Catalina 34

Went to the boat after work tonight for a quick Bourbon and water before heading home and found there was no ice. The fridge had quick sometime since the weekend and everything was warm and melted.

Fridge is and older Adler.

I checked the wiring. A little corroded. Trimmed and cleaned, but still had nothing. Fuse at the panel and on the control unit are good.

Testing voltage showed 12 V at the control unit when the wires were disconnected from the control unit, but when they were hooked up they read zero.

Lines also tested 12 V at the panel, and I had good conductivity down both lines.

Any thoughts? Anyone swap out the control unit with the $200 unit Defender sells?

Doug,
You didn't mention the stat, did you check to make sure it wasn't accidentally turned off and it is working properly?  It happened to me one time and after trouble shooting for an hour I checked the stat........ and yep, it was off.   I am sure you are hoping it is something that simple.
Steve

Was the muffin fan at the compressor/condenser coil working?  I've swapped out two of these in the past eight years.  They cost $45, way less than replacing the compressor.

Doug : The only trouble that I've had with my unit was when I accidentally disconnected the thermostat 2 wire connection near the hull just aft of the rear water tank (my compressor unit is on the aft starboard side).  See if that connection is good.

This is an old contact, but for a rebuilt ECU try Miller Marine (904)388-3690.  Talk to Linda or Al.   

Also, I never let my boat connected with the fridge ON, unless I'm on the boat.  Just think of the wear and tear that you are putting on the batteries, charger and the fridge unit!!  I usually arrive at the boat with a small ice chest with ice and a cold beer.  Much simpler that letting every thing running ( and wearing) with the threat of a lightening strike/power surge on a near by power line.  A thought.   :wink: 

One of the references is: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=980.0

Try searches on refrigeration, fridge, Adler Barbour, etc.

Lots of reading and ideas.

If you send the control unit to AB, they'll test it for you.  They'll also walk you through a simple ohm meter test you can do on it.

Sept. 2014 - They stopped doing this, but Richard Kollmann will. http://www.kollmann-marine.com/Performance%20problems.aspx (http://www.kollmann-marine.com/Performance%20problems.aspx) - Stu

Lesson learned:

I tested the wiring, fan, switch, and everything else.  I'd get power to the unit, but once I put a load on it (connect fan or compressor) the power would drop from 12 V down to about 2 V, followed by a slow recovery.

When testing the switch and fuse holder on the panel I dropped the fuse. Was easier to put a new one in than find the old one.

Yep. It was the fuse.  :x

Of course, I had visually inspected the fuses when it first happened, and they were fine.  I've never see a fuse do this: It looks good, was intact, and tests full continuity. But run even a minor load through it and it looses most of its conductivity.

System works fine, but I have another question: The fan is blowing towards the compressor, not the condenser. In other words it draws Air through the coils and blows towards the pump.  Seems to me it should be blowing the other way. I can't reverse the fan electrically, and it's been hooked up that way since I got the boat. The fan is from radio Shack so it's a previous owner fix.

Which direction is the air flow on an unmodified factory unit?

Doug : I'm not on the boat so I'm not sure which way the fan should blow. 
However, the compressor does get very warm so it may not be a bad idea to pull air thru the condenser coils and blow it toward the compressor. 
Call Adler Barbour and ask them.   :wink:

Just to fill in the blanks - I did put in the defender control unit and it works great.  I've also had to replace two thermostats over 9 years as they corrode into non function.

Doug -

I was the one to wire that fan, it was broken when I bought the boat, my first repair.  I do recall some issue installing it one direction over the other, but thought it a temporary fix . That Radio Shack fan was not completely compatible, I intended to find the proper fan, since that one draws twice the AMPs as the original, and probably blows too hard.  My search for the right fan was fruitless, and that Radio Shack fan turned out to do the job.

Glad to hear you are getting to the bottom of the wiring issues, replacing the charger, etc.  I fixed the running lights, that fan, replaced both heat gauge and sending unit, and some other minor things like the flourescent light in the head. Good job replacing the entire engine panel harness, taking out all that tape, the owner prior to me didn't do well back there.

I haven't looked at this board in a few years, but wondered about the old boat as I am re-writing the sales agreement, preparing to buy my next one - boatless for a year!  (Well, I'm 1/3 partner on a 26' racer, not the same.)  Glad you are enjoying.

Craig

The muffin fan we had is an NMB, Model 4710NL-04B-B30, 12V DC, 0.32A, DC brushless fan motor, Minebea Co. Ltd., Made in China.  Measures 4 3/4 inches square, holes are 4 inch on center.  No doubt could find a replacement at Radio Shack.

The fuse idea is very good, and I'm planning on replacing all of mine, including the one in the A/B unit.  Don't forget to change the panel fuse from the listed 15A on the panel to match the 10A in the A/B unit.

Doug, I feel your pain. As soon as I read your posting I was saying to myself "It's the fuse", having repeated your scenario myself at least once. Turns out Ohm's Law still works.... If you measure voltage until you add a load, it almost always means a bad connection, including a bad fuse.

The fan draws air through the evaporator and discharges it across the compressor as it comes from the factory. However, AB will tell you that it is OK to reverse the fan so that it blows the other way if that allows you to get the hot air away from the unit more effectively than with the factory configuration. Sometimes the factory configuration will draw cool air into a compartment, but without enough pressure to get the hot air out, and you end up getting a terrible heat rise in the compartment.

John

Another question about fridge operation:

I've noted that when either shorepower or alternator charging is not present, AND when the batteries ARE charged, our ammeter jumps to past 10 amp draw when we turn the fridge on.  Sometimes it goes back to rest at 5 amps, showing the fridge is on.  Sometimes is drops back to zero and the fridge isn't working.  Sometimes it doesn't jump and goes to 5 amps and the fridge is working. 

When shorepower or alternator charging IS present, when the fridge is turned on it just normally goes to its 5 amp draw and doesn't jump on the ammeter.

I am planning to replace the fuses as suggested in this thread, and to check all the wiring connections at both the panel and the unit.

Any observations on why the ammeter and the fridge might be doing this?

ok, my THEORY.  Every motor when it starts pulls an intial high amp load momentarily. When you're on batteries, the batteries may not react as fast to the high current demand as the charger can on shore power.

- Craig

Stu,

I'm not sure that I have a good complete explanation for what you are seeing, although I have some observations and maybe a related explanation.

All of the Adler Barbour compressors made before about 1998, give or take, had a very high starting current of 17 amps at a nominal 12 volts. The "newer" ones are started gently by a more gradual application of voltage to the motor, rather than the "slam" start used in the older units. When the source impedance of the voltage source is very low, as it would be with well changed batteries that are well connected to the load, the starting transient only lasts for a short period of time ( 100 milliseconds +/- ??? ), and then the motor comes up to speed quickly enough that the high current doesn't last long enough for an analog or sampled digital ammeter to ever register the current spike. This is apparently just what you are seeing when you have a charging source connected to the batteries ( i.e. - the alternator or shore power ), and is in fact what you should generally see with batteries only. However, the fact that you see the weird, somewhat erratic current demonstrations when there are no charging source sources applied to the batteries makes me suspect that the compressor is seeing a badly sagging voltage at times.

Since low voltage will make a DC motor draw more current, I suspect that the long-enough-to-see ammeter reading at about 10 amps is when the motor is unable to get up to speed enough to cause the motor current to decrease to the lower correct value associated with higher/normal operating speed. When the 10 amp reading is maintained and the fridge continues to operate, the compressor motor continues to see a low voltage. When it goes to 10 amps, but then comes up to 5 amps, the compressor motor slowly managed to get up to "normal" operating speed, and the current reduces appropriately. When it goes to 10 amps and then shuts down, you probably had a voltage present that was low enough that the built-in low voltage shut-off of the compressor controller shut it down. All of this is, of course, long distance educated guessing.

The short answer is that I think you have a connection problem that is minimized or eliminated when you have either of your charging sources applied to the DC bus. What you should be looking for is a wiring configuration where the charge sources are connected ( in either the ground or 12 volt side, or even both ) electrically "closer" to the feed points to the fridge than the basic battery feed point connections. The problem you are looking for is between the batteries and the charge source connection points in the DC distribution paths. The way to get started is to connect your digital volt meter between the battery terminals and their respective path ends right at the compressor feed terminals on the compressor "pallet", and look for voltage drops across the 12 volt path, and then the ground path.  Once you find an obviously large voltage drop, start moving your measurement point away from the battery end of the path and closer to the compressor. From what you are describing, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the drop is in only one feed line. The voltage drop should mostly go away by the time you reach the point where your charging sources connect along the paths. The internal fuse in the control unit or the fridge CB should be okay since they have to be down stream of the charge source connection points into the DC distribution busses.

Hope this gives you some place to start looking.

John

John was right, it's all in the connections. 

We researched the fridge issue described in my post above, where the fridge would pop the ammeter up and not work when there was evident battery voltage.  We, one by one, replaced the fuses, checked the connections and finally snaked a long pair of wires through the cockpit and saloon between the fridge connection and the electrical panel, connecting it to the output side of the switch and the fuse.  It finally worked.  We thought the problem was in the old wiring itself from this detective work.

So, we installed all new wiring from the fridge to the panel, under the aft cabin to the water heater (via the pull string left when we did our alternator regulator upgrade), across the cabin sole to the holding tank compartment and up to the panel.  We were absolutely amazed that the length of wire we cut for the temporary connection from the fridge to the panel (just to check out if it was the old wiring), was just perfect for that routing, not too long and certainly not too short.

So, we fired the new wiring up after installing the lug and connector at the panel ends, and...NADA!!!

I fiddled around with the jumper that went from the fuse to the input side of the switch and the connector at the fuse slid right off the wire!  It was the ONLY connection we DIDN'T check!  Drats.

So, we now have a new jumper and complete new wiring from the fridge to the panel.

Ron's right, all those old connectors are just a glitch waiting to happen.

Oh, the fridge is working now...

Moral of the story:  Listen to John's advice and CHECK EVERY CONNECTOR before pulling new wiring.

I'd have to disagree with the fuse theory! A fuse is either open or shorted. Depending on the type of fuse, rarely,you might have an intermittant open, but I'd bet some of my Caribbean rum that it was a bad fuse holder or the connection to the fuse or some type of oxidation to cause a high resistance.      :lol:

Stu,

Glad you found your root problem, even if was the circuitous route. On our previous '91 C34 and on the current '88 C34, I always start with the assumption that any electrical problems have a high probability of being solved at the electrical panel, or more specifically, on the back side of the electrical panel. The combination of bare, stiff, copper wire with short leads and poorly crimped push-on spade terminals with no strain relief just makes an awful combination. I am currently in the process of investigating several alternatives for a complete replacement of the distribution panel in Otra Vez. Needless to say, there will be no push-on spade terminals handling anything but signal level power, and all of the breakers will magnetic rather than thermal.

For troubleshooting in general, particularly with C34 electrical problems, I have to constantly keep reminding myself to never overlook the simplest thing that could be wrong, because it is often exactly what's wrong. Remember that "assume" spells "ass-u-me".

Enjoy your cold beer.

John

Following up on replies #12, #14, #15, & #17 above:

The new wiring worked for awhile.  Then recently I noticed the same "startup" problems.

Since we'd only abandoned, and not removed, the old wiring, I spent the weekend paralleling the wiring, both behind the panel and at the unit itself.

Seems that both the newer connections AND the now much increased wire sizing (with the old #10 and newer #12 wiring in parallel) have solved the problem, since even with "lower" voltage at the panel (see #12), whatever the voltage that is there is now, finally, getting all the way back to the fridge.

So, sometimes it's BOTH !  :D

Here's a picture of the three way connectors used.  After this picture was taken, I used Liquid Lectric Tape on the ends of each wire connection and the bodies of the connectors and then dressed the main wires.  Note the wires to the fridge were not connected to their posts when this picture was taken.  There's another three way on the + side behind the panel, and I just put a spade connector on the (-) and ran it to a post on the negative buss.

EDIT:  I've since replaced the three ways with term strips.

Fridge Follies & Radio Shack

The Radio Shack fan is:  4 inch 12 V DC fan  #2730238  all of $25, instead of $43!  It's a bit thicker than the old one, bought new longer machine screws and nuts - easy except for egtting out of the lazarrette :D

Had another non-start this morning at anchor.  First checked the fuse on the panel, OK, opened panel, John's STILL right::::the new connection "I" had made myself was bad, worked when I wiggled it.  Installed a new quik connect onto the spade on the back of the rocker switch, back in business.

Can't reinforce anymore than this that when it's electrical it's usually a connection!

I always crimp and solder.  The old belt and suspenders always seems to help.  A thought

September 9, 2014:  I eventually replaced the three way connectors with terminal strips at both ends.  Last week I ran yet another set of wires and replaced the old OEM wiring with this new wire, and also redid all the jumpers and connectors at the back of the electrical panel.  I also cleaned the 1-2-B switch studs and lugs.  I'll also be cleaning up up the wires at both the NDP and PDPs.  I'll also replace the two connecting wires from the main wires to the fridge itself.

Stu, I just couldn't help noticing that tomorrow (Sept 10) will be the 6th anniversary of your post noting that you had learned your lesson about always checking all the connections, and that your fridge was working again. Time has a way of getting away from us, doesn't it?

You did well to go all the way back to the distribution panel looking for problems. Since 6 years ago, I have had several of the original rocker switches cease to function under any load on my boat. This has happened most recently on the fresh water pump switch. I replaced the function of that switch with a much more robust toggle switch with screw terminals which I mounted in the outside edge of the distribution panel adjacent to the failed switch. Quite honestly, the panels on the earlier boats were awful! On my boat, there is a mismatch on several places between the push-on spade terminal sizing and the spade on the back of the switch: the switches had 3/16" wide spades, and the push-on receptacles were 1/4", sometimes with some extra mashing around on them to make them sort of stay on the switch spade.

Having said that, as long as you have completely replaced all of the wiring to the fridge, don't overlook that first possible culprit in the wiring chain, the switch.

On my ever-expanding boat project list is the complete replacement of the old distribution panel to achieve no push-on terminals anywhere, no wimpy switches, and no rat's nest of wires to the extent that is possible.

I hope your good work and dedication to the task is successful. Maybe on the 7th anniversary of this topic, you can happily report a year of reliable fridge operation  :clap

John- when I purchase my "new" 1990 C34 this year, I took a good look at the distribution panel and wiring and determined most had to go--while I still had some funds and energy left. I am glad I did. I am very happy with my new custom-configured Blue Sea 360 series panel. Meanwhile, hoping my old fridge hangs in there. After installing my below deck autopilot, I am not looking forward to opening everything up again in the aft cabin and lazarette to play with fridge!

Noah, very nice looking panel! I guess I should have a look at the 360 series as compared to the traditional gray panel series I have considered thus far. The 360 series looks like it has less wasted space.

Thanks for the heads up, and I truly realize how much you must be enjoying your new panel.

One reason it gives me more room is I relocated all battery selector switching/functions. The house bank switch is now at the battery box and the engine battery and energency combiner switches are in the after cabin.

Engine battery and emergency cross-connect switches

John Nixon is always right!!! :clap :clap :clap

It's the connections, stupid!  :abd:

So, after I put in the new wiring, redid the jumpers on the electrical panel, checked the voltages around the 1-2-B switch and the paddle switch and at the new terminal block connections, I planned my "Dumpster Diving Day" into the lazarette this afternoon.  I planned to replace the (+) and (-) wires from the terminal block in the lazarette to the fridge.  Since I'd replaced those #10 wires a few years ago, I figured they were OK.

The wires sure were.  But HUBRIS strikes again:  I pulled on the red one - tight; I pulled on the black one - Yikes!  It pulled right out.   :shock: :shock: :shock:

When I reported this to The Admiral when I got home this afternoon, she mentioned: "I'm surprised you didn't do that first."   :cry4`  Wish she'd been there... :D :D :D  Just to see the look on my face when it happened. :?

I had had all the "implements of destruction" out for replacing those two wires:  wire, ring terminals, wire cutter, wire stripper, terminal crimper, screwdrivers, wire ties, etc.   :thumb:

Put 'em all away.

Going sailing tomorrow, just to see if it works, ya know... :D :D :D

The first picture shows the old jumpers, notice the bare wire showing on the (+) to the right hand side of the bus - I replaced that one, among a few others, and the jumpers from the fridge swtich to the (+) bus.  At least it's dry with no corrosion.   :D  And at least it's behind the panel, NOT the fridge compressor!!! (which could use a cleaning, eh?)

John Nixon is always right!!! :clap :clap :clap

It's the connections, stupid!  :abd:

Stu:  :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

I think you may well have arrived at the end of the quest!  :clap :clap :clap  It is unfortunately true that until you have looked at every last possible connection issue, the job isn't done. I would be embarrassed to reveal how many times I have suckered myself to ass-u-me the I had considered everything that could be responsible for an electrical problem, only to discover that one of my assumptions about something painfully simple was incorrect. Someday over a few cold ales on your boat or mine I will tell you of at least one recent case of a series of small but incorrect assumptions that cost me most of a summer and a lot of money on the boat  :cry4`

In my considerable experience of making small but incorrect assumptions in my electrical/electronic troubleshooting exercises, I can tell you and others that it is most often the simplest of things that we overlook because we ass-u-me that "it couldn't be that because it is just too simple to be screwed up". Those are famous last words to always remember  :roll:

IT'S THE CONNECTIONS, STUPID!!!

Congratulations on finding the stupid one  :thumb:

Did you still drink the bourbon ?

Quote from: Andrew Harvey on September 10, 2014, 06:29:51 AM
Did you still drink the bourbon ?

Andrew, that was Doug, the OP on this old thread.  Dunno...hope so!  :thumb:

OK, no bourbon, but the RUM is finally COLD!  :clap :clap :clap

Thanks again to John "It's the Connections" Nixon.  That's why he's our technical editor!

And, like Ron Hill always says:  "It's out there, we wrote it up, all ya gotta do is read it!"  :thumb:

Three days, two nights at anchor, fridge works great. 

2016 Update:  Replaced the module in August 2016.  That was the real culprit --- among all the other things!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :D :D :D  Here's the resolution:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9065.0.html

Pleasure Boat Refrigeration Technical Services from Hell

by Richard Kollmann  http://www.kollmann-marine.com/Performance%20problems.aspx (http://www.kollmann-marine.com/Performance%20problems.aspx)


I began my mechanical training in 1949. I took classes in aviation maintenance and engineering. Back then general experience in a wide range of technical subjects was sufficient enough to practice a mechanic's trade. In those days there was an overlap in experience skills between Mechanics, Technicians and Engineers. Training and gaining experience then was less complicated as equipment hardware used common components and software controlled electronics was not involved in daily maintenance or engineering. One of the biggest challenges affecting mechanics, technicians and servicing personal today is a change in defining what is Repairable or Expendable. It was not too long ago that kitchen appliances, radios and lawnmowers were repairable. Do manufacturers plan for refrigeration design obsolescence in order to continue their replacement market or is it just an accident that their products are obsolescent because they are not maintainable and therefore must be considered expendable. When an automobile dealer mechanic can not correct a car's problem he links the car's computer to the manufacturers engineering department computer by way of the internet or asks the manufacturer for help. I find there are no means of contacting specialists in repair techniques on pleasure boat refrigeration. When you deal with as many pleasure boat refrigeration problems as I do, you will realize the job shops that build 12/24 volt refrigeration units are not interested in after market support. Here is how I define what should be an acceptable after market support strategy programs for all pleasure boat refrigeration manufacturers and US distributors if units are imported:

   Must have an available experienced Technician to answer technical questions with reasonable accuracy about the products you sell.
   These companies that design or market their products know something about the system's weak points that could help owners/operators keep their refrigerators running longer. Why not post on the web, Service Bulletins or Technical Tips?
   Reliability engineering analyses is a simple tool developed from questions and technical data received from customers. Taking corrective action based on reported problems is a necessary strategy if a company wants to stay in business.
   Probably the poorest strategy for a distributor or sales person to deal with on a non standard refrigeration unit is to advise a boater to call a local refrigeration mechanic when they know this may damage the unit further.
   Probably the most discouraging advice a boater can receive is its, time to replace your complete system, because no one is interested in helping you with advice needed to repair the present system.

We have seen several pleasure boat refrigeration industries slowly disappear or be forced to diversify into other products because of what appears to be unproductive system design flaws and poor aftermarket strategies. SeaFrost may be the only older boat refrigeration company staying true to their product line with responsibility for After Market support over the years.

Many times normally maintainable boat refrigeration is bastardized to a point that when cruising it is not possible to make repair without the person that designed it. When out of range of conventional aftermarket OEM replacement parts, accessories or without enhanced repair knowledge boaters have to do without their refrigerator. Basic Danfoss air cooled refrigeration hardware is more apt to be available in most areas of the world. Add on gadgets that do little to enhance performance like electronic thermostats, water cooling condensers, keel coolers or other electronics will all put operating refrigerator's reliability at risk.

Boaters today must wonder why 30 year old 12 volt Danfoss BD compressors perform well in systems made by the original Adler Barbour company, Electric Iceman company and a few others. The newer Danfoss BD 12/24 volt air fan cooled compressor systems will only last another 30 years if unproductive gadgets are omitted. Frigoboat BD water cooled compressor systems are replaced early because of refrigerant troubles. E Z Kold systems are replaced because of seawater interring the compressor's refrigerant. Many Danfoss BD compressors are replaced even in good systems because a Service Technician or someone calling himself a Refrigeration Engineer advises that BD compressor rotor is locked up. Other BD compressor failures reported by Technicians From Hell were replaced because someone tampered with refrigerant or added too much refrigerant. Lack of experience, knowledge and incorrect advice from the system manufacturer's representatives, along with the absence of correct manual information and lack of helpful service bulletins are why experienced local mechanics are no longer interested in servicing small 12 volt refrigeration. Locked compressor rotors are common on large hermetically sealed compressors and even water cooled BD compressors but are extremely rare or never occur on air cooled BD Danfoss compressor units.

I received three emails in one month of service personal in Michigan advising boat owners that their Danfoss BD compressor needed to be replaced, my response is always the same. If this is an air-cooled unit, I inform them that there is an electrical problem with their system and warn them not to allow anyone to touch the refrigerant or touch its service ports. Usually this advice is always too late. Identifying trouble area must be accomplished first by Non Destructive testing before tampering with refrigerant. I can not tell you how many times mechanics will say a Danfoss BD compressor will not run if low on refrigerant, This is FALSE. BD compressors will run even with no refrigerant in them. But if there is too much or contaminated refrigerant the electronic control module will detect high amperage and prevent compressor from running.

A few months ago I received an email that one of these mechanics from hell replaced a complete Danfoss BD electronically controlled compressor system because the compressor would not run. When the new unit would not run either, boat owner was told to contact me for help.

Replacing a system without following non destructive adequate testing first to verify the actual cause of problem is a mistake. Replacing a compressor or a complete system is as destructive as any test I know of. After this boat owner spent $1000 or more I advised him that his problem was and is still in the boats electrical system: bad circuit breaker, old wiring, or bad wire connection.

Operators of 12/24 volt refrigeration units powered by a Danfoss BD compressor must understand that there are almost no technicians that understand modern hermetically sealed electronic compressor protective microprocessor control systems. The correct approach to finding and solving problems on one of these delicate units must be with simple non destructive tests. Anyone attempting to troubleshoot a Danfoss compressor system equipped with trouble LED codes must be aware that it will be necessary to interpet the code flashes yourself as manufactures manuals may be not be correct. Example: Locked Compressor Rotor or System over load, a code of 3 LED flashes; I have never found it to be a Locked Rotor on an air cooled Danfoss BD compressor. In my library of Emails and forum posts I found 61 times where Danfoss BD compressor or system replacements advice was not supported by quantified facts. Three flashes of troubleshooting LED indicates a high amperage spike and very unlikely caused by a locked rotor.

For many years' small refrigeration units manufacturers did not provide servicing ports to add or remove refrigerant. Adler Barbour and most home refrigerator manufacturers knew of the problems if their units could have refrigerant charge tampered with so their units were designed without servicing ports. After the 1996 Clean Air Act all systems containing refrigerant must have a servicing port in order to remove and recycle refrigerant gasses.