Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Stu Jackson on November 13, 2005, 04:15:00 PM

Title: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Stu Jackson on November 13, 2005, 04:15:00 PM
Please read both pages

Following the subject of these links: 
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=1328.0 (Tech notes Mainsheet 11/03 Napa Pump # ) and http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=1740.0 (Electric Fuel Pump) and others.

It's called a "POSI-FLO Universal Electronic Fuel Pump," and has pictures of cars, engines, trucks and boats on it.

Here are pictures of the actual Napa replacement fuel pump.  As Ron said, it's electronic.  What I don't know is:  does this new electronic pump still make that welcome ticking sound?  See Ron's input on the update to one of the links above, and later posts here below.

The first picture is of the box before I opened it.  You will notice that it is FACET pump in a NAPA box.  "Facet" was the original (and my PO-provided spare) pump when I earlier posted the easy way to switch the hoses to get the pump flow changed from the OEM incorrect way of: from the tank to the pump to the filter, changed to correctly: from tank, to (usually the Racor) filter, to pump, to engine (with its own fuel filter).  The pump has a fuel flow direction arrow on the back side.

It comes with two barbed fittings that screw into the housing of pump and connect to your fuel hoses.  The instructions indicates that they're 5/16 inch barbs, which may require changing to 3/8 inch to match the fuel hose.  The threads inside the pump will most likely accept your existing barb fittings.

The pump instructions require a filter BEFORE the pump.  If you haven't yet, switch the "plumbing."  As Ron said, the new pump has no filter.  Therefore, why chance clogging the new pump with whatever may be in your fuel tank?  Just correct the hoses: tank, filter, pump, engine.

The pump comes with an in-line waterproof yellow fuse holder, see the second picture below.  One of the links above discusses fuse sizing.  Ron suggested a 7 1/2 A fuse.  The OEM pumps did not apparently have fuses. 

The ring on the negative chould either be retained and NOT removed, using the bolt at the foot of the pump to connect the grounds, or you can use a new butt connector without the rings (just harder to take apart later).  Take a look at picture 3 (old OEM fuel pump) below:  the old ground wire on our OEM pump had a ring connector on it for use in providing the ground.  Use the ring connector on the new pump for a connection to ground using the new pump's mounting foot.  This is simply the existing black GROUND wire running to the existing ground wire at the existing pump's black wire that connects to the entire fuel system underneath the port side of the boat going back to the fuel tank.

The mounting method for the pump body is elongated holes on the base of the pump.  I would guess that one of the existing sheet metal screws holding in the old pump could be used and perhaps only needs one more hole for the second foot of the new pump.  The pump comes with (2) 1-1/4 inch long 7/32 self tapping screws for use on, of all things, an automobile or truck!  The purpose of that is to bolt it to the car's metal frame for ground, which doesn't work on our boats!  One of the two supplied bolts and nuts is shown going through the ring connector in picture 2.

Price: $36.49 before tax.  Pretty much in line with the 2003 price of less than $35 reported in this message board earlier.

The old replacement pump, #601-1011, has been superseded, I'm told today by Napa, to #601-1074.  It costs $134!!!  They didn't have either of the mechanical pumps #s in stock, so it looks like they're switching over to these new guys.  Given the price benefit of the new pumps, why bother with the old?  I think they have their pricing backwards, but I'll take $39 over $134 every time!   :D

Now you know what it looks like, too! 
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Stu Jackson on November 13, 2005, 04:34:28 PM
Picture 2 - Unwrapped 8)
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: SteveLyle on November 13, 2005, 05:38:19 PM
Academically trained as a mechanical engineer, I've heard of all sorts of pumps using all sorts of mechanical mechanisms.  But how exactly does a 'electronic' pump work?  How would one 'electronically' cause a pressure differential in a fluid line, creating a flow?

Sounds like a marketing gimmick to me - somewhere inside that thing is a mechanical mechanism of some sort.  It's probably also got a transistor or diode or some other 'electronic' thingy as well - so the truth-in-advertising police don't come after them.
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Stu Jackson on November 13, 2005, 05:58:27 PM
Here's picture 3, the old fuel pump.  I agree with Steve, somethin's gotta be movin' inside the puppy.  Same thing in a different package?  For the price, it's worth it, and Ron says it works.  For what it's worth, the instructions say it "vibrates" when it's working.  So, it doesn't click, it just vibrates. :shock:  I'll miss the click, click, click, to go along with our glow plug solenoid's "snap :!:"

The only downside of the new pump is that you may not know when it's found the end of it's useful life.

You can also see the ring connector in the picture.  This was my existing ground connection.  Just slip the new pump's ring connector over this and you've got contact on the ground side, or you could cut both ring connectors off and make a butt connection.

The positive connection wire, which is also black on the old pump, comes off the front of the middle of the OEM pump.  This is the red wire on the new pump.

The instructions also mention Purolator, which Ron mentioned in his recent update to this link noted in the first part of this thread up top: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=1328.0
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Ron Hill on November 13, 2005, 07:07:26 PM
I agree with Steve, that the no-mer of "electronic" is deceptive.  I'm sure that it's safe to say simplistically - there are fewer mechanical & moving parts to wear out, thus extending it's life.   :think
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 19, 2007, 08:25:38 AM
The following additional information regarding these pumps was provided by Michael in Reply #28, second page, of this long thread: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=3347.15

Today, I also removed the "new" Facet Purolator "Posi-Flow" universal electric fuel lift pump that we installed a couple of weeks ago. It seems to have been dead on purchase or dead soon after.  Got another one from NAPA, who are quite willing to take the dead one back, and installed it.  It makes happy pump sounds...but only when hotwired to the battery and not (on the one quick occasion I could try it) when the keyswitch was in the "on but not glowplugs" position.  The pump manufacturer recommends a 3 to 5 amp automotive type fuse be placed in the fuel pump circuit.  The old lift pump didn't have a fuse in the circuit but so far as I can tell seems to have relied on the 10 amp circuit breaker that is attached (on my M-35B anyway) to the starboard light duty terminal on the preheat solenoid. For anyone interested in what goes on inside these plastic-bodied Posi-Flo pumps and how they fail, the postings by Tim C Cook in a discussion thread at http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/1201037611/r/9121070811 seem to have the air of credibility about them.
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Stu Jackson on February 11, 2009, 11:20:30 AM
The reason your pump did not work when you turned the ignition switch, but NOT the glow plug switch on is covered in this very long and detailed thread:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3347.45.html (http:// http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3347.45.html)  See replies #20 & #59 and the other posts I made to that thread.  The newer M35 series engines have what I believe is an unnecessary change to the pump operation:  switch on pump does not run, glow plugs on pump runs, glow plugs off to start the engine then the  pump does not run, when and only after the engine starts and the oil pressure comes up to OK, then the pump runs again.  Details covered in the link provided.

The short form with links is covered in Critical Upgrades:  

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg41829.html#msg41829 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg41829.html#msg41829)
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Ron Hill on February 12, 2009, 03:55:43 PM
Guys, Susan & D :  The wiring that Stu has mentioned goes back to the old M35A engine.  I remember Bill Nuttall (previous C34 tech Ed) mentioning to me that his fuel (lift) pump was wired into the spring loaded position of the key switch with the glow plugs!  At the time I thought it had been mis-wired, but it was correct in his 1993 C34 #1244. 
I recently learned that that type wiring scheme is a safety factor to protect the engine if there is low/no oil pressure.  When you turn on the glow pugs (key switch spring loaded position) the electric lift pump is activated.  When the key in moved back to ON and the starter is hit and the engine starts, the oil pressure switch opens, the oil pressure alarm/light (if you have both) shuts off and the lift pump is turned again.  That's why the newer owners manuals tell you to hit the starter while the glow plugs are engaged! 
Again, the C34 is different because the fuel tank is higher than the engine and fuel will continue to gravity feed the injection pump.  That sequence will not happen, only if you have a lift pump that will not let fuel flow thru it if the pump isn't working. 
If your oil pressure switch has two + contacts (on the top as the threaded case is negative), you probably have this type system.
A few thoughts. 
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Rick Johnson on February 12, 2009, 06:42:27 PM
Has the part number changed?  I decided to buy a spare pump but I cannot find that part number at Napa...

Cheers,

Rick
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Ron Hill on February 13, 2009, 06:02:56 PM
Rick : That's a question for NAPA. 
There is no doubt that the pump that Stu and I bought was at that time a #610-1051(and still may be the same # -clerk looked it up wrong or NAPA could have changed #s)? 
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Stu Jackson on February 13, 2009, 08:34:49 PM
Rick, many times companies will modify the model numbers of their inventory.  Most times it makes little sense to us buyers and creates a great amount of unnecessary confusion.  In fact, many part numbers for our engines have changed for no apparent reason.  I suggest you get in touch with Napa and give them the prior model number and see if they have an update.  Many times they can trace it from that.  Sometimes it's the manufacturer and sometimes just the distributor.
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 05, 2009, 11:24:56 AM
C34 Owner Greg Sherwood, Imi Loa #582, recently needed to replace his (most likely) OEM fuel pump.  He reported:  

Stu, FYI, the “old” one (NAPA 610-1051), is no longer available.  The replacement is a Purolator PRO12SV.  

No pictures available (yet), and I haven't seen it personally, just thought you'd like to know.  This is in San Jose, CA, so supplies could still be available elsewhere in the country.

Continuing the story, Greg said he purchased the pump "with concerns."  I asked him what those concerns were and he replied: "Concern #1 – the pressure is a little higher; 3-4.5 psi vs. 4-7psi;  Concern #2 – on the package it states “Do not use on fuel injected vehicles”.  I have a note in to Catalina to ask advice."   I would ask Universal, not Catalina.  I've suggested that Greg call Joe Joyce.

I'll keep you posted and update this thread as I learn more.  I have not yet done an internet search on the new pump to see what it looks like.  

Here it is:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2515.15.html
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Ron Hill on September 05, 2009, 06:52:53 PM
Guys : Who really cares about a particular electric brand lift pump as long as it's:
1.  A 12v negative ground
2.  It pumps at least 2gal/hour
3.  It can be adapted to 3/8" barbs - so it fits your fuel hoses
4.  It has electronic contacts (the pump itself is mechanical) so it's more relialable than the mechanical contacts/points.

Facet is a brand name used by NAPA, just like Craftsman is used by Sears

Also the C34 will run with out a lift pump as the tank is higher than the engine.  A few thoughts
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 05, 2009, 10:17:41 PM
Also the C34 will run with out a lift pump as the tank is higher than the engine.

Reportedly until the fuel tank is at half.  For those of you with new-to-you boats.
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Ron Hill on September 06, 2009, 10:26:12 AM
Guys, Susan and D. Gill :  No supposedly about it - that a C34 will run with out a lift pump.  I ran mine for over a year with out the lift pump ON while the engine was running!!  

I was the one that said 1/2 tank, because I never let mine get below half full.  I'd guess that the fuel will still syphon down to less than 1/4 tank ?!  A thought
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Stu Jackson on October 16, 2009, 10:32:40 AM
Here's an update on these pumps.  Greg Sherwood, former Fleet Captain of Fleet One here in San Francisco, was inquiring with a local vendor about fuel pumps since he was having some issues with his pump.  Greg is the captain of his C34 for sail tours of the Bay.

From: baymarinediesel@comcast.net [mailto:baymarinediesel@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
To: gsherwood@sfsailtours.com

Cheaper is better is old news, we tried these pumps and subsequently everyone of these pump failed and continue to fail with short run times compared to the interrupter pumps we sell from Purolator/Facet. These electronic, little square bricks, are extremely sensitive to placement, must be below the fuel level in the tank and the run has to be relatively short. As with these solid state pumps and with regard to the interrupter type pumps, there are literally hundreds of pumps to choose from, all with different capabilities and features, getting the right pump for your application is not withing the abilities of most over the counter parts sales staff, price does vary significantly depending on quality and durability of the pump, all of our pumps are designed for and used in aviation applications, as well as, marine and automotive. With these pumps we have zero callbacks for warranty replacement.

Cheers,

Marty Chin
Bay Marine Diesel
600 Central Ave #12
Alameda, CA. 94501

----- Original Message -----
From: "MCST" <gsherwood@sfsailtours.com>
To: baymarinediesel@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009

I guess that’s why the Catalina owners group recommends switching over to the NAPA pumps.  $150 versus $45.  From what I’ve been told, the NAPA 610-1051 or Purolator PRO12SV are both supposed to be acceptable replacements.

Thanks for the info.

Cheers,

Greg


From: baymarinediesel@comcast.net [mailto:baymarinediesel@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 11:40 AM
To: gsherwood@sfsailtours.com

I just ordered 5 new faucet interrupter pumps that should be in by the end of the week. .8-6psi, 24" dry lift, no locking valves or positive shut off, 32 gallon per hour capacity, 1/8" female pipe threads.These are the same pumps used by universal at a significantly lower price. Factory Universal price is $260.70 and we sell the same pump from the manufacturers supplier at $150.00

Marty Chin
Bay Marine Diesel
600 Central Ave #12
Alameda, CA. 94501

----- Original Message -----
From: "MCST" <gsherwood@sfsailtours.com>
To: baymarinediesel@comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2009 10:34:31 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Website Contact Page

Hi,

We spoke for a bit at South Beach Harbor the other day regarding fuel pumps for Catalina sailboats and you mentioned you could get the cylindrical Facet pumps.  Would you send me pricing and any other info you might have.  

Thanks!

Cheers,
Greg
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Ron Hill on October 17, 2009, 05:44:21 PM
Guys , Susan & D. Gill : Forget about the part numbers!!
  
The cylindrical body Facet (fuel lift) pump that was supplied with the original M25XP engines on the MK I C34(& C36s) had a fuel strainer as part of the pump and mounted in the head sink compartment (C34s).
  
When Westerbeke bought out Universal from Oshkosh (1992?); they changed the fuel flow and electrical functions of the lift pump and also change the lift pump to a Facet square body pump without a fuel strainer, that was mounted on the rear of the engine.  These were generally on M35A engines (M25XPA engines weren't normally installed in the C34/36s).  That same fuel & electrical set up is on the M25XPB and M35BC engines today.

A few thoughts.  :wink:
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: jmnpe on March 06, 2010, 11:21:01 PM
Now that my original fuel pump has apparently bit the dust, I will share my research regarding the Facet/Purolator electric fuel pumps.

The Facet and Purolator brands are now manufactured by Motor Components, LLC ( www.facet-purolator.com ) The original Facet Interrupter that was standard on our older boats is still available, but at the higher price noted ( about $150 online ). The "solid state" version of the Interrupter is called the GOLD-FLO pump and is available online for as little as $85 online ( www.racerpartswholesale.com ). The old NAPA #610-1051was the Facet/Purolator FEP-04SV / PRO-04SV in the current POSI-FLOW series. The CUBE pumps are basically the "brick" looking pumps that Westerbeke and other manufacturers have been using for years, but in the "solid state" version.

The "solid state" is said to mean no bearings, no diaphragms to break, and no electrical contacts. It is said to increase reliability significantly over the mechanical electric pumps ( including the old Interrupter pump ) by a significant factor. I have used on of these types of pumps as a transfer pump in years past and found them to perform quite well and to be fairly robust. The frequency of their operation ( a high "buzz" rather than "clicking" ) leads me to suspect that they could be piezoelectric based.

The current Facet/Purolator pumps which approximate the performance of the original Interrupter pump are the FEP-06SV / PRO-06SV in the POSI-FLO series; the FEP-12SV / PRO-12SV in the CUBE series; and the FEP-87SV / PRO-87SV in the GOLD-FLO series. Many or all of these are available through a number of online retailers, or on e-Bay.

The only advantages the GOLD-FLO ( Interrupter replacement ) offers over the other models is the same mounting footprint and input/output configuration as the original pump, and the presence of the replaceable 74 Micron internal fuel filter ( which is of questionable value when properly positioned AFTER the Racor filter ). For about half the price of the GOLD-FLO model, I'll probably go with the CUBE model, which seems to be more readily available than the POSI-FLO.

Regards,

John
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: mainesail on March 07, 2010, 07:30:41 AM
Academically trained as a mechanical engineer, I've heard of all sorts of pumps using all sorts of mechanical mechanisms.  But how exactly does a 'electronic' pump work?  How would one 'electronically' cause a pressure differential in a fluid line, creating a flow?

Sounds like a marketing gimmick to me - somewhere inside that thing is a mechanical mechanism of some sort.  It's probably also got a transistor or diode or some other 'electronic' thingy as well - so the truth-in-advertising police don't come after them.


Academically trained as a mechanical engineer, I've heard of all sorts of pumps using all sorts of mechanical mechanisms.  But how exactly does a 'electronic' pump work?  How would one 'electronically' cause a pressure differential in a fluid line, creating a flow?

Sounds like a marketing gimmick to me - somewhere inside that thing is a mechanical mechanism of some sort.  It's probably also got a transistor or diode or some other 'electronic' thingy as well - so the truth-in-advertising police don't come after them.


They are often solenoid designs..

Solenoid pumps are perhaps the most widely used "universal" type. They are designed to fit lots of universal applications such as C-34's and ski boats. They’re also available in many different pressure ranges to suit a specific need.

Rather than a motor, a solenoid pump uses a piston that is actuated by an electromagnetic coil. This is what's used to generate fuel pressure and flow. By utilizing short pulses of electricity the solenoid pump can be very energy-efficient. They can also be quite long-lasting as some, but not all, don't even have internal rubber parts or bellows to wear out.

Another style uses a unique gear and rotor eccentric mechanism that squeezes the fuel within the pump to create high pressure with very little pulsation. These a re slightly less efficient electrically.

Yet anotehr style is the rotary vane which is the least efficient electrically but the best for use in a fuel polishing or recirculation system..
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Ron Hill on March 08, 2010, 06:46:12 PM
Amazing to have all of this science, engineering, dissection and discussion involving a C34 engine that will run without a lift pump - because the fuel tank will gravity feed the injection pump.

Great information anyway.  
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: jmnpe on March 08, 2010, 08:26:03 PM
Very true, Ron.

However, the system won't purge air out of the fuel delivery system by gravity feed very quickly. The "pump" on the filter is only a little faster than gravity feed, and tears up my knuckles to boot. My main interest in a working electric fuel pump is for all the other aspects beyond just having the engine run.

I'm lazy and proud! But, that's just me.....

 :rolling

John
Title: Re: FLIX!!! of NAPA Fuel Pump #610-1051
Post by: Ron Hill on March 09, 2010, 06:13:36 PM
John : You are very true about the electric fuel pump making one lazy about purging the air out of the fuel system.  That's either after a filter change or a "power boaters laps" - of running out of fuel (thank God they don't fly aircraft or I'd walk about with my steal helmet).

Just don't forget that your Racor filter bracket (in a dire emergency with no electric fuel pump) does have a finger operated pump !! to make fuel flow and purge the system of air!!   A thought