Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Mike and Joanne Stimmler on December 14, 2006, 06:46:00 PM

Title: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem?? M35 Engines & Fuel Pump Wiring
Post by: Mike and Joanne Stimmler on December 14, 2006, 06:46:00 PM
Is there an easy way to tell if my glow plugs are working? My engine has been hard to start for some time now but it does always start.When the engine is cold I usually hit the glow plugs for 45 seconds, crank for 10 seconds,no start, Then I hit the glow plugs for another 45 seconds, crank for 10 seconds, no start. Then I wait for about 5 minutes then do the same thing a third time and it ALWAYS starts on the 3rd attempt. The cranking is always strong so I don't think it's a battery problem and when the engine is warm it always starts no problem, I do not have the solenoid on my glow plug circut but with the amount of time I'm heating the plugs, that shouldn't be the issue either although I'm sure it would help. Would I have this issue if one of my plugs is not working? I do see a definite voltage drop when I'm hitting the glow plugs so I know that something is drawing.
Any ideas?
Thanks in advance     :donno:

Mike
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Craig Illman on December 14, 2006, 07:11:33 PM
1. Do the glow plug project!!  2. Take an ohmmeter to each glow plug and measure the resistance to ground (after disconnecting the wire). I think you'll find in one of the Kubota manuals (toward the end of #2), elsewhere in this site, that the resistance should be about 1 - 1.2 ohms. Zero resistance means it's shorted, infinite resistance means an internal wire is broken. If you find a defective one, get the Kubota part number from manual 3 and order it from your local Kubota dealer or tractorsmart.com for about $8 vs. about $50 from Marine Diesel Direct.

Craig
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Stu Jackson on December 14, 2006, 11:51:51 PM
Mike, as in all things electrical, try checking your connections, and those for the grounds.  You may have to drop your alternator to do it, but check all the wiring on the starter, including the connector from the fuse to the slip on inboard of the solenoid.  Check the fuse and holder.  Check the glow plug button in the cockpit panel.  Carefully check to see if all of the glow plugs are hot after your first button push.  Check the connections at the glow plugs -- just loosen 'em, squirt with a suitable lubricant and re-tighten.  Keep track of what you do, step-by-step, try the easy ones first.  I don't remember hearing anyone talk of having to replace the glow plugs themselves.

If it turns out you do have to go to a Kubota dealer for anything, and if tractorsmart.com doesn't work for you, try the sources mentioned for Kubota parts in : http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=3133.0  they'll take your order and ship anywhere.

Also, remember Dave's post a few weeks ago about the engine kill switch being left on?  Before you do all the electrical stuff, check that.  It could well be that a little shaking when cranking could free up whatever seems to be stopping your engine from starting.  I.E., maybe it's NOT electrical, too.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Stu Jackson on December 15, 2006, 09:40:48 AM
Also, thinking some more about this:  Is your electric fuel pump working and do you have more than a half a tank of fuel?  I know, sounds crazy, but before you rip your boat apart, you may want to consider all the off-the-wall ideas.  My thought was that you're not starting, but your batteries are fine, or else you wouldn't be able to keep cranking.  So, what is it that stops an engine from running?  Air, fuel or electrical.  Just trying to play detective and what I'd do if it were our boat.  Keep us posted.

Also, in checking the connections, make sure the lugs are really connected.  They may look good, but pull on 'em.  We found that out the hard way in our fridge-not-working post recently.  And, as John Nixon reminded us in his comments on that post, check behind the electrical panel, unless you're absolutely sure that everything back there is getting juice to everything out there.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Ron Hill on December 15, 2006, 07:25:17 PM
Mike : Before you blame the glow plugs answer this question " is your electric fuel pump working??" and is fuel flowing?

To check the glow plugs is a simple task.   You can use a meter as other have suggested, but here's another trouble shooting measure. 
When you turn on the glow plugs you should see about a 2 volt drop on the engine voltmeter.   After you have engaged the glow plugs for 45 seconds GINGERLY feel the top of the glow plus - they should be very warm.   A glow plug is a item that can, but seldom goes bad.  The usual problem is the connections or the wiring.

If you haven't made the glow plug improvement upgrade by installing a solenoid and rewiring that circuit you should do it now!!
You can cut the glow plug ON time to 10/15 seconds!!  I wrote an article in the Mainsteet and it's in projects. 
A few thoughts.    :wink:
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Mike and Joanne Stimmler on December 16, 2006, 09:55:40 AM
Thank you all for your ideas! I know the fuel punp is working, I can hear it running and I can start and stop it with the bleed screw. The most fuel I have ever had to use on a fill up is 5 gal and I just filled up last week so I think we can rule that out, filters have been changed recently. The starter and batterys seem to be OK because cranking is good, I am seeing the voltage drop when activating the plugs. The kill switch is physically pushed down while starting but I will check if there could be an issue with play in the cable. The cable was replaced about 6 mos ago, could a small movement make the difference between on and off? I will also check all the connectons and feel the top of the plugs to see if they are hot to the touch. I will be going back to the boat the day after Christmas to do some cruising around San Diego and Oceanside and will check things out then if I can dodge the kelp beds.

Thanks again,      :santa
Mike
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Ron Hill on December 16, 2006, 12:59:08 PM
Mike : You and any of the other readers that have not upgraded your glow plug wiring, should seriously conside doing that easy upgrade for the M25 and 25XP engines!!

What's happening now is that when you engage the glow plugs the current is coming from the starter solenoid connection at the engine.  It then travels up to the key switch and back to the glowplugs thur a #10 wire.  That's about 18 feet!! and the glow plugs by their nature are high resistance and draw many amps.  The 18 feet of wire (NONmarine grade) reduces the amperage drasticly by the time it gets to the glow plugs.

The modification calls for running a #6 wire from that same starter solenoid around the back of the engine to a Ford truck solenoid + on one side (the case is negative) and then from the other side + to the #3 aft glow plug.  You connect the glow plug wire from the key switch to the "I" terminal on the truck solenoid.  That truck solenoid is acting as a switch that opens and closes the heavy #6 (marine grade) wire from the battery connection at the starter solenoid (less than 3 ft of wire) to the aft glow plug using nearly twice the size wire!!  The key switch "opens and closes" the truck solenoid.  This allows the glow plugs to REALLY heat up in a fraction of the time!!!!

Try it -- your engine will love it!!   :clap
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Stu Jackson on December 16, 2006, 02:00:25 PM
Mike, another piece of the puzzle just got to me:  you said -- "...when the engine is warm it always starts no problem,.."

We never (or rarely) use the glow plug button after sailing around.  The engine is still warm enough, and starts right up.

That started me thinking, along with Ron's post, that your original startup issue is with the power to the glow plugs.

So, try this:  Change your startup procedure for one time --- instead of your 45, try, 45 try, wait, try it works, just hold the button in twice as long the first time, then try it. 

If it works, you just KNOW that the power you DO have isn't getting to the glow plugs.  Could be the wire, could be a simple loose (but not failed) connection somewhere.

But it'll lead you to the conclusion to do the solenoid project, which is really all of a ten minute job, well documented, as you already know, in Projects: http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-glowplugs.html
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Bob K on December 19, 2006, 02:07:56 PM
This might sound rather silly, but I had some trouble with cold engine starts, and I found that the engine starts easier when cold if I give it more throttle. 
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Footloose on December 20, 2006, 05:32:59 AM
Mike,

I have to believe that you have a bad ground in your system.  What leads me to this is that you have no problem starting when the engine is warm and the amount of time you need to "glow" before you can start.  With a small amount of resistance there is a large power loss.  After pre-heating the cylinders with the plugs you probally have several minutes before needing to crank the engine to get it to start.  The fact that it is not starting is from the cylinders being cold.  After you heat them for several minutes with a weak voltage they are eventually getting warm enough.  Check all of the connectors in the wiring harness and upgrade it if you need to.  Solder, crimp, and shrink tubing as has been said.

The glow plug solenoid upgrade is easy.  My engine will start after 7 seconds of glow even when the air temp is in the 40's and water in the 50's.

This stuff usually goes back to Ohm's Law.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Mike and Joanne Stimmler on January 03, 2007, 02:51:24 PM
OK, here's what happened on my last visit to the boat. In testing the glow plugs I found that only one of the plugs(the forward most one or the last one in the loop) was getting hot to the touch and all connections looked OK.The engine started as usual (after 3 attempts)then the next day it wouldn't start at all and I also noticed that the volt meter was now pegging to the low side, indicating a dead short in the glow plug line. At this point I'm seeing that the conditions have changed somewhat. So, I disconnected the plug that was getting hot and that cleared the short however the other two still connected are not getting hot after checking the voltages to be good to them. What I'm thinking is that the glow plugs have gradually been going bad one at a time and that I've been working on one plug for a while, which finally shorted out, the others going open. Does this sound logical? I was able to start the engine using starting fluid (ether) and I thought I had a new best friend (glow plug in a can)because it started like right now!!!Then a friendly mechanic told me to NEVER use starting fluid because the combustion is so strong that it can actually break pistin rings and other components! Anyway, I have ordered 3 new plugs from Tractorsmart.com for $11.81 each for my next trip. I was told that you can also test glow plugs when you have them out by simply connecting 12 volts to the top threaded part and grounding the base threads that screws into the block and the element at the bottom should actually glow if it's good.
Here are some part numbers and prices for glow plugs for the M-25XP

Universal #299685 for $63.69
Kubota #15951-65512 for $11.81 at Tractorsmart.com
                                 or $19.26 at TDC

I'll let you know how everything works out on my next trip.

Mike
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Craig Illman on January 03, 2007, 03:15:23 PM
Mike -

Ron may correct me, but when I changed my glow plugs a few weeks ago pro-actively, I was only able to change two of the three in my M25-XP. There wasn't clearance to remove the center one without removing the intake manifold. Since I wasn't yet having starting issues to the degree you're experiencing, I left the intake manifold in place. I went with the $11~ versions from tractorsmart.com.

Craig
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Ron Hill on January 03, 2007, 06:32:08 PM
Guys : NEVER use ether or starting fluid as it had a very very low flash point.  What happens is it ignites as one of the pistons is still coming up and that explosion forces the piston DOWN.   You can really screw up a diesel using that stuff!

Crag : You're correct, you'll have to remove the intake manifold to get all of the glow plugs out.  Removing that manifold is easy as the gasket on my M25XP stayed in place and it slid off and on nicely.    :wink:
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Mike and Joanne Stimmler on January 04, 2007, 07:12:38 AM
Ron,
So does that mean that I should not have to replace the gasket on the manifold? Will I need to use a gasket sealer after taking it off?

Mike
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Ron Hill on January 04, 2007, 02:40:03 PM
Mike : The gasket that is already there should not have to be replaced.  Mine stayed completely attached to the engine rather than the removable manifold.  That manifold doesn't need an absolute seal so if there's a small leak it'll be OK.  So when I replaced the manifold, it slid back on and I snugged (don't crank) down the bolts.   :clap
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: David Sanner on January 04, 2007, 07:43:20 PM

Another option (that I learned from a diesel mechanic) it to remove
injector lines.  (This is how the mechanic tested the compression)

Just remember to keep everything clean and cover the fittings
at the injector pump and the injectors.  The torque is around
20-25lbs when reconnecting.... make sure the fittings are centered.

Also, I'm assuming it works because some have done it but it must
be an pretty tight fitting getting the forward glow plug out without
hitting the injector pipe by the pump.

Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Tom Soko on January 05, 2007, 10:06:51 AM
Mike,
If you are careful when removing the intake manifold and not damage the gasket, you should be able to re-use it.  Also, because the intake manifold operates under vacuum, and not under pressure, you should not need gasket cement.  You want to have a good seal, but the seal is not as critical as one would be if there was an internal pressure and you were afraid of a fluid or gas leaking out.  I also re-used my gasket when I took the manifold off to check/clean the glow plugs and add a nipple for the crankcase vent hose.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Mike and Joanne Stimmler on January 05, 2007, 11:27:47 AM
Thanks, everyone for your input. I will definately also be doing the solonoid upgrade after I get the glow plugs figured out.

Mike
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Mike and Joanne Stimmler on February 03, 2007, 04:24:59 PM
Well, I was at the boat last weekend and replaced all 3 glow plugs and everything is working great now! I did have to take the intake manifold off but it wasn't any big deal and I was able to reuse the existing gasket. Apparently there are two types of manifolds, one has 3 separate tubes,  requiring 3 gaskets(thats the one that I have)and the other one is more of a flat casting still with 3 ports but only using one large gasket. Of course i thought it would be a good idea to have a gasket available just in case so I wouldn't have to wait until my next visit to complete this job so I odered a gasket of the type I thought I had(picked the wrong one)and had to pay for it in advance because it wasn't a stock item so I got stuck buying the wrong gasket that I didn't need anyway! Turns out the other gaskets that I would have needed(if I really needed a gasket) were normal stock items. I'm still very happy with the service I got from the people at A to Z Marine in San Diego. They went out of their way to make sure the part I thought I needed was there when I needed it.
The engine is now starting with a 15 to 20 second glow time but I'm still planning on doing the solenoid upgrade.

Thanks for all of your input,
Mike
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Craig Illman on February 03, 2007, 04:59:39 PM
I pulled my manifold yesterday to get at the middle glow plug and the rear gasket split in half. I'd purchased three new ones, just in case. I managed to get everything back together without losing any of the bolts or messing anything else up. (I'm great at planning, but sometimes my execution doesn't measure up).

We attempted to go sailing today, but the wind must have all stayed down in Florida. We motored around a bit instead, saw a few Dahl's porpoise hunting salmon on the current breaks. The Vetus K-75 mounts certainly make a difference in how smooth the boat now cruises. I'm not sure what benefit I'd see from adding a flexible coupling.

on to more projects, I found an Espar D4 on eBay for 75% list. I guess I'll be lazarette diving next weekend. It's nice to be 5'6" when you own a sailboat.

Craig
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Bill Sedgwick on February 04, 2007, 09:32:19 AM
Mike,

Since your are in San Diego, come visit the SDCatA meeting at Silver Gate Yacht Club next wednesday at 7 PM or come early for dinner. I'm SGYC Fleet Captain so I can assure you that you'll be welcome. Capt. Al Sorkin will be our speaker. BTW, I have a local source for Kubota parts. Seems that Bobcats have Kubota engines.

Bill
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Stu Jackson on February 04, 2007, 12:38:54 PM
Kubota part dealers were included in this thread:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=3133.0

Regardless of where you live, you can always order parts and have them delivered by mail.  I used the Livermore dealer and had the parts within two days.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Mike and Joanne Stimmler on February 04, 2007, 02:52:21 PM
Bill,
Thanks for the invitation but I live in Phoenix and am usually just in SD for long weekends once or twice a month. Where do you keep your boat? I'm at Marina Village in Mission Bay.

Mike
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Bill Sedgwick on February 05, 2007, 08:34:33 PM
Mike & Joanne,

Sorry you can't make the meeting. We're in Shelter Island at Silver Gate Yacht Club. Stop by some time an join us for dinner.

Bill
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Michael on June 16, 2007, 11:24:09 PM
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=3725.0 is a thread about what appears, near the end (?) of a long and winding road, might be a glow plug problem similar to the one Mike Stimmler dealt with here.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Ron Hill on June 17, 2007, 02:37:54 PM
Michael : With all of the problems that you've had you might just go ahead and replace all 4 of the glow plugs; after you check with Bill Nuttall and confirm that your wiring is OK.  The plugs for an M25XP are a Kubota 15951-65512 @ $11.81 each at tractorsmart.com 
I suspect that your M35 glow plugs MAY be the same, that's why I said to remove one and go to your local Kubota dealer and confirm it!   :wink:
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Michael on June 18, 2007, 12:46:35 AM
Ron:

Thank you for finding my tail-on posting to this thread of Mike Stimmler.

As indicated on the other thread, our M-35B glow plugs appear to be stamped NGK Y103V. Whether they are the original glow plugs that came with the engine is not clear.  At a NGK website, these glow plugs are described as fast activated sheathed glow plugs that should be operated for 15-17 seconds, which corresponds well with Stu Jackson's recommended energizing time.  The December, 2001, Universal Parts List (page 44) indicates that the glow plugs for the M-25XPB and M-35B have the same Universal Part # (200595) so I am hoping it is safe to conclude that the Kubota part # (15951-65512) you have for the glow plugs for a M-25XP will also apply to the M-35B.

Your advice to replace the glow plugs seems prescient.  The resistance of each plug (terminal to body) tested today in the 1.9-2.2 ohms range.  The Universal engine service manual claims that the standard value is 0.9 to 1.2 ohms, and that glow plugs that test outside this range should be replaced.  Possibly the Universal manual is referring to a different type of glow plug with different standard values than ours. I will try to check on the NGK site.

We are going to try to get four new plugs from our local Kubota dealer.  We'll go armed with your part numbers.  Thanks again.

Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Ron Hill on June 18, 2007, 03:23:17 PM
Michael : Look at my post (above) again.  Before you buy new glowplugs; make sure that the glowplugs you have are infact heating when they're mounted in each cylinder!!   :!:
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Michael on June 19, 2007, 01:21:39 AM
M35 Engines & Fuel Pump Wiring

Ron:

Thank you for the advice to re-read your post.

I was dimly aware that you were advising me to check out the electric circuits first.  But today, while the fuel pump, air filter cannister, and some fuel hoses were off and it was easy to get at the glow plugs, I replaced the glow plugs.  (NAPA had the NGK Y103V plugs for $13.06 CDN each.) Tomorrow, we will see if glow plugs were (part of) the problem. (I have a sinking feeling that the gremlin has moved on.)

BTW, on the M-35B, a deep 1/2" socket wrench works to remove all the glow plugs except #3 (second from aft plug).  The air intake manifold gets in the way of using a socket wrench on glow plug #3, but with the front engine panel and air filter cannister off, you can get a 1/2" ring wrench around #3 from below and behind.  Its a bit slow going but do-able.

Today, I also removed the "new" Facet Purolator "Posi-Flow" universal electric fuel lift pump that we installed a couple of weeks ago. It seems to have been dead on purchase or dead soon after.  Got another one from NAPA, who are quite willing to take the dead one back, and installed it.  It makes happy pump sounds...but only when hotwired to the battery and not (on the one quick occasion I could try it) when the keyswitch was in the "on but not glowplugs" position.  The pump manufacturer recommends a 3 to 5 amp automotive type fuse be placed in the fuel pump circuit.  The old lift pump didn't have a fuse in the circuit but so far as I can tell seems to have relied on the 10 amp circuit breaker that is attached (on my M-35B anyway) to the starboard light duty terminal on the preheat solenoid. For anyone interested in what goes on inside these plastic-bodied Posi-Flo pumps and how they fail, the postings by Tim C Cook in a discussion thread at http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/1201037611/r/9121070811 seem to have the air of credibility about them.

Which brings me back to the electrics, Ron.  I have been putting off emailing Bill Nuttall as you recommended because I have not yet got my tackle in order to describe the nature of Hali's electrical problems (?) in a coherent fashion...and because my testing of the electrical circuits hasn't gone far enough.

As ever, thanks.




 
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: John Sheehan on June 19, 2007, 07:56:39 AM
Michael,

On the M-35B engine diagrams and in the actual wiring the fuel pump will not operate with the engine not running unless you have the switch in the glow plug position. Once the engine is running, and you have oil pressure, the fuel pump should operate.  When you switch to the glow plug position you should hear the pump clicking.

John
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Michael on June 19, 2007, 05:57:22 PM
John, thank you.

I wish I had got your posting last night instead of tonight!

Puzzling over the wiring diagram this morning, I realized that the low oil pressure switch (which I presume is "off" when the engine is stopped or if oil pressure fails) controls the fuel pump electrical circuit in ordinary operation (keyswitch merely at "on" between B and I) and the low oil pressure switch would need to be "on" for the fuel pump to operate in that case.

To test the theory (and perhaps figure out how low oil pressure switches work!) I jumpered around the low oil pressure switch and so got the new-new fuel pump to work. (The old new fuel pump really was dead on arrival.)

Unfortunately, the problem of lack of heat from the glow plugs continues, despite new glow plugs.  I am assuming and checking for the electrical gremlin.  Today's question is, "Why would glow plugs that work fine when wired directly to the battery not produce much or any heat when wired in place in the engine block even when, to test them, they are powered directly from the battery and not through the preheat solenoid?" [Modified posting: Electrical troubleshooter Jim, referred to in a later post, says that there may not be much heat perceptible on the engine block near the glow plugs or on the glow plug terminals or other parts of the glow plugs you can touch when then glow plugs are in the engine block. Since the "fix" referred to later in these postings, I have not checked to ascertain whether the now correctly operating glow plugs do produce much perceptible heat.]   I suppose either the glow plugs collectively need more power than is reaching them (I am wondering whether the house and starting battery used to be used and are not now or if the house bank is low or...) or there is a short somewhere in the system that provides a better path for the electricity than through the glow plugs. I feel like a bloody Don Quixote chasing these gremlins...which will probably turn out to have been brought to life by something I did.  Oh, well, one or two more windmills.  Thanks for your help and that of everyone who has contributed to this thread.





Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Mike and Joanne Stimmler on June 19, 2007, 06:50:14 PM
Michael,
So sad to be reading of you're problems and I hope I can help.

First, if you haven't tried this already, try a longer glow time, even as much as 45 seconds, just to prove if the plugs are getting anything at all.

Also notice on the volt meter while you are holding the glow plug button to see if you are seeing a noticeable voltage drop of 2 or 3 volts. I you don't see a voltage drop, then nothing is getting to the plugs, if it drops WAY down, you have a dead short on the circuit.

Then I would re-verify if you have voltage at the top of each plug and depending on what you have found from the above paragraph, you may want to disconnect them one at a time and try starting the engine after each disconnect.

Lastly, even after I changed my plugs and everything was working good, I never felt a major amount of heat at the top of the plugs, just a slight warming, as you did, so that may not be an accurate test.

Best of Luck.
Mike Stimmler
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Craig Illman on June 19, 2007, 06:53:34 PM
Michael - Do you hear the solenoid "click" when you engage the glow plug position on the key? (you may have covered this before). One project I did over the winter was copy Mark Elkin's secondary starter switch project. http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-secondary-starter-switch.html

It's helpfull for bleeding injectors and other "cranking while solo" needs. Possibly, there's an inline fuse between the battery and solenoid that's blown.

Craig
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Footloose on June 20, 2007, 05:45:35 PM
Michael,

I am lead to believe that you have a poor or high resistance connection somewhere in your starting circuit.  You need to follow it from the batteries to the engine.

A simple test is to disconnect the batteries and place one end of an ohm meter on the engine and the other on the ground wire in the battery box.  If it reads more that 0.5 ohms start looking at those connections.  Do the same thing on the positive side but the pos lead is on the starter or alternator.  Many of us have cut off the original ring terminals on the battery cables and replaced them with good results.  I said this before, a small amount of resistance result in a large power drop at large current draws.  I have to admit that I thought you had found the problem when your glow plugs were reading out of spec. 

Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Michael on June 20, 2007, 06:43:57 PM
Mike, Craig, David:

Thank you for your advice.  I'll check through the things you mentioned.

Dave, I was getting about a 1 ohm resistance between the starter battery negative and the engine block...but I am doubting my multimeter now as it gave me 1.9-2.2 ohms as the resistance between the terminals and the body of Hali's old NGK Y103V glow plugs and not much better for the new NGK Y103V glow plugs.  A new multimeter is in order although I am afraid this is the bad workman blaming...

The weather is good now and my co-owners are concerned (rightly!) that I will soon have the boat entirely in pieces.  After I removed all the electrical connections to the engine last night - testing the new glow plugs each step of the way (without success) - and two of us replaced all the connections afterwards, we couldn't get the starter motor to crank.  So my co-owners are calling in the cavalry (experienced big diesel engine mechanic who works with one of them) to rescue their boat from me.  We are going to put our brains together aboard Hali tomorrow night.

I will produce the bodies of the dead gremlins if we kill them.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: tonywright on June 20, 2007, 07:20:37 PM
If you can't get the starter motor to crank, then your battery terminal connections need radical tightening. Use a wrench to tighten them as much as you can without breaking anything. You will be amazed at the results.

Tony
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Footloose on June 21, 2007, 02:45:22 AM
Michael,

What reading do you get if you touch the leads of the ohm meter together?  That should be zero.  If it isn't, there is an adjustment for that on the meter.

If you have one ohm of resistance you loose 3600 watts of power at 60 amps (about what my glow plugs draw).  That is a lot of heat that isn't going to the glow plugs.  At 200 amps, the starter motor, you are losing 40,000 watts, which is not only a lot more heat but also about 50 horse power which could make your starter crank slowly or not at all.

Getting another opinion is never a bad idea.  We can become blinded to something very obvious after we have started chasing a red herring.

Hang in there.  I had similar problems when I first bought my boat but all is well now.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Michael on June 22, 2007, 01:26:32 AM
Eureka!

A great gremlin hunter, Jim, a troubleshooter from co-owner Lionel's stationary diesel electric company, has driven a stake through the heart of the electrical gremlin aboard Hali.

Jim may have exposed problems C34 owners can create for themselves when they replace old electric fuel lift pumps with new "electronic" fuel pumps like the popular inexpensive Facet Purolator "Posi-Flo".

Later, I may write this up more succinctly and accurately.  Meanwhile, brick bats are invited.

The theory -- possibly somewhat proven by the fact that Hali now starts "first time every time" -- is that a gremlin lives in the intermittent making and breaking of the electrical circuit through the "electronic" fuel pump but that this gremlin expresses itself in the rather inscrutable way of interfering with the energizing of the preheat solenoid that completes the glow plug circuit.

To paraphrase partly John's post above of June 19: on the M-35B engine wiring diagram [see your Catalina owner's manual] and in the actual wiring of the M-35B engine, when the engine is not running the electric lift fuel pump will only operate when the keyswitch is in the "glow plugs on" position.  Put another way, the electric lift fuel pump on the M-35B will operate (a) when the keyswitch is in the "glow plugs on" position (which of course it only should be before the engine is cranked) or (b) when the low pressure oil switch is closed (as it usually is once the engine is running). The fuel pump is wired simultaneously into two circuits - this is much clearer on the wiring diagram which unfortunately I do not have before me at the moment.  One of these circuits is completed only when the keyswitch is turned to the "glow plugs on" position and one is completed when the low pressure oil switch is closed. If the keyswitch is at the "on" position but not at the "glow plugs on" position, and the engine is not running (and therefore the low oil pressure switch is not closed), the fuel pump will not be energized. (I say energized rather than operating because there will be cases when the pump is receiving an electrical current but is not operating because the fuel line pressure is such that no demand for fuel is being made - that is, I guess, above about 4 pounds per square inch gauge pressure on these Posi-Flo pumps which are rated for 1.5 to 4 PSI.)  In other words, when the M-35B engine is off, don't expect to hear the fuel pump clacking away when the keyswitch is only at "on".

Now the problem as it is theorized to be is that because the electrical circuit ("preheat solenoid activating circuit") that energizes the preheat solenoid (which acts as a switch to close the glow plugs circuit) runs through the electric lift fuel pump (a clever way to make sure that when the glow plugs are energizing fuel is also being delivered by the lift pump to the fuel injection pump for onward delivery to the cylinders when the engine cranks), if the lift pump electronics are making and breaking they make and break the preheat solenoid activating circuit with the result that the preheat solenoid does not close - or closes intermittently - and the further results that the glow plugs do not energize sufficiently to heat the cylinders and compression ignition is not achieved.

Without the benefit of investigation, the speculation is that the old electric lift fuel pumps operated without making and breaking the electrical circuit and so did not interrupt the preheat solenoid activating circuit -- but the new "electronic" pumps do or can in some cases (Hali's apparently being one).

At first blush, Jim thought there was an easy complete fix: ground the preheat solenoid energizing circuit immediately after it passed across the preheat solenoid low power terminals -- that is, ground one of the preheat low power terminals and terminate the "glow plugs on" circuit from the keyswitch and the 10 amp circuit breaker/fuel pump/low pressure oil switch circuit on the other preheat solenoid low power terminal. However, on further thought, he realized that if this were done, there was a possibility, when the engine is running and the low oil pressure switch has closed its circuit to the electric fuel pump, that that circuit would activate the preheat solenoid and cause the glow plugs to energize.  His more complete solution is to re-wire as indicated but with a diode (one way electrical current flow device) in the fuel pump/low pressure oil switch circuit just before it connects to the preheat solenoid low power terminal.  The diode would prevent electrical energy from flowing from the fuel pump/low presure oil switch circuit to energize the preheat solenoid and glow plugs when the engine is running - something that could cause the glow plugs to crack and shed material into the engine cylinders.

Jim is going to wire the diode and send it along for installation in the circuit.

Here lies a dead gremlin (?) and maybe a stillborn one.

My many thanks to all of you who helped along this path.


Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: tonywright on June 22, 2007, 09:00:57 AM
Great news.  Seems a good rational explanation.

This also explains one of my earlier questions. I wondered why the Universal manual required continued application of glow plug until after the oil pressure alarm switches off. Now it is clear that it is not so much to keep the plugs glowing, but to keep fuel pumping until the oil pressure sensor stops blocking the circuit to the pump. Conclusion: I will continue to follow the manual's recommended procedure. It hasn't let me down so far.

I just realized that I am in your direct vicinity this weekend. My daughter is appearing in "Bard on the Beach". if I am not mistaken, that is pretty much next to your marina?

Tony
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 22, 2007, 10:36:59 AM
Sometimes engineering "improvements" screw things up!  The older boats had a very simple solution:  engine on, pump runs, no solenoid unless an owner installed one.  It would be quite easy for your mechanic to simplify the wiring and avoid the inherent dependencies of one upon the other -- of course, there is a good reason for the way the boat is wired, but sometimes complications are involved.  Congratulations on your research and problem solving, and your updates and report.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Michael on June 22, 2007, 10:43:30 AM
Tony - Lucky you having a daughter playing in Bard on the Beach.  Yes, that is very close to the marina where we keep Hali. If you have a minute this weekend, will you call me on 604-970-9345?  That's a cellphone that doesn't take messages so you might have to try a few times.  I would be delighted to show you the boat.  Cheers. Michael

Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: sedelange on June 23, 2007, 10:33:21 PM
Micheal:

The fuel pump is connected to the Indicator terminal of the glow plug relay and therefore should not affect the glowplugs as it is energised only when the relay is activated.  The relay should be grounded through the base.  If there is nothing wrong with the relay, the small current drawn by the fuel pump (old or new style) should present no problem.  Many people confuse this style relay it the ones where the two small terminal posts are for the coil when, in fact, the coil is connected to one terminal and the base.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Michael on June 24, 2007, 01:36:00 PM
Steve - Thank you for your note.  Before I concede that the gremlin was killed by luck (which is entirely possible), I wonder whether the solenoid we are using - a Cole Hersee 12v continuous (Part Number 24059) - is wired as you mention.  The wiring diagram is at http://www.colehersee.com/resource/index.htm and while it does not appear to be wired with the solenoid activation circuit the way you mention I cannot conclude that for certain.  You have raised an interesting point that I will try to get to the bottom of. 
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Ron Hill on June 24, 2007, 02:31:06 PM
Michael : Why don't you call Joe Joyce (the Westerbeke Service manager @508-588-7700) and ask him if you an just run a separate wire from the "on" pole of the key switch to the fuel pump and another separate wire from the "spring loaded" pole of the key switch to the glow plug solenoid.  Then you could bypass all of the "automatic" relay stuff and have both the glow plugs and the fuel pump operate when YOU want them to! 
A thought.  :wink:   
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Michael on June 24, 2007, 09:44:33 PM
Hello, Ron.

Jim (troubleshooter) and I had a discussion about doing almost what you suggest.  If the boat were mine alone I might do it: it  would be nice to control the fuel pump/low oil pressure circuit and glow plugs separately.  However, two considerations weighed against it.  The more important was that we have four families in Hali and want to keep things simple, meaning in this case not having to make a conscious choice to turn more things on or off (and know why you are doing it).  The other was the nuisance of having to pull the wire.  (In fact, we were also thinking of putting the fuel pump on a separate switch as we hadn't come exactly to your idea of adding the fuel pump circuit to the "on" switch.  So that was another factor.)  Anyway, we decided to leave the glow plugs/fuel pump/low oil pressure switch circuits together but with the re-wiring and diode mentioned above.

The theory of failure mentioned previously - although it seems to be supported by the result - does depend upon an assumption about the different nature of the new "electronic" fuel pumps as compared to the old electric fuel pumps that I am not sure will be found to be true.  Perhaps Steve has somewhat similar misgivings about the analysis although he comes at it from the point of view of the solenoid.

In the circumstances, I am not sure whether I will call Joe Joyce at Westerbeke although I appreciate your suggestion and it would be interesting to know whether he knows of others having similar issues with new electric fuel pumps.

As ever, thanks for your input.



Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: sedelange on June 24, 2007, 10:30:30 PM
Micheal,

The 24059 is not the type used in the wiring diagram.  You need a 24103. No wonder you are having trouble.  You should be able to get the equivalent at the local auto parts. 

Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Michael on June 24, 2007, 10:53:12 PM
Hello, Steve:

Interesting point you make and thank you for following up.

The preheat solenoid that was on Hali was a Cole Hersee 24059, so I simply replaced like with like.  It looked as though it was probably the one that came with the engine but I can't be sure. I don't have the wiring diagram at hand now but don't remember it or the Universal parts manual referencing any Cole Hersee part number or providing a schematic that would lead to the 24103 preheat solenoid you mention.  Can you tell me where you got that information? Meanwhile, I will have a look at the 24103 on the Cole Hersee website.

Steve, since I wrote the paragraph above you have messaged me that page 24 of the Service Manual has a schematic of the solenoid and warned that someone might have put the Cole Hersee 24059 preheat solenoid aboard Hali by mistake.  I will follow this up but thought I should post this warning now so that anyone who is reading this thread is on notice to be wary of using the 24059 solenoid.

Regards and thanks again.




Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Michael on June 25, 2007, 08:26:20 AM
Steve:

Thanks for your private message.  I responded to it but as my response to you did not appear in my outbasket messages I am not sure that it went to you.  Anyway, as this discussion might have some utility to others, I will continue it here.

The Universal Service Manual I have is Publication No. 200554, 1st edition, January, 2001. (This may itself be something of a problem as of course the engine aboard Hali is of 1996 or 1997 vintage. However, except as noted below, I think the diagram is accurate to my boat's engine.)  There is nothing on page 24 of this edition to do with the preheat solenoid.  However, there is a DC electrical system wiring diagram (Wiring Diagram #200360 - Catalina Yachts) and DC electrical system wiring schematic #200360 - Catalina Yachts on pages 96 and 97.  The drawing of the preheat solenoid in this particular wiring diagram accords with the Cole Hersee #24059 preheat solenoid but not with the Cole Hersee 24103 as you have described it. (As mentioned in my private message to you, unfortunately the Cole Hersee website does not have a CAD diagram for the 24103.) 

The Catalina Owner's Manual that came with Hull #1352 also contains a wiring diagram that is consistent with a preheat solenoid wired like the Cole Hersee #24059 but not consistent with the Cole Hersee 24103 as you have described it.

Accordingly, I wonder whether there was a change in the wiring diagram and type of preheat solenoid between a wiring diagram you have and the ones I have?

Also, as noted in my private message, the new Cole Hersee preheat solenoid #24059 that I am now using in replacement for a Cole Hersee of the same part number that seemed to come as original equipment aboard Hali is a continuous duty solenoid whereas the 24103 is an intermittent duty solenoid that the Cole Hersee website indicates is on for 10 seconds and off for 20 minutes.  I don't know enough about these devices to be able to draw a firm conclusion from this information but it does raise a question in my mind as to whether the 24103 is the correct solenoid for use.

The 2001 wiring diagram has two interesting differences from the way the preheat solenoid and electric lift pump circuits seemed to be wired on my 1997 engine and I believe these differences are also differences from the wiring diagram in the Catalina owner's manual that accompanied the boat. (I say believed because I don't have that wiring diagram before me at the moment. I will correct this post if on seeing it it turns out to be different than represented here.)

First, in the 2001 wiring diagram there is a grounding wire shown attached to the "I" terminal of the preheat solenoid (which is something that we have now added to Hali - although we have also moved to the S terminal of the preheat solenoid the 10 amp circuit breaker and the two wires that connect to it that come from, respectively, the P terminal of the alarm buzzer and the electric lift pump/oil pressure circuit.

Secondly, the lift pump electrical circuit is shown on the 2001 diagram in two ways.  There is a drawing of a lift pump attached to the circuit by  dashed lines and labelled "early models".  There is also a drawing of a lift pump directly attached to the circuit.  The only substantial difference between these drawings of the lift pump and its connection to the circuit seems to be that the "new" pumps have a grounding wire whereas (I think) the old lift pump (as was the case with the original lift pump on Hali) had a grounded metal case.

Steve, would you be able to email me (mjm@mjmacleod.com) a copy of the wiring diagram from page 24 of your service manual and a copy of the frontispiece of your manual so I know which manual you are working from?

Ron Hill has suggested I contact the Westerbeke service manager about another way of wiring the fuel pump and glow plugs circuit.  Although I don't think I am going to re-wire the circuit as Ron suggested (for reasons explained above), when I do get to the bottom of this solenoid/fuel pump wiring question I would like to try to write it up reasonably accurately for the sake of others similarly afflicted.  So I might contact Westerbeke to discuss uncertainties and find out whether they have had others with these problems. (Their putting a ground onto the I terminal of the preheat solenoid suggests to me that they do know about this issue.  But I am curious to know whether they are aware of the possibility of current leakage back into the preheat solenoid and glow plugs from the fuel pump/low oil pressure switch circuit and whether they, like Steve, do not see that to be a potential problem.)

Meanwhile, input from anyone with thoughts on this wiring question would be welcome.

Regards.

Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 25, 2007, 09:13:57 AM
Unfortunately, the default setting for the outbox is "off," you need to check the box to keep the message in your outbox.

FWIW, the solenoid Projects article mentions a simple Ford-type solenoid which we have been using for the past nine years with no faults.  Ron Hill suggests a "marine" grade, but our "auto" grade is still working.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: sedelange on June 25, 2007, 04:14:55 PM
Michael,

The manual I was using is the one on this website, http://www.c34ia.org/manuals/Operators-Manual-2of2.pdf  (http://www.c34ia.org/manuals/Operators-Manual-2of2.pdf) .  The same wiring diagram 200360 is on page 25 and schematic 200360 is on page 26 (pages 5 and 6 of the pdf).  The schematic shows the "S" and "I" terminal, "I" being the one that is connected to switch contacts when the relay is energized.  If you connected the fourth terminal of the 24059 relay to the resistor and circuit breaker you would probably not energize the relay thus not providing power to the glow plugs and the fuel pump would likely only start running after you were able to obtain oil pressure.  Starting would be intermittent, at best.  

Here is a link to a Cole Hersee relay catalog showing the internal wiring schematics.  http://www.colehersee.com/pdf/master_cat/e_solenoid.PDF (http://www.colehersee.com/pdf/master_cat/e_solenoid.PDF)

As I indicated in an email and as Stu pointed out, most Ford start relays are wired like this.  You were also correct that this is an intermittent duty relay, but it has a 750 amp rating, well in excess of anything the glow plugs would draw.


Steve DeLange
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 25, 2007, 04:19:08 PM
Intermittent duty means you use it once in awhile.  Continuous duty means that it stays "energized" for long periods of time.  The listed load is how many amps it can carry, not for how long.

If the solenoid has to stay ON for a long period of time, I suggest redesigning, or rewiring, so that it only has to click once to energize what the service is, and then shut off when it's mission has been accomplished.  This is how our simple glow plug solenoid works.

[added 5/10/2102]  IMPORTANT Please see the note on the Critical Upgrades topic about these solenoids from Ray Irvine:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.30.html

Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Michael on June 25, 2007, 05:05:38 PM
Stu and Steve:

Thank you for persisting.

More later from here if it seems that it will shed light.

Regards.



Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 27, 2007, 08:57:20 PM
FUEL PUMP OPERATION

Michael, I’ve been giving this thread and your descriptions a lot of thought and offer the following comments on some of the issues and your potential conclusions discussed earlier.

I believe a diode is unnecessary.

There is a wiring diagram discrepancy between the two drawings that you should resolve first.

You can’t kill electrical gremlins with luck. :D

Old metal fuel pumps do NOT have grounded cases.  See Napa electronic pumps FLIX post, here:http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2515.0 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2515.0)  The ground wire is shown in the picture and discussed in the text, reply #3.

Four family simplicity:  It occurs to me that your goal is to get things working, and that nothing would change in terms of operation IF your fuel pump was operated all the time from the just the ignition switch in the on position.  Wiring changes at and to the cockpit panel are not required.  You could either figure it out with what you have, or change it.  Your choice.

Universal Manual Starting Instructions:  Tonywright’s post in reply # 38 about the Universal manual requiring holding the glow plugs via the keyswitch spring position ON while hitting the start button MEANS that there is a continuous draw on the battery bank from BOTH the glow plugs AND the starter motor.  Our C34-group experience is that this INHERENTLY leads to tough & rough starting.  The Mark I “trick” has always been to RELEASE the glow plug (button in our Mark I case) BEFORE the start button, so that both heavy amperage draws are NOT on at the same time.  There is no reason to need to do what Universal suggests, regardless of how your starting sequence is wired.  This is one of the reasons that I cautioned earlier that new designs that complicate originally simple operations are not necessarily “improvements.”  What you can try if you choose to is to release the glow plug spring setting on the key switch, wait a bit, and then hit the start button.  All this means is that, as “possibly” wired, the fuel pump will only be off for that short amount of time between releasing the spring glow plug and hitting the start button.  It should make NO difference in starting operation, since the fuel will “be there” from the pump operating during the period you are holding the glow plugs, and once started the fuel pump will begin operation once the oil pressure switch closes upon engine start.  I believe this “duplex” newer wiring setup to the pump is an unnecessary complication to what used to be a simple startup procedure.  Interrupting the fuel pump between the glow plugs off and oil pressure switch close is unnecessary, since the fuel pump and oil pressure have nothing to do with each other.  On the Mark Is, the pump runs when the ignition switch is in the ON position, runs all the time.  Why stop it?  If the oil pressure is low, it doesn’t matter if the fuel pump is running or not.

Power to Fuel Pump: Michael, in your reply # 37 you wrote: “…(I say energized rather than operating because there will be cases when the pump is receiving an electrical current but is not operating because the fuel line pressure is such that no demand for fuel is being made - that is, I guess, above about 4 pounds per square inch gauge pressure on these Posi-Flo pumps which are rated for 1.5 to 4 PSI.)”  That doesn’t seem to be the case.  IF the pump is receiving “…an electrical current…” it will be on.  I read the referenced sources on the bio-diesel referenced website, but do not believe that EITHER the original metal Facet pumps OR the new plastic pumps are “on demand” pumps.  They’re either on or off.  When pumping, the unused fuel is returned to the tank via the fuel return line, whether the engine is on or off.

Grounding & Wiring Diagrams:  Continuing with comments on your # 37:  Grounding should have nothing to do with your “issue.”  It appears that it is one of significant differences between the two quoted Catalina wiring diagrams, and a POSITIVE-side  power issue, unless, of course, your grounds aren’t solid.  You wrote: “Now the problem as it is theorized to be is that because the electrical circuit ("preheat solenoid activating circuit") that energizes the preheat solenoid (which acts as a switch to close the glow plugs circuit) runs through the electric lift fuel pump (a clever way to make sure that when the glow plugs are energizing fuel is also being delivered by the lift pump to the fuel injection pump for onward delivery to the cylinders when the engine cranks), if the lift pump electronics are making and breaking they make and break the preheat solenoid activating circuit with the result that the preheat solenoid does not close - or closes intermittently…”  What’s so “clever?“  If the pump was ON from the ignition switch, it wouldn’t need to be connected to the solenoid at all, and there wouldn’t have to be two wires to the pump.  And, it is entirely useless to have the pump running before the engine starts, so why have it "linked" to the glow plugs at all?  Although "our" design does have it run then anyway, right?   Following your logic would mean that the lift pump is OFF just when you need it: when the engine starts!!  Think about it.  And, based on the wiring diagrams noted in your later post # 47, that simply does NOT seem to be the case.    The power to the solenoid simply is NOT  shown on either diagram to “run through” the fuel pump: the circuit goes FROM the keyswitch TO the solenoid and then TO the fuel pump.  The fuel pump has two feeds on the page 25 diagram:  one from the solenoid when the keyswitch is being held to energize the glow plugs via the “S“ terminal of the keyswitch, and second, from the “I” terminal of the keyswitch when the engine starts and the oil switch closes.  On the page 26 diagram, the glow plugs and the fuel pump are in PARALLEL, on both pages 25 & 26 the fuel pump and oil pressure switch are in SERIES.  BECAUSE the fuel pump is in SERIES with the oil pressure switch, the pump will NOT run until the engine starts unless it is wired with the double inputs on page 25.  On that page 25, the pump WILL run when the glow plugs (solenoid) is held ON with the “S” spring on the keyswitch. You are correct in your summary, but my point is that the wiring just doesn’t go THROUGH the fuel pump to the solenoid, it runs FROM the solenoid TO the pump when the keyswitch is held on.  It’s a subtle, but important difference, because I see no way that your theory that the pump is affecting the glow plugs should apply.  You can easily TEST my understanding of the circuits:  either disconnect the fuel pump or close the circuit breaker, if there is one, from the solenoid to the pump.  

Wiring Diagram Discrepancies: These are TWO serious discrepancies between the two wiring diagrams. (1) Circuit breakers:  Page 25 of the wiring diagram shows the circuit breaker downstream of the solenoid TO the pump.  Page 26 shows a circuit breaker between the oil pressure switch and the resistor to ground.   (2) Connections to the pump from the Positive (+) Wiring Side:  Page 25 shows the wiring from the downstream side of the solenoid to the + side of the fuel pump, while page 26 shows the wiring from the end run of the glow plugs to the (-) side of the pump.   They are numbered the same (#200360) but they are very different re: the pump operation.  On the page 26 drawing the pump simply should not start from anything BUT the oil pressure switch. Follow both the positive wiring TO the pump and the grounds from and around it.   You need to find out what you have on YOUR boat before you go adding stuff.  I would find that out first if it was my boat.

Another thought:  maybe the circuit breaker, if there is one, is faulty.  This has happened before.

Lift pumps:  the reason they call them that is because on the C30s and C36s, the fuel tank is well below the engine.  As you may already know, our tanks, when at least half full, have been reported to siphon to provide fuel even if the pump is broken or off.  If your fuel tank is full, you can perform my suggested test.

Sequence of Operations:  I agree with your presentation of the operations based on the page 25 ONLY wiring diagrams and your field experience:  keyswitch held to energize glow plugs means the fuel pump runs, release spring loaded keyswitch, pump stops, start engine, pump runs when the oil pressure switch closes.  However, IF you follow Tony’s post, item 4 above, then the pump would continue to run since you are “supposed to” hold the keyswitch (and keep energizing the glow plugs) until you start the engine.  What I suggested too indirectly in my # 39 was that the Mark I sequence is simpler:  the fuel pump always runs when the keyswitch is on; the Mark I keyswitch is ONLY for on or off, since we have separate glow plug and start buttons; turn keyswitch on - pump runs - hold glow plug button in - pumps continues to run - release glow plug button (we have a solenoid we installed ourselves since the Mark Is  with M25s don’t come with one) - pump runs - hit start button.  It’s simpler, and is what I was suggesting you consider.  The short period of time that the pump is OFF in the page 25 ONLY wiring diagram, and its dependency on the oil pressure switch, I personally believe, is meaningless.  Page 26 operationally is NOT what you describe.

Suggestions:  If you agree with that, then you really don’t have to do anything with the wiring to the cockpit control panel, assuming you‘ve resolved the wiring diagram discrepancies noted in my item 6 above: do two things all “underneath“ and not in the stanchion to the cockpit panel -- disconnect the wire from the solenoid output to the fuel pump [correction](per page 25 wiring diagram which shows two wires into the pump vs. page 26 which shows only one) and jumper the oil pressure switch so that the pump always runs when the keyswitch is ON (the oil pressure switch will still provide an alarm).

Options: OTOH, if everything works with my suggestions, then you‘d be changing the engine wiring “design“ retroactively to the M25 - simpler is sometimes better.  If it works for you, either way, quit while you‘re ahead, but at least you‘ll KNOW what you have.

Last: If all THAT doesn’t work, you DO have a FUEL problem.

This has been fascinating, but we still have to remember that the whole purpose of your  part of this thread was hard engine starting.  I do not believe the fuel pump has anything ELECTRICALLY to do with your starting problems (other than swapping out the fuel pump again, or disconnecting it as a test as I‘ve suggested to get to the heart of your issue).  Perhaps it would be helpful to go back up to Mike Stimmler’s original issues on this thread and what he did to resolve HIS problem.  Or, wait a few seconds between draining the battery bank with the glow plugs before you start.  Also suggest advancing the throttle a bit as previously suggested.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: sedelange on June 27, 2007, 11:30:38 PM
Stu:
I don't think there is a discrepancy in the two diagrams, only a difference in their presentation.  One is a wiring diagram while the other is a schematic, with positive on the left and ground on the right for simplified circuit analysis. 

I am wondering if simplification might be the answer for Micheal, at least in the short term to get the engine operating and for diagnosis.  Perhaps he should add a jumper wire to the fuel pump to insure its operation and using another larger wire with a clip on the end to power the glow plugs directly.  The glow plug jumper would have to be removed by hand after the appropriate heating time.  While crude, they would bypass the control circuits long enough to test the engine.  I would also suggest a temporary or permanent remote starter switch as shown in the projects. 

It seems boats are notorious for having poor connections.  During my refit I am replacing all of the wiring to the engine, because I found the excess harness just coiled under the aft berth.  The several feet of extra wire surely couldn't help the voltage drop that is always a problem.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: tonywright on June 28, 2007, 06:08:14 AM
I defer to those with a far better understanding of engines and electrical cicuits than I. But Stu, is it possible that Universal assumes that linking the fuel pump to the oil pressure sensor means that they intend to starve the engine of fuel when the oil pressure falls to a dangerously low level, in an attempt to slow down or stop the engine?

Tony
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 28, 2007, 09:27:28 AM
Tony, Steve, Michael, and others, I've posted a correction in my reply above in red which I only noted late last night, sorry about that.

1.  Linking fuel "starvation" in case of low oil pressure:  While that may have been a "design intent" it just doesn't work in our C34 boats with more than a half full tank of fuel.  In any event, the low oil pressure alarm circuit should do that, if it was designed with that intent.  If conceived that way, there simply should have been a fuel cutoff if the oil pressure sensor "popped."  Diesels need only two things to operate: air and fuel.  Nothing will "slow them down."

2.  Steve, there is a discrepancy.  I do understand the difference between the diagrams, but the circuit breakers ARE different, and the wiring on the positive side vs. the negative side of a pump and the glow plugs are also different.  Granted the glow plugs could use the same negative, BUT there simply is NO second positive input to start the pump on page 26.  None.  Perhaps my correction, above, makes the point more clearly.  Page 25 is an "installation" drawing, while page 26 is a schematic.  They should agree on the basic PATH of the electricity, but they do NOT to the pump: just follow the wires on the two drawings.

Again, if the two drawings are different, and they are, then Michael should do some research on his wiring and decide what he thinks is appropriate for his boat and his understanding of the issue.  I agree that a short term simplification, if ONLY for diagnosing the issue, would be what I would do.  However, I do not consider them to be "control" circuits, which are usually different than basic "power" circuits.  In this case, the power to the pump.  The basic point of my analysis is that the "theorized" interaction of the fuel pump affecting the solenoid just shouldn't be the case.

What has also occurred to me is that this is one of hundreds of boats with this circuiting.  Sure, it could be an inherent design over-complication, but we have to ask ourselves: "Why is Michael the ONLY one reporting this?"  when there are hundreds of boats out there with this design.  My reply was based on, as Steve agrees, simplification, for at least testing purposes, not trying to say that all M35XPB engine starting systems are faulty.  I just wouldn't do it that way, although if I owned as nice a boat as that, I wouldn't mess with it too much.  But I would definitely start testing what I had before theorizing and adding diodes.

I've offered this to help Michael analyze his starting problem.  It's still his boat and his decisions to make.  Ron suggested he call Joe at Westerbeke.  If Michael follows my presentation,a nd agrees with it or not, it could be a useful point of discussion for him with Joe.  That's a phone call that Michael and Joe would need to have, and I think we'd all be interested in the results of both that and the solution to Michael's starting problems.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: tonywright on June 28, 2007, 12:27:16 PM
Thanks for the clarification Stu.

To introduce a possible red herring: I did notice quite a big difference between Mike's engine and mine. The heat exchanger is completely different. The oil filler is aft, rather than forward, the air filter is enclosed rather than open, etc.  It it possible that he has an M35A?

Tony
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 28, 2007, 04:24:46 PM
Good question, Tony, but his profile state M35B.  I just noticed that, and went back and aded M25 to my profile.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Ron Hill on June 28, 2007, 05:15:59 PM
Guys : I believe that all of the MKIIs have a M35B engine.  Maybe there is some difference between the early and later M35Bs and the M35BCs?   
The simple solution is the by pass all of that automatic stuff and wire the glow plugs and fuel pump direct.  Easily done and you know what you've got.  But call Westerbeke first and make sure that you're not introducing some more problems.   :think
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 29, 2007, 09:46:15 AM
Another interesting sidebar to this whole "when does the fuel pump run?" issue just occurred to me after stumbling over this thread: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=64.0 or any other of the many fuel bleeding posts.

IF the fuel pump ONLY works when the glow plugs are held on with the spring switch OR when the engine is running, bleeding the fuel system is a real PITA.  To successfully bleed the system, as discussed here and finally summarized by Ken Heyman (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2884.0), it's MUCH easier to run the fuel pump without the engine on, and why would you want to have to energize the glow plugs when you bleed the engine?

Another one of those UNFORESEEN CIRCUMSTANCES and unintended consequences as a result of a "design improvement" that makes things worse, not better.

Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Ed Shankle on July 02, 2007, 08:30:10 AM
There must be variations of the ignition switch. On mine, when I click it on, it holds that position (key is at a diagonal), the fuel pump engages and I can go below to bleed the system. The glow plugs engage only when the key is turned all the way to horizontal, and must be held in that position. Releasing it, it goes back to the diagonal and then the starter button is pushed in to start the engine.

Ed
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: John Sheehan on July 02, 2007, 09:18:34 AM
Stu,

I have made up a jumper to run the fuel pump when changing the filters and it works quite well since I can control everything while at the engine.  Still not sure why in the C-34 application they think shutting the fuel pump off with low oil pressure would be a safety device if your fuel tank is over half full.  Probably just a generic system that may work for other boats or applications.

John
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Ron Hill on July 02, 2007, 02:43:12 PM
John : You are correct as the Universal engines are made for many many differant boats. 
The C34 just happens to be one of the VERY few boats that has the fuel tank mounted higher than the engine!!   :->
Title: UNFORESEEN CIRCUMSTANCES II
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 12, 2007, 07:08:34 PM
Continuing from my reply #59 on page 4:

I was reading through some older boating magazines and came across a Cruising World June 2007 article by Steve D'Antonio, page 92, "Bleed Out the Air."

One excerpt: "On some engines, the electric pump only runs when the glow plugs are operated or when the engine is actually running, so in this case the pump may have be temporarily hot-wired."

This is nonsense, of course, because if that's what you have to do with your electric fuel pump to simply bleed the engine, you're really stuck when you have to do it and conditions aren't "favorable."  

If you have to do this, do it PERMANENTLY.

Which was the whole purpose of the earlier discussions about this subject on the last couple of pages of this topic.  What Universal has done is simply DUMB for bleeding engines.  I'll also bet their answer is the engines are self-bleeding.  If so, that's good.  If not...

Further, Steve's article goes on to discuss injection pumps, and "...Most are equipped with bleed screws, and thus the procedure is the same.  Then you must bleed the high pressure fuel system, which is done by loosening the union nuts between the top of the fuel injectors and the fuel line..."

DON'T DO THIS ON A UNIVERSAL ENGINE.  YOU DO NOT NEED TO DO THIS.

The amount of claptrap that comes with sailing rags gags me.

What you NEED to do is learn how to bleed YOUR engine.  I recognize that sail rags are "generic" but NOWHERE is there ANY need for our engines to have to crack the most basic connection (fuel lines at injectors) that should NEVER need to be touched for simple bleeding of the engine, which is linked in my Reply #59 above to Ken Heyman's excellent post (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2884.0).
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Michael on August 29, 2007, 08:30:09 PM
Stu, Ron, Steve, Tony, and others:

Many thanks for your follow-up posts on this topic, and my apologies for not responding earlier.  I've been out of the loop for more than a month and saw your postings for the first time only today.

By way of short update, I can say, with more relief than you can know, that Hali's engine has been starting first time every time since the first part of the fix, when we disconnected the oil low pressure switch electrical circuit from the starboard - on Hali anyway - side low power solenoid terminal and grounded that terminal.  And the engine has continued to start perfectly since we completed the fix (by connecting the oil low pressure switch electrical circuit, through a diode, to the port-side low power terminal on the solenoid).

You may recall that the diode (to prevent current from flowing from the oil low pressure switch electrical circuit to the solenoid terminal but not vice versa) was hit upon as a way to prevent the possibility of current from the oil low pressure switch electrical circuit from energizing the solenoid, and hence the glow plugs, during ordinary engine operation (instead of only when the keyswitch is turned past "on" so as specifically to energize the solenoid and glow plugs).

Although I am writing this without the benefit of a wiring diagram before me and from hazy memory, I think anyone reading this who might be thinking of attempting a similar fix -- and I note that some earlier postings suggest other, perhaps better, fixes - should ensure that they keep their diesel fuel tank topped up if they leave the oil low pressure switch electrical circuit detached as I did.  My recollection is that the fuel pump is wired into that circuit for ordinary operation (that is, for operation other than when the glow plugs are specifically energized by overturning the key switch), so without a fullish fuel tank there could be insufficient fuel pressure during ordinary operation to raise the fuel to the injector pump.  (I will correct this paragraph if, on revisiting Hali or the wiring diagram, it seems my memory has failed here.)

Thanks again.

Michael
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Stu Jackson on October 16, 2007, 12:31:32 PM
More info on a similar problem is here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=3925.0

Thanks, Mike & JoAnne and all of you for updating your experiences.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem??
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 16, 2008, 09:52:11 AM
Found another post on a similar problem on a C310 with a M25XP.

The problem as described: 

Well Finally closed on our 2001 310 --  We’re very excited about it and this past weekend we brought it up from Mayo (South River) to the Elk River on the Chesapeake. For the most part, the 60mn trip went very smooth, with an overnight and sunset at Still Pond. We motored most of the way in almost no apparent wind conditions. The only thing that was not good was the engine (M25XP) after 2-3 hours of running great at 2500RPM, it started to loose RPM and power for a few seconds and then recovered. It did this 3 or 4 times dropping to about 1200 each time, then ran another couple of hours great.
The second day we sailed in a wonderful N15-18 knots for about 3 hours until we got to the head of the Elk, then motored into the N/E wind, and again after about 30 minutes it did the same thing a few more times, but recovered fine for the remaining hour. When we did the boat inspection I noticed some water in the bottom of the separator. The owner must have drained the water out of the separator, and filled the tank for our use (Nice Guy) after we complained about the fact that the fuel cap was not tight, because it was clean. Unfortunately I had planed to suck the bottom of the tank out, before our trip, but now that the tank was brim full I did not want to make a mess by gaining direct access by removing the sending unit. During the incidents I did not notice any more water in the bowl, just some residual sediment.
Both filters were replaced in the spring.
So, the question is; if there is still water in the fuel than why am I not seeing more in the separator? Could it get through with out settling out, or is this not a fuel problem at all, as I'm suspecting.
Any comments would be welcome,
Thanks,
Tom

************************************************************
The solution: 

What's wrong when the buzzer doesn't sound
Well, the problem was the fuel pump not getting power.
-Fact, the “P” terminal of the buzzer within the control panel senses the voltage at the fuel pump. When +12v is not present at the fuel pump the buzzer sounds. This is the case when you first turn on the key switch because the low impedance of the fuel pump is actually providing the ground for the buzzer circuit.

The Fuel pump receives its power through (2) different circuits:
1)When the key switch is turned all the way (in the spring loaded position) the “S” terminal provides current from the battery through the pre-heat solenoid coil to ground. As a result the contacts close on the solenoid and provide current to the glow plugs, and also provide current to the fuel pump. (thus the clicking sound)

When the key switch is then returned to the “on” position and the push button start switch is made which engages the starter and the engine starts the fuel pump get its power from a different circuit.

2)Once the engine has started the oil pressure switch closes (> 5psi) this now completes the circuit from the battery through the “I” terminal of the key switch (“on” position) through the oil pressure switch and then through the fuel pump to ground.

The source of the open circuit was a corroded shovel connector on top of the engine that supplies the current to the fuel pump from both sources. This is a stupid place to put a connector of this type. It is exposed to significant temperature flux and corrosive fumes. I cleaned up the terminal and all works fine. I will cut out this connector and solder for a permanent fix.

I sucked the tank out from the lower bottom corner, fuel was clean.
As long as the fuel tank is more than " full it will gravity feed and run fine with no fuel pump running, but when the level goes below that the fuel lift pump must do it’s job and push the fuel.
So, if your buzzer is weak or not sounding, than check this shovel connector, it is probably corroded and not conducting, or the circuit is open somewhere else.
Tech support @ Catalina did not have a clue about what the system was telling me when the buzzer doesn’t sound when it should!!! This is obviously a diagnostic feature that was designed in that they are not even aware of. Also the circuit diagram supplied in the original manual is incorrect. It has no connection to the “S” terminal of the key switch? The diagram is also labeled “Yanmar Trapezoid” at the bottom when a Universal engine was used? I will try to draw a composite circuit diagram, as currently only the separate panel and engine diagrams exist which doesn’t correlate properly.
Hopefully this lesson learned will help someone in the future.
Tom

The whole thread can be found here (don't know if it will always be there, hence the copying of the text above): http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/pviewall.tpl?fno=499.154&uid=73200280089&sku=2008246194331.13

Tom's solution section reflects my earlier discussion of why it makes little sense to me to have the newer engine electrical wiring system turn the fuel pump off when the spring key switch goes back to its on position after the glow plugs warm up.  But. like almost everything else electrical, it's the connections.   :D

Tom's description of the operation is a bit off, since the fuel pump actually stops when the key is brought back from the spring (glow plug) position and only starts up again when the oil pressure sensor is satisfied, not just "when the engine starts."

The wiring diagrams discussed are linked to their sources in Reply #49 above in page 4 of this thread.


Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem?? M35 Engines & Fuel Pump Wiring
Post by: Ron Hill on July 08, 2011, 05:10:33 PM
Ed : Sorry I missed your post.  Your key switch is mounted "cockeyed".  
The normal mounting is:
In the OFF position the key should be straight up  In the ON position the key should point at
the 1 O'clock position.  In the SPRING loaded position (glow plugs) the key should point at the 2 O'clock position.
To change the mounting positions is easy - loosen the nut on the outside of the engine instrument panel that holds the key switch in place.  Turn the key switch until it's oriented correctly and re tighten that nut!  Be careful or you can scar the panel face.

Most all of the cylindrical electric fuel pumps have the case as the ground. 
If your pump (square or cylindrical) only has one wire the case is definitely the only ground. 
In another post I point out that if there is two wires the ground (- black wire) is then connected to the bolt that holds the pump case to the engine for ground - so the case is also actually grounded (but not for the pump actuation/operation).   

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem?? M35 Engines & Fuel Pump Wiring
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 08, 2011, 06:55:14 PM
This is one of my favorite "unforeseen consequences" topics, and I have listed it in the "Electrical Systems 101" thread.

I have seen, on many other boards, this acronym: RTFM.

It means: Read the Funny Manual.

The purpose of the earlier posts on this topic advise that the WIRING DIAGRAMS provided in the two DIFFERENT diagrams from the manufacturer, are questionable, because they really ARE different (Page 25 & Page 26).  And the cockpit panels and, perhaps, if not really, the key switches, on the Mark II boats are significantly different than those on our old Mark I boats.  I do NOT have a spring loaded key switch on my Mark I boat.  Period.

So, do yourself a favor, go look at them and see what you have on YOUR boat and simply work from there.  I'm not telling you what to do, and in this case not even what I've done on MY boat, since I don't have this "problem."  You may not even have this issue with your M35 engines.

But here's the "BUT":  You MAY sometime in the future, even tomorrow, and it would be helpful to you to have this information in your "back pocket" in case it ever comes up.

Indeed, Dave Spencer had JUST THIS PROBLEM on his boat, and we recorded it on "Critical Upgrades":  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg41829.html#msg41829
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem?? M35 Engines & Fuel Pump Wiring
Post by: Ron Hill on July 09, 2011, 01:06:33 PM
Guys : Stu is correct about RTFM!!!

The engine instrument panels regarding the glow plug switch's are differant on the 1986 and 1987 C34s as they have a push button switch and are not incorporated in the key switch (spring loaded) position as the later C34s have.  The 12 O'clock position on all C34s should be the OFF position and 1 O'clock should be the ON position.

There are numerous other changes in the engine instrument panels over the years, so that's why it's very important that you read your friggen instruction book.  The best example: is the time the glow plugs are engaged - keep the glow plugs ON for the amount of time specified for the M25/XP engine on a M35B engine and you'll burn them up!!

[added 5/10/2012 - Stu]  Ron's right.  See the Critical Upgrades topic, where Ray Irvine notes the difference between continuous and intermittent duty solenoids:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg41829.html#msg41829
  
That's why it's so important when you ask a question that you list your hull production year and engine model.  A few thoughts
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem?? M35 Engines & Fuel Pump Wiring
Post by: darkandstormy on August 16, 2013, 03:43:59 PM
Stumbled across these posts while troubleshooting our Universal 5411 and just wanted to THANK everyone for the information.  Our problem was solved by changing both glow plugs.  Using your recommendation to go to Kubota tractor supply was awesome - saved us $100+ and our friend Amos says she sounds sexy!!  After 3 years of hard starting, she starts right up the first time!!   Thanks again!  Appreciate this discussion board.
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem?? M35 Engines & Fuel Pump Wiring
Post by: Stu Jackson on August 16, 2013, 06:48:59 PM
We're glad you found us, welcome, and glad we could help.

??? - How did you find us - ???
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem?? M35 Engines & Fuel Pump Wiring
Post by: Ron Hill on August 17, 2013, 12:14:01 PM
Stumbled : I'm also curious like Stu on how you found us?? 

Right now as I'm typing this I see there are 18 guests looking at our C34 message board!!
Title: Re: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem?? M35 Engines & Fuel Pump Wiring
Post by: Stu Jackson on August 17, 2013, 02:00:47 PM
The reason I asked is that I send a lot of folks our way because I provide links back to topics here on our C34 board when I visit a lot of other boating forums.