Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: BlueWind on August 09, 2010, 03:23:06 PM

Title: Calder battery sizing & stereo-battery connection
Post by: BlueWind on August 09, 2010, 03:23:06 PM
I'm stalling a stereo. I'm not an electrician. Do I need one to make the connections to the house batteries? Can anyone provide specifics? I realize it will drain some from the batteries to maintain the memory, etc. I assume my charger will handle that during my absences -- three weeks at a time. Thanks!
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Exodus on August 09, 2010, 04:10:46 PM
you should probably wire it to the switch panel.  On a typical car stereo there is constant power and switched power.  The constant power will maintain your memory presets and other settings.  If you don't mind the default settings just wire both + wires to the switched power and you won't have to worry about the drain on your battery when the stereo is not being used.  This is how I have my stereo wired.  The only drawback is having to find stations again after it has been turned off.
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Ron Hill on August 09, 2010, 05:36:27 PM
Carl : You can wire it direct to the battery/s.  Usually the stereos come with an in-line fuse.  If not - install one!!
I put a ON/OFF switch in-line on the positive wire.  That way NOTHING is drained from the battery/s while I'm gone.   A thought   :wink:
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: BlueWind on August 09, 2010, 05:59:28 PM
Thanks for the ideas. The stereo does have a in-line fuse. I like the on-off switch idea. Appreciate the help.
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Stu Jackson on August 09, 2010, 06:02:15 PM
I have mine wired to the Stereo switch on the panel, with the memory wired directly to the house battery.  Just like a car, and I never have power "issues."

C'mon, think about it.  Your car battery is all of maybe 60 ah, and sometimes we go away on vacation for two weeks or more and don't use our car.  Have you ever had a car that wouldn't restart after a vacation?

Our boat batteries, even the tiniest house bank I've heard about here in 12 years, is twice the size of a car battery.  They ain't goin' anywhere and will power your radio memory just fine without killing your house bank.

I just hate having to reset the preset, which is an oxymoron.  :D It's like having all the benefits of a rental car radio: none! :shock:
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Michael Shaner on August 11, 2010, 05:10:50 PM
QuoteI just hate having to reset the preset, which is an oxymoron.

Nice! Couldn't agree more...but being amp fastidious, (hey, I just did a bottom up electrical upgrade?! Gotta keep it new!!) I've been pulling the fuse while in pursuit of the "perfect" switch to disconnect that memory wire drain while I'm away...can't seem to locate one I fancy...
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Ron Hill on August 11, 2010, 05:53:31 PM
Stu : You live in a Hi -Tech/Densely populated area.
 
I keep my boat on Virginia's Northen Neck.  It is commonly call "The Promised Land" - because they will promise you anything and never show up!   It's also referred to as "A Digital Wasteland".  The selections on the "dial" are somewhat limited - to say the least!!  I only have 1 station I enjoy listening to.
That's why I don't never use or need presets !!   It's not the amps so much, as the lack of stations !!  So why wastes even the milliamp?? - save them for the bilge pump - if ever needed!

I use a simple slide switch (on the + wire) that I can change with out even looking at it - ON is forward and OFF is back!!

Michael : If you wire the stereo power (+) into the main electrical panel (nav station), when you turn OFF the batteries the memory will also be shut off! 
 
A few thought   :cry4`
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Stu Jackson on August 11, 2010, 06:02:27 PM
I hear ya, Ron.  We do get those density induced multiple radio stations.  AM, FM, and now with iPods, and the cassette deck AND the 10 disc CD changer I installed on board, I get too much to deal with! :D  

Baseball games - two teams here Giants and A's, Click 'n Clack Talk Cars on PBS, local news and weather on AM, Rush Limbaugh and Rachael Maddow competing with each other, I NEED my presets to keep up with all that jazz (91.1 FM, by the way!!!). :D

Michael, a simple toggle switch somewhere in the memory wire line, taped up with a wire tie, would do for ya.  ACE Hardware is a best buy rather than West Marine.  Easier than the fuse, and you could put it right next to it, too.
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: DarthOccam on November 23, 2010, 06:36:56 AM
I'm troubleshooting a problem with the stereo on our 2005.  There's a Sony car CD/receiver installed, but it's only powered up twice in the couple of months we've had the boat.  Like most car stereos, it's designed to have the constant power to maintain memory settings, and turning off the "stereo" breaker on the panel shuts off all power.  I've tried reseting it, but it doesn't power up.  I've verified with a multimeter that the power cables to the unit are hot.  My working theories are:  1)  it's just broke or 2) the constant loss of power was something it was not designed for.

My question to the group is:  has anyone else had problems with a stereo failing due to the power cycling?  

I keep the boat in a slip with a charger, so I'm thinking of taking Ron's advice and wiring the constant lead to unswitched power and putting my own in-line switch in for those rare situations when I want it totally shut off.
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Exodus on November 23, 2010, 07:12:09 AM
If your stereo has a removable face plate check to make sure it is on properly.  Hopefully could be the only issue.
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Stu Jackson on November 23, 2010, 08:33:51 AM
Have you tried the unit's "reset" button?
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: DarthOccam on November 23, 2010, 09:40:52 AM
Good suggestions, but I've verified that the removable faceplate is installed correctly, the contacts are clean, and I've pushed the reset button many, many, many times.  I pulled the unit out and traced the wiring, and verified that I have voltage on both power leads into the unit.  I even broke down and read the manual--a testimony to my state of dispair.

I've pretty much resigned myself to replacing it, but wanted to see if the failure mode is common.
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Joe Kern on November 23, 2010, 10:00:10 AM
Sounds like the same unit that came with my 2005.  Mine failed after about 3 years.  The contacts went bad and no matter how or what I cleaned them with most of the buttons and functions were all messed up.   Since it was plug an play I went with another Sony.  Prettty cheap supposedly marine grade.  Fit in the same hole, used the same wiring harness etc. so just was easier.   Been working fine the last 3 years or so.
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Ken Juul on November 23, 2010, 10:22:01 AM
Michael,
Why don't you just wire both hots leads to the stereo switch.  Come down to the boat, battery on, stereo on, set your presets.  Turn the radio off and on at the head unit leaving the stereo switch on.  When you leave the boat the both the Battery switch and the stereo switch will kill the memory power.
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: DarthOccam on February 02, 2012, 05:42:19 PM
I realized I never posted the outcome of my stereo woes. I decided the Sony unit was faulty and replaced it with a new unit.  As a bonus, I got one that also plays DVDs, and was able to remove the stand-alone DVD player the PO had installed. 

When I traced the "memory" power lead as part of the installation, I found that it was run to the switched pole of the power distribution 1/2/both switch (which sort of defeats the point).  I reinstalled it on the non-switched pole.  I'm not too worried about the current draw.  So far, the until has worked perfectly.

Michael
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Ralph Masters on February 02, 2012, 09:04:00 PM
Radio, on the boat, Rush, NPR, resetting pre-sets.  The admiral tells me all I need to know out on the water.  And I don't have to worry about battery drain, it ain't drained yet..................

Ralph
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: mainesail on February 03, 2012, 02:49:59 PM
With many stereos it is not just station AM/FM pre-sets. EQ settings, aux input settings (on/off, rear/front), balance, fader, face lighting settings etc. etc. can all be affected by not keeping memory power to the unit.

Some brands are worse than others in this regard. With our Kenwood Excelon if we lose battery power we need to go into the full "initial set up menu" and re-do everything. The iPod or TV audio won't work until this step is complete. This set up takes a couple of minutes. We also lose all adjustment settings including any custom EQ settings we've created to dial the sound in just so..

Our unit draws .002A for the memory....
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Indian Falls on February 04, 2012, 09:02:51 AM
A friend and fellow sailor is installing a dedicated automotive battery with it's own solar charger just for "Boat Entertainment systems"  I thought it was an awesome idea.  No worrying that the stereo and other related accessories (disco ball?) will run your house batts down or your engine start battery down.  The solar keeps this lone system on line and ready all the time.  So with that, there go your "fancy schmancy radio" preset problems!
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Stu Jackson on February 04, 2012, 06:03:36 PM
From a purely boaty electrical engineering perspective, "dedicated" batteries make little or no sense.  The largest house bank, heck even the smallest one if you only have one house battery, is more than enough to handle a stereo memory.  If he's "afraid" his stereo memory will kill either his house bank or his reserve bank, think about what it'll do to an even smaller dedicated stereo battery.  Sheesh... :D  Yes, I know, so his dedicated battery goes dead, too, so all he loses his his memory.  His memory?  Sorry, his stereo's memory. :cry4`  Carrying all the extra lead around, he could use it for his house bank.
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Indian Falls on February 05, 2012, 10:09:43 AM
Sorry Stu, sounds like you missed  the whole idea.

It's not about the radio memory at all. 

If I'm at the marina with my truck stereo on, it takes the battery so low in 3 hours I can't start my truck. 

If you kill the entertainment battery, you still have an untouched house bank for lights, auto-helm, starting, bilge pumps, whatever.  Secondly, if it takes 5 hours to kill the entertainment battery, it's time for a little piece and quiet anyway!

I like the idea because I don't have a dedicated starting battery or a giant golf cart bank and my 1st mate would love to have a very nice music system on board, the kind that could cause me to worry about how long it'd been on...  sailing is about relaxing and slowing down and I don't want another thing to worry me or at the least bother me to have to keep checking the charge on the house bank, "it's getting low!  lets ruin the mood by starting the diesel for a half hour!"

Many of us out there have a dedicated battery already.  They've just chosen to use it for something else.


Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Exodus on February 05, 2012, 01:35:17 PM
The PO of my boat installed a dedicated battery for the refrigeration.  I may change that when I get around to overhauling my DC system.  So far though it seems to be an okay set up for day sailing and gunkholing on weekends.  Maybe I should run my radio to that battery when I do the overhaul...
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: mainesail on February 06, 2012, 12:07:17 PM


The stereo memory on our boat draws 0.002A or .048Ah per day, or 0.336Ah per week. It takes a full THREE WEEKS to use just 1Ah.

Considering most C34's have a house bank exceeding 200Ah's you'd be using just 0.168% of a 200 Ah bank per week. How many of us go longer than a week between uses or charging??

Even at three weeks, of no use & no charging, though one might question why you own a boat with that much vacancy of use, you use just 0.5% of your Ah capacity of a 200Ah bank for the stereo memory..

I have seen them as high as 0.007A but that is a pretty high one..
Title: Calder Battery Sizing
Post by: Stu Jackson on February 06, 2012, 06:24:16 PM
Quote from: Exodus on February 05, 2012, 01:35:17 PM
The PO of my boat installed a dedicated battery for the refrigeration.  I may change that when I get around to overhauling my DC system.  So far though it seems to be an okay set up for day sailing and gunkholing on weekends.  Maybe I should run my radio to that battery when I do the overhaul...

Exodus, that actually should be done now.  Why not simply wire your "dedicated" fridge battery with the rest of the house bank, and you'll find your batteries, all of them, will simply last longer.  That's another good reason to avoid "dedicated" batteries, 'cuz for the same amount of lead you're dragging around they'll simply last longer.

Here's why (grouping batteries is better)

IS IT BETTER TO HAVE ONE OR TWO BATTERY BANKS FOR HOUSE USE?
(By Nigel Calder - I DIDN'T write this!!!)

The popular arrangement of having two house banks alternated in use needs scrutiny before I go any further.

LIFE CYCLES: As we have seen, the life expectancy of a battery in cycling service is directly related to the depth to which it is discharged at each cycle - the greater the depth of discharge, the shorter the battery's life.

This relationship between depth of discharge and battery life is NOT linear.  As the depth of discharge increases, a battery's life expectancy is disproportionately shortened.  A given battery may cycle through 10% of its capacity 2,000 times, 50% of its capacity 300 times and 100% of its capacity around 100 times.

Let's say, for arguments sake, that a boat has two 200-ah battery banks, alternated from day to day, with a daily load of 80 Ah. [Note from Stu:  this is a pretty usual daily load.]   Each bank will be discharged by 40% (80 Ah of one of the two 200 Ah banks) of its capacity before being recharged.  The batteries will fail after 380 cycles, which is 760 days (since each is used every other day).  If the two banks had been wired in parallel, to make a single 400 Ah battery bank, this bank would have been discharged by 20% of capacity every day, with a life expectancy of 800 days, a 5% increase in life expectancy using exactly the same batteries!

But now let's double the capacity of the batteries, so that the boat has either two 400 Ah banks, or a single 800 Ah bank, but with the same 80 Ah daily load.  The two separate banks will be cycling through 20% of capacity every other day, resulting in a total life expectancy of 1,600 days.  Doubling the size of the battery banks in relation to the load has produced a 210% increase in life expectancy. The single 800 Ah bank will be cycling through 10% of capacity every day, resulting in a life expectancy of 2,000 days - a 25% increase in life expectancy over the two (400 Ah) banks, and a 250% increase in life expectancy over the single 400 Ah battery bank!

There are two immediate conclusions to be drawn from these figures:

1.  For a given total battery capacity, wiring the (house) batteries into a single high capacity bank, rather than having them divided into two alternating banks, will result in a longer overall life expectancy for the batteries.

2.  All other things being equal, any increase in the overall capacity of a battery bank will produce a disproportionate increase in its life expectancy (through reducing the depth of discharge at each cycle).

FOR BATTERY LONGEVITY, A SINGLE LARGE (HOUSE) BANK, THE LARGER THE BETTER, IS PREFERABLE TO DIVIDED (HOUSE) BANKS.
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Stu Jackson on February 06, 2012, 06:26:12 PM
Quote from: mainesail on February 06, 2012, 12:07:17 PM


The stereo memory on our boat draws 0.002A or .048Ah per day, or 0.336Ah per week. It takes a full THREE WEEKS to use just 1Ah.

Considering most C34's have a house bank exceeding 200Ah's you'd be using just 0.168% of a 200 Ah bank per week. How many of us go longer than a week between uses or charging??

Even at three weeks, of no use & no charging, though one might question why you own a boat with that much vacancy of use, you use just 0.5% of your Ah capacity of a 200Ah bank for the stereo memory..

I have seen them as high as 0.007A but that is a pretty high one..

Thanks, Maine Sail.Some folks may benefit from the "math."  Some will choose to ignore it. Darn. :D
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Indian Falls on February 06, 2012, 07:04:10 PM
Memory drain on any battery is like draining lake Ontario with a straw. 

Why has no one done the "math" on a 100w watt stereo, cd/player in operation?
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Stu Jackson on February 06, 2012, 07:34:34 PM
Dan, if you have, we'd be interested.

Our Sony maybe 50W system with four speakers and apowered subwoofer pulls out all of 2 amps when running.

This includes the powered subwoofer!!!

The bigger the load, all the more reason to have a larger, non-dedicated house bank to power it.

Your boat, your truck, your choice. :D :D :D
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: scotty on February 06, 2012, 07:44:13 PM
So, if I understand it correctly, bigger bank, less discharge, longer life.  Right?  Then, if I keep my battery switch on "both", I'm running off both banks, which should get me that advantage?  Is that correct?  Thanks.
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Stu Jackson on February 06, 2012, 07:55:47 PM
Quote from: scotty on February 06, 2012, 07:44:13 PM
So, if I understand it correctly, bigger bank, less discharge, longer life.  Right?  Then, if I keep my battery switch on "both", I'm running off both banks, which should get me that advantage?  Is that correct?  Thanks.

Nope.  The Calder discussion was originally to provide the explanation of why it was better to have a larger house bank and a small reserve bank than it was to have two separate, but equal, house banks.  It was written in the early 90s, when two separate equal house banks were still the norm in many boats.  It was copied and posted 'cuz the concept applies to "dedicated" batteries as well.

What seems to work best is a large-as-you-can-make-it house bank with a small reserve bank.

Using B on the switch should essentially never happen, because you want to hold the reserve bank in, uhm, well, reserve.  Only reason we see for using B is for when your echo charger breaks and you want to charge your reserve bank, and should ONLY be used when charging.  All the rest of the time, use the house bank.
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: scotty on February 06, 2012, 09:04:21 PM
Thanks for the answer, Stu.  Luckily there is a wiring diagram for my boat made when some re-wiring work was done.  I'll get it out (I'll make a copy and keep it at home) and look at what I've got - and check it with the actual wires.  I've spent a bit more time on the electricity 101 wiki, but I'll have to think a while before I can figure out how the Calder discussion applies to me.  When I have a sense of what's going on (and believe me, I'll need some help!) I'll start a new thread so that I don't hijack this one.  I know that I have two banks of house batteries (each of which has two 6 volt batteries in series), and one (12 volt) dedicated starter battery.  Any suggestions where to start looking?  Thanks,  Scotty
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Stu Jackson on February 07, 2012, 04:12:01 AM
Quote from: scotty on February 06, 2012, 09:04:21 PM
Thanks for the answer, Stu.  ... I know that I have two banks of house batteries (each of which has two 6 volt batteries in series), and one (12 volt) dedicated starter battery.  Any suggestions where to start looking? 

Scotty, you're welcome.  Where to start would be to post your wiring diagram and also, for starters, tell us how many switches you have.  From what you've said, you could either have two equal house banks and a separate reserve bank OR one large house bank and a separate reserve bank.  It could well be that the PO had two separate house banks of (2) 6V banks, and then added the separate reserve.  It will be fun helping you to figure out what you have.  Let's give it a go.
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: mainesail on February 07, 2012, 09:54:48 AM
Quote from: Indian Falls on February 06, 2012, 07:04:10 PM
Memory drain on any battery is like draining lake Ontario with a straw.  

Why has no one done the "math" on a 100w watt stereo, cd/player in operation?

Cause there's no such thing as a "100 Watt" 12V CD/player on a boat. :D If using a car or "marine" unit the best you can hope for is about 4-6 REAL watts... The rest are bold face lies to get you top open your wallet...

The only way to approach 100 watts is to add an amp. The amp in my wife's car (JL Audio) draws more in stand-by then our stereo does at a normal volume..

Driving two channels though a "white noise" CD, the only way to accurately measure output, you use about 4.5 - 4.8A to get to 100 - 101 dB or so.. Speakers and their efficiency can play a roll. 101 dB is LOUD... Most often our stereo is drawing well under 1.4A driving all 4 channels at an easy to listen to volume.....
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Indian Falls on February 07, 2012, 06:59:26 PM
I must respectfully disagree with the last post.

Pyle makes 100 watt marine speakers and a 400 watt waterproof marine amplifier...   you can find them on Amazon.com with stereos having outputs at 40-50watt peak 20-25w RMS  (this is where you want a 25w speaker)
   
The Boss Audio MR1420S is 240w peak and likely only 100w rms and likely only 50w rms per channel.  That's a decent sounding system with 2 50watt speakers well under the point where the clipping and distortion begin.  Therefore you could expect more than 8 amps continuous if operating at the units true maximum output. 
Which is what I think you mean by "real watts".  Would I run mine at max continuous?  No, not the point though...
My boat won't be the one with the quarters bouncing around on the cabin top... 

I know all about the stereo salesman's lies. 

However you CAN find, and have 50 watts per channel.  But you can't say it doesn't exist.  You are correct that most really cheap marine radios can only pump about 10 watts to a speaker and putting 100 watt speakers on a 10 watt radio is for people who know nothing about electronics or sound.

100 dB is not 100 watts, not sure about that comparison.  If an ordinary factory sound system in an 07 Silverado renders a 60amp/hr battery incapable of starting the vehicle after only 3 hours, then it is drawing some worry-some current for some unknown reason.  Is your 1.4 amp with you inside and the doors closed? If you're on your boat with 4 or more people with the music on and all the loud talking and so on, will your stereo be set to a nice easy listening volume? what if it's windy, well it will be, and you need to pump harder to get the sound through all that moving air.
I already tossed my normal type boombox running on D cells, cuz you can't hear it unless you're on top of it.

Anyway, there is basis for my comment about doing the math on a substantial entertainment system.  Only thing is... I don't care!!!  Mine will be on it's own battery, if it goes flat, the only thing I will have to contend with is SILENCE. 




Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: mainesail on February 08, 2012, 08:14:24 AM
Quote from: Indian Falls on February 07, 2012, 06:59:26 PM
I must respectfully disagree with the last post.

Pyle makes 100 watt marine speakers and a 400 watt waterproof marine amplifier...   you can find them on Amazon.com with stereos having outputs at 40-50watt peak 20-25w RMS  (this is where you want a 25w speaker)

Speaker wattage ratings are for the most part irrelevant and also very often bold faced lies. With clean power most any speaker out there, unless walkie talkie grade can handle the "deck power".. When buying speakers focus on sound quality not what the package says in "W"...

I can guarantee I could blow up those speakers at FAR LESS than 100W of REAL POWER not bogus massaged & misleading marketing claims. My home stereo amp, only a two channel amp no volume buttons, puts out 100 WPC and it weighs over 80 pounds to do so. It has eaten 400W "rated" speakers for lunch. Done it to prove a point to a friend.. The speaker cones were popping at max extension at just 1/4 volume on my pre-amp. That was probably about 30 real watts against a 400W "rated" speaker.
   
Quote from: Indian Falls on February 07, 2012, 06:59:26 PMThe Boss Audio MR1420S is 240w peak and likely only 100w rms and likely only 50w rms per channel.  That's a decent sounding system with 2 50watt speakers well under the point where the clipping and distortion begin.  Therefore you could expect more than 8 amps continuous if operating at the units true maximum output.


Those claims by Boss are EXACTLY what I am talking about, complete lies, but, quite typical. As I mentioned above that unit is at best a 4-8 watt unit if you use any sort of "legitimate" wattage rating system.

This is what a 150 watt per channel amplifier would really look like. This amplifier weighs 90 pounds and requires its own dedicated 20A outlet on AC!!!!!!:
(https://pbase.com/mainecruising/image/171686367.jpg)

This is what a "chip amp" looks like. They are found in most car in-dash stereos. it is about the size of a quarter and weighs about the same as a dime.
(http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00DeFQYLNEsIoT/Car-Audio-and-Power-Amplifier-IC-and-Transistor-TDA-AMS-Series-.jpg)

240 WPC from a car deck ? :abd: Only if they're egregiously lying about it...  Those are most often heavily "massaged" numbers taking one specific easy to drive frequency at a horrible THD distortion level and rating a split second peak to trough. They have other sneaky ways of rating them too, like the "W" does not even mean watts but 400 "wow" factor and some other bogus shenanigans....... More like 4-8 listenable WPC at best at 12.3 - 12.7V and perhaps up to 9-11 at 14.6V... Car audio companies are among the most misleading of any consumer brands when it comes to marketing claims, but they get away with it because the industry is rather lax and few want to self regulate. The ones who are honest, lose sales to the liars so they all choose to mislead....

To be fair here is a 100 WPC car amplifier (at car audio "quality") with only somewhat misleading specs and rather decent sound quality. It will set you back about $2200.00... This amp is 3" Tall x 12.5" Wide x 18.4" Long. It will draw upwards of 50A DC and 2.5A DC sitting there at idle doing nothing...
(https://pbase.com/mainecruising/image/171686376.jpg)

If you want a unit that is more fairly rated, still not a fool proof standard, buy one that says: "Amplifier Power Standard CEA-2006 Compliant." Keep in mind though that this power rating is at 1.0% THD and 14.4V. A 1.0% THD is HORRIBLE and in the ear bleeding range especially when you consider that it is not rated at 20 Hz to 20 kHz and they've picked a "favorable" frequency to rate it at. They are usually way worse than 1% THD if they were accurately rated from 20 Hz to 20 kHz.. My old amp was rated at 0.04% @ 20 Hz to 20 kHz.. This is in the range of not even  audible across the entire frequency range but it took 90 pounds of weight and a dedicated 20A outlet to get there..

On a sailboat you're rarely at 14.4V, and 1% THD is a pretty poor level of distortion as far as sound "quality"...  I would bet it is pretty hard finding ANY CAR OR MARINE DECK (not an external amplifier) that has a CEA-2006 "amplifier" rating. Manufacturers only tend to rate EXTERNAL AMPS not in-dash decks.  They don't rate decks so they can lie to you in the aisles of Wal*Mart and Best Buy.

I found this a while ago and it makes for some interesting reading..

Outrageous Audio Claims

]http://www.outrageousaudio.com/page_files/amp_wattage.pdf] (http://www.outrageousaudio.com/page_files/amp_wattage.pdf)
 
 

Quote from: Indian Falls on February 07, 2012, 06:59:26 PMI know all about the stereo salesman's lies. 

However you CAN find, and have 50 watts per channel.  But you can't say it doesn't exist.  You are correct that most really cheap marine radios can only pump about 10 watts to a speaker and putting 100 watt speakers on a 10 watt radio is for people who know nothing about electronics or sound.


You're not going to find in-dash "deck power" in any car or marine stereo with a real 50WPC that meets CEA standards or any "reputable" method of testing output, but, you can find PLENTY of liars...Yes, you CAN find an external AMPLIFIER that puts out 50WPC but it will suck your bank like a Vampire sucks blood. A quick glance a the McIntosh amp above and its 50A DC current capability should solidify what it takes to produce a real 100WPC in a 12V amplifier. It really puts the "bogus" 240WPC in-dash stereo in perspective..

Quote from: Indian Falls on February 07, 2012, 06:59:26 PM100 dB is not 100 watts, not sure about that comparison.

Not a comparison at all that deck pumps about about 4-8 watts at 12.5v and you can still hit 100dB with it though not very "cleanly".


Quote from: Indian Falls on February 07, 2012, 06:59:26 PMIf an ordinary factory sound system in an 07 Silverado renders a 60amp/hr battery incapable of starting the vehicle after only 3 hours, then it is drawing some worry-some current for some unknown reason.


Many car systems these days use large external amplifiers, and with the key on with most cars these days you're powering more than just the stereo.

Quote from: Indian Falls on February 07, 2012, 06:59:26 PMIs your 1.4 amp with you inside and the doors closed? If you're on your boat with 4 or more people with the music on and all the loud talking and so on, will your stereo be set to a nice easy listening volume? what if it's windy, well it will be, and you need to pump harder to get the sound through all that moving air.
I already tossed my normal type boombox running on D cells, cuz you can't hear it unless you're on top of it.

Yes 1.4A renders a very "listenable" level with our Kenwood Excelon deck but we have efficient speakers and two in the cockpit and two in the salon.

This is two channels driven, 4 Ohm nominal speakers w/92 SPL "rated" efficiency, white noise CD @ 1.62A and 103dB.
(http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/107149688.jpg)


Quote from: Indian Falls on February 07, 2012, 06:59:26 PMAnyway, there is basis for my comment about doing the math on a substantial entertainment system.  Only thing is... I don't care!!!  Mine will be on it's own battery, if it goes flat, the only thing I will have to contend with is SILENCE.

No in-dash car deck is a "substantial" system and you'll be at .3A to 4.8A +/- .... :thumb:





Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Ken Juul on February 08, 2012, 12:41:48 PM
MaineSail, all I can say is wow.  I've read alot of stereo/speaker reviews sitting in waiting rooms and I have never seen a presentation like that. :clap

But with 60 year old ears that have been listening to rock played too loud rock since the '60s and 20+ years around turbine aircraft I'm just happy to be able to hear the music.  Specs don't mean much to me anymore.  I go with what sounds good to me and will last in the environment they are used.  There is a lot of Bose bashing, may be true for a real audiophile, but my 301's have been going strong for 30 years (both bass speakers were upgraded by Bose about 12 years ago), the Bose outdoor box speakers on the deck and boat are both over 15 years old and still sound good to me

Like anchors, Battery switches/charging systems, and the other hot topics, this really is: your boat, your ears, your choice.
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: mainesail on February 08, 2012, 12:54:17 PM
Quote from: Ken Juul on February 08, 2012, 12:41:48 PM
MaineSail, all I can say is wow.  I've read alot of stereo/speaker reviews sitting in waiting rooms and I have never seen a presentation like that. :clap

But with 60 year old ears that have been listening to rock played too loud rock since the '60s and 20+ years around turbine aircraft I'm just happy to be able to hear the music.  Specs don't mean much to me anymore.  I go with what sounds good to me and will last in the environment they are used.  There is a lot of Bose bashing, may be true for a real audiophile, but my 301's have been going strong for 30 years (both bass speakers were upgraded by Bose about 12 years ago), the Bose outdoor box speakers on the deck and boat are both over 15 years old and still sound good to me.  

Like anchors, Battery switches/charging systems, and the other hot topics, this really is: your boat, your ears, your choice.

I am a "recovering" audiophile.. Part of my recover is to listen to my crappy boat stereo through crappy Blose speakers... :thumb: I've learned to live with it...

When it got to the point where I had nearly as much money in a 2CH stereo system as I paid for our boat I severed the cord... :D

My only point is that I don't want people to assume they are going to be drawing 8-20A through a car type deck... They draw very little at decent listening levels....

I had a customer who was concerned about it and wanted to buy a Fusion. I made this video for him. As you can see with the stereo clipping, and this was at 14.2V BTW, it was drawing just 1.5 +/- amps...

BTW This unit is rated at 280 Watts or 4X70 WPC. Hmmm 1.5A at clipping?????? :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u0lKKWlX1I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u0lKKWlX1I)
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: Indian Falls on February 08, 2012, 06:15:30 PM
Very impressive show of knowledge there. 
It will be a great addition to the forum as info, somehow I feel like I've been hit over the head with it. 
None-the-less, it answers the math question, and proves that you can have 100 "advertised" watts on your boat.

Thanks!


Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: waterdog on February 08, 2012, 10:14:04 PM
Why all this talk about power?   I just built a tube amplifier that kicks out a lofty 16W a side.  All the sound you could ever want.

Now I just need to figure out how to marinize it to go on the boat.    As a side benefit, it would probably heat a boat through a Canadian winter.    Come to think of it, I may may have a little efficiency problem.   Pretty sure it consumes at least an honest 100W!

   
Title: Re: stereo-battery connection
Post by: mainesail on February 09, 2012, 09:03:40 AM
Quote from: Indian Falls on February 08, 2012, 06:15:30 PM
Very impressive show of knowledge there.  
It will be a great addition to the forum as info, somehow I feel like I've been hit over the head with it.  
None-the-less, it answers the math question, and proves that you can have 100 "advertised" watts on your boat.

Thanks!




Please, please, please don't feel like you've been hit over the head, that was NOT my intent. I am very sorry if it came across that way.

I am passionate about that subject and it goes back to my good friend who is a musician, and who LOVES music. Unknown to me he went four years without using his on-board stereo because it said 400W on the front of it and he did not want to kill his bank. Without a  battery monitor he just assumed the 400W to be true. Once I showed him it drew 0.5A to 2.2A he was a VERY happy camper and is still listening to music on-board to this day...

I just get frustrated that manufacturers are allowed to BLATANTLY lie, and get away with it. It is simply not fair to the consumer. This is done in the vitamin supplement industry, electronics industry and many others and it is just "accepted".

What if the drug companies were allowed to BLATANTLY lie, with no data or FDA oversight to keep checks and balances better in-line? What if our drug companies had a complete lack of clinical trials or scientific peer reviewed journals to keep them in-check??  I don't want to go there, but with "neutraceuticals" and "electronics" we just accept it... :cry4`Trust me I am NOT for any more government "intervention", as we all know how that goes, I just want some semblance of honesty.

The lies in the electronics & neutraceuticals industries have become so egregious that it does not even resemble anything even close to the truth. Sadly every year people spemd hundreds of millions on one stereo over another because one manufacturer told a bigger lie than the next, or, the neutraceutical company told me I'd cure cancer and my manhood would grow 6 inches.... :shock:

Fair to the US consumer...? Hardly....

End rant... :D