still look like new.
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: mainesail on October 02, 2015, 04:53:13 AM
There is another brand, Aerospace or something like that at West Marine that works well also.  In either case you want to brush it on, using the spray bottle is not that effective.  It will also damage plastic windows so careful around them.

Ken = Aerospace is what we're discussing -- 303 Aerospace fabric guard.  If a couple want to go together on it, you can get an excellet price on a case from Autogeek.com.

YB, YC -- but I'm telling you I spent a lot of time with the techies at 303, and brushing is NOT recommended -- it is detrimental to the effectiveness of the waterproofing process ---  you do not want to saturate the fabric, only spritz the top layer of the fabric strands.   
But  YB, YC.

k

303 Aerospace is NOT 303 Fabric Guard. Please DO NOT confuse the two...

I use a small 1/2 gallon garden pump sprayer from Tractor Supply. It gives a beautiful even finish. Lightly mist, let dry & repeat. If you get any on the glass get it off immediately For the glass all I will use is IMAR Strataglass Protective Cleaner....

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/groundwork-pump-sprayer-1-2-gal?cm_vc=-10005 (http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/groundwork-pump-sprayer-1-2-gal?cm_vc=-10005)


This is 303 Fabric Guard (green label) for use on Sunbrella:
(http://www.goldeagle.com/sites/default/files/styles/product_detail_main/public/303-Products-Fabric-Guard.png?itok=lNID21xf)

This is 303 Aerospace Protectant (blue label) NOT for use on Sunbrella:
(http://www.goldeagle.com/sites/default/files/styles/product_detail_main/public/303-Products-Aerospace-Protectant_0.png?itok=kg4SN2zS)
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Roc on October 02, 2015, 06:39:15 AM
What's a good way to protect the windows from overspray?  I'm concerned with using painter's tape because the liquid will find it's way underneath and attack the windows.
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: mainesail on October 02, 2015, 12:17:22 PM
I hold the spray gun in one hand a apiece of card board in the other. The card board blocks the overspray... If any does get on it a brand new microfiber rag and IMAR Strataglass Protective Cleaner and I keep going.....
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: KWKloeber on October 02, 2015, 12:22:28 PM

303 Aerospace is NOT 303 Fabric Guard. Please DO NOT confuse the two... '[


MEA CULPA!!

Just to close the loop on this "precisely"  -- I mistakenly said both 303s were labelled "Aerospace".  Not so - I usually check mfgrs' website for such things, but this time went from memory (CRS).  As RC said there's

* 303 High Tech Fabric Guard
* 303 Aerospace Protectant (kinda like ArmorAll, but containing with lots of UV shield.)  I've used it after waxing and it does impart a nice shine and add additional UV protection on just about anything (NOT canvas though.)

kk
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Roc on March 10, 2016, 05:13:10 PM
Does the Tractor Supply sprayer shoot a fan spray or a round (conical) spray.  Asking because I have a piston sprayer (Ortho brand) that shoots a conical spray and wondering if a fan spray may be easier to do this job because you can sweep the canvas with the fan shape.
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: rmbrown on August 14, 2017, 08:08:25 AM
I'm having some screen panels made and need to choose between snaps and twist locks.  Canvas guy says twist locks are better but more trouble (money) and leans toward snaps.  Opinions welcome!

Whichever is selected, what's the proper way to attach them to the fiberglass to prevent leaking or damage downstream.  (In a previous life, someone installed snap bases in a very substandard way so I want to make sure it's done right this time.
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Ron Hill on August 14, 2017, 01:01:08 PM
Mike : I don't know where you are mounting these screens? 
What You need to decide is if the twist lock is going to protrude - be in the way and possibly be broken?

Your choice - A thought
 
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Mick Laver on August 14, 2017, 02:56:40 PM
Mike - When I redid my dodger a couple of years back I told my canvas guy to get rid of any and all snaps and replace them with the twist aka "common sense" fasteners. I have not regretted that decision. I always found snap fasteners a pain to re-fasten, especially if the canvas has been under even slight tension. This even with periodic lubrication.

If you do go with CS fasteners I'd ask your guy (gal?) about the double-height ones. These provide some flexibility later on if you decide to add additional pieces such as a temporary sunscreen. I never have had an issue with the addition height of CS fasteners over snaps.

I'm curious about the installation problem. I would drill out the hole for the screw, counter-sink it, and thread the fastener in slowly after applying some sealant to the threads. Twist in a turn, back off a half turn, then repeat until it's flush.
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: rmbrown on August 14, 2017, 03:01:04 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: britinusa on August 15, 2017, 05:28:10 AM
If the snap/twistlock is going to be mounted on fiberglass, then consider Snads from http://www.sailrite.com/search?keywords=snads (http://www.sailrite.com/search?keywords=snads)

Paul
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: KWKloeber on August 16, 2017, 09:22:27 PM
Mike

Where are the panels going to be mounted against?  That would make a difference between CS and snap fasteners.  There's other options, for instance Lift-the-dot -- all have pluses and minuses..

When you say correct way to mount.... explain.  To watertite the fasterner hole?  or what?

Long ago a canvas guy screwed snaps into nothing but a thin outer gel/fglass shell that sits about 1/2" outside the actual f'glass substrate on a portion of my cockpit coming.  There's nothing the screws were cutting into, except the 1/4? inch "shell."  Naturally, eventually the tapping screws loosened/stripped/pulled out.  If that's your situation I have a good fix, but won't go on and on about it unless that's your situation.

To waterproof them, defo countersinking and sealant (run out a small diameter string of butyl and wrap around the screw shaft under the snap head.)  Or some have put an o-ring under the head.

ken
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Ron Hill on August 17, 2017, 02:12:25 PM
Guys : If you are going into fiberglass you can also use the "Push -the-dot" fasteners.

A thought
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: bayates on August 17, 2017, 09:14:07 PM
Jim,

$6K for dodger, Bimini and connector is not bad. We just had the dodger with cover done last year and it was almost $3500 with maktolon glass which is awesome. Our Bimini is 5 plus years old and was $3k plus but is larger than normal and taller. The connector a couple hundred. You definitely want sunbrella fabrics. We had a large window installed in Bimini to see the sail trim.

Brian
Hakuna Matata
2000 c34 MKII
San Diego
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: Noah on August 18, 2017, 10:30:24 AM
Brian-
Who did your canvas work?
Title: Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
Post by: bayates on August 19, 2017, 08:02:54 AM
Noah, 

Jan Mitchell Canvas. He does great work. Has done work on Other C34 in San Diego as well. Not always the fastest but great work and very fussy and stands behind it if there is an issue. Will be at the boat next weekend if you want to check out the work.

Brian