For a Catalina 34 Mark II, want help on model number of Racor fuel filter & Racor number of the 2 micron replacement element.
Ken Morton - Trident - 1300
I don't want to contradict the master (Ron), but my '97 mkII takes a Racor 15S and the installation is height restricted against taller filters. Boat US stocks the 15S but it certainly isn't their most popular filter so don't expect it on a store shelf.
Two other interesting notes. I just found out the S stands for 2 micron, T is 10 micron, and P is 30 micron. My yard says that Yanmar is now recommeding 30 micron filters for all their engines. I don't beleive it, but I don't have a Yanmar either so I guess it doesn't matter.
Brian Reed
1997 C34 mkII "Ambitious"
Solomons, MD
For the record, my 1996 Catalina 34 MKII takes a 15S Racor fuel filter element.
Ken - Trident - 1300
Just to add to the discussion, my 2002 C34 (Glory #1602) has a Racor R15P. Interesting.
cwmarine@aol.com
Chuck-
Was that 15P (30 micron I think) original equipment on your 2002?
Brian Reed
1997 C34 mkII "Ambitious"
Solomons, MD
Brian,
Sorry for the delayed response. Anyhow, I believe that you are correct regarding the 15P filter being 30 micron.
Chuck
2002 C34MKII "Glory"
If you really do have a 30 micron filter it's probably a good idea to move down to a 2 micron filter. The smaller the junk you can filter out the better. Just a thought...
Ted
RACOR FUEL FILTER NUMBERS
From the Racor 220/225R Spin-on Series Manual:
R24S 220R, 2 micron replacement element
R24T 220R, 10 micron replacement element
R24P 220R, 30 mciron
R26S 225R, 2 micron
R26T 225R, 10 micron
R26P 225R, 30 micron
S - 2 micron BROWN; T - 10 micron BLUE; P - 30 micron RED
As I recall from being in the store on Monday, the 15 series is a much thinner (shorter) filter.
The manual covers two different separators, the 220R and 225R. 220R is for 30 gph, the 225R is for 45 gph, I'd bet we have the 220Rs.
Stu
Stu,
What is the minimum GPH needed for the primary fuel filter M25? I didn't see that in the manual. Since the boats were fitted with 220Rs as you mention, 30GPH would be safe. Just wanted to know if there was a spec.
Mahendra
30 gph is WAY over sized for the pump. The engine consumes less than 1/2 gph when running at cruising speed, so all the rest is recirculated.
Try this pump resource: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2515.15.html
As far as the filters go, I'm not sure we're dealing with a minimum flow issue, but rather what is available on the market for use that are reliable and have been proven in use.
There are basically two choices:
1. Racor 200R Diesel Fuel Filter Water Separators. The bodies are $130 and the filters are $25.
2. Racor Turbine series, where the housings are $260, but the filters are only $13.
Some folks suggest that the more expensive body saves $$ on filters down the line. Given one filter change a year, that's a pretty long payback period.
There may be other vendors of fuel filter systems out there, but the ubiquitous nature of the "Racor" family makes the filter elements pretty easy to find.
There have been a couple of Mainsheet articles where people have installed a second Racor filter for a fuel "polishing" system.
It usually is a 10 micron polishing filter with a 2 micron filter going to the injection pump.
Stu,
Thanks for the quick response. The 0.5 GPH consumption is an average fuel consumption. When we rev the engine it must be consuming higher volume, even for a short period. Hence the max GPH that the fuel filter should pass has to be significantly higher. That would mean a 15GPH (0.5x30) fuel filter would also work fine, eh? Wonder why people would go for a 30GPH or higher. The 500FG or 500MA are 60 GPH! We would be just pushing the fuel back to the tank most of the time.
Ron,
Would that mean that they have a primary fuel filter (say 10-30Microns), a fuel polishing filter (say 10 Micron), followed by the fuel pump, and then the engine mounted secondary fuel filter (say 2 Micron)? Just wanted to make sure I understand the fuel system design you mentioned above.
Thanks guys,
Mahendra
Quote from: SeaFever on December 04, 2009, 02:45:19 PM
The 0.5 GPH consumption is an average fuel consumption. When we rev the engine it must be consuming higher volume, even for a short period. Hence the max GPH that the fuel filter should pass has to be significantly higher. That would mean a 15GPH (0.5x30) fuel filter would also work fine, eh? Wonder why people would go for a 30GPH or higher. The 500FG or 500MA are 60 GPH! We would be just pushing the fuel back to the tank most of the time.
I agree, only point is that "the use of the available" rule strikes here, too. That's what is on the market and what is used by nearly every single American boat builder. "They" just don't make anything else applicable, so if it's too big for the intended use, but still works, that's what we use.
If you look in the WM catalogs, those are the smallest flow filters available. I'm sure if you checked Parker's (Racor's) website, you most likely not find anything much smaller.
Since the fuel flow is not governed by the filter, but rather by the use of the engine, and then by the electric fuel pump, whatever fuel is not being used by the engine is indeed being "polished," which is why I'm not so keen on installing a separate fuel polishing "system." The one advantage of dual filters is replacing one if it gets clogged.
Maine Sail had a good observation on filter micron sizes just recently, here: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=114152 (http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=114152)
There's also further discussion in a more recent topic: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6475.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6475.0.html)
Mah : Let's start over:
The filter mounted on the engine is 10/15 microns. The Racor filter between the engine filter and the tank is usually a 2 micron Racor.
The fuel polishing filter (10 micron) is a separate filter on a separate fuel line to only circulate fuel thru that line back into the tank. Read the articles on this topic.
Universal engines with a fuel bleed valve have NO fuel returning back to the tank - if that valve remains closed. That's why I recommend that you keep that valve about 1/4 to 1/2 turn open.
Ron,
I closed my bleed valve last time I changed the filter. Explain again why you recomend that it be left partially open.
Thanks,
Hawk
Hawk : Look at my post above.
If the bleed valve is closed no fuel is returning to the fuel tank. With the bleed valve cracked open you have a self bleeding system.
Ron,
Its gone below 0 degrees celcius here so everything slows down, including my brain.
I re-read the posts. My bleed valve is closed and all works well. So where is the fuel gone that is supposed to go back to the tank if I keep the valve open 1/4?
Thanks,
Hawk
Hawk
Think of it like this.....with that valve closed, all of the fuel [ a small amount ] is pumped to the injection pump, and then is used to run the engine. When the valve is open....1/8,1/4 turn or whatever.....part of the fuel pumped through is still being used to run the engine, and the rest [a greater amount ] is being bypassed back to the the fuel tank, only to be pumped through the system again.
OK got it. Newly "polished" fuel is going back into the tank making for a better tank of fuel over time.
Thanks
If it helps, here are the numbers I use. I am sure the book calls for a 30 Micron primary and a 10 Micron secondary (engine). Why use a 2 Micron? Sounds like overkill, if Universal says 10 is OK.
Hope it helps.
Universal M35 B SN WW 2556 D904
Fuel Filter, Engine Universal # 298854 NAPA 3390 or WIX 33390
10 Micron
Oil Filter Universal # 300209 NAPA 1334 or WIX 51334
Primary Fuel Filter Racor # R 15 P 30 Micron (Red Top)
Raw Water Impeller Universal # 302875 or Sherwood # 0900K
Alternator Belt Gates 11A1015 Notches
Stewart : Thanks for the Info.
The belt # you are using is a metric number and depends on whether you have the OEM alternator or not ?? What may change the length from the belt is a differant alternator!
I have a Balmar Hi out-put alternator and use a 11A1030 meteric size or 7405 Gates belt size SAE.
Hawk & Guys : What you need to do is to is disconnect the small fuel return line (last injector) on any Universal engine that has a closed bleed valve and turn on the electric fuel pump. You'll be surprised to find that NO fuel flows. However, open the bleed valve and you'll have a gusher coming out trying to go back to the fuel tank!!
Don't try this with a M25XPB or M35 engine as the electric fuel pump will not engage until the glow plugs are activated and neither have a bleed valve!! A few thoughts
Ron,
I thought mine was a M35 as there is no B on the engine ID plate on my 1990. Does that sound right.
Hawk
Boy here is is again ..... Filtration 101 For the simple record: The first filter after the tank is the 15 micron and the final filter at the engine is the 2 micron.
I makes no sense to filter initially at 2 micron and then down-stream put in a coarse filter that passes larger particles that you have already filtered out.
I worked for Parker and sold hydraulic and pneumatic filtration for 33 years.
From the scientific point of view you are entirely correct. Now ask yourself. If I had to change a fuel filter on a hot engine in a bouncy seaway which one would you rather change? I'll go with the racor every time. Yes the second filter is not doing what it was designed to do, but in case of a bypass it wil protect the engine. It also doesn't need to be changed that often which helps off set the higher cost of the racor elements.
If you use a 2 micron filter as the primary then you will NEVER have to change the spin-on. You will also
find yourself changing the primary Racor a lot more often.
But, as a stockholder in Parker Hannifin I encourage you to keep buying a lot of Racor filter elements.
I would however flunk the class attendee that gave that plan on a test in a class that I taught.
Te each his own :?
I only change my 2 micron racor filter once a year, that's not all too often.
If you have to change it more often than that, then you know you have a problem that has to be addressed.
I know my primary is the Racor 24T which is the 10 micron. Never a problem, but I keep my fuel treated and "biocided".
I read somewhere, I thought on the Racor site, that the water separator on the 500fg primary filter doesn't work well with a filter size less than 30 microns. That has me with a 30 micron on the primary and a 2 micron on the engine. Sail4dale or anyone else who may know does this make since or am I dreaming it. I am getting old.
Goodwinds
DaveM
The Racor literature says that water separation is effective in all the micron sizes and the Aquabloc®II filter element takes care of the water. They are currently touting the 10 Micron filter element as the standard.
As for me wen I next but a replacement element I will get a 10 micron but certainly not a 2 micron. The fuel we buy is so dirty with particles below 40 microns that I feel the clogging of the 2 micron isn't worth it along with the corresponding pressure drop.
It is important to keep in mind that a liquid that looks clean is not necessarily so. The human eye can only detect particles above 40 micron without a scope.
DaveM, are you sure that you have a 2 micron filter at the engine? Is it a spin on type because I wasn't aware that they were available in the spin on type.Do you have the part number because I would consider using one.
sail4dale,I haven't had any problems with dirty fuel in California, are you sure your tank isn't contanimated?
As I said, my 2 micron Racor lasts me all year with no problems, also no water ever in the bowl. I must be doing something right.
For the same reason Maine Sail and others have warned against putting a 2 micron on the Racor primary, I would caution against even considering doing so on the secondary. Didn't someone (like, everybody!) say the secondary filter is 10 micron?
Stu, you're right about Mainsail warning about putting on a 2 micron filter, but he was talking about a delivery he was doing on a unfamiliar boat.
My point is that if you've been using a 2 micron filter for years with no problems, you can feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that your fuel system and tank is in good shape.
THEN, if you start having problems with clogged filters, you know something is wrong and should be checked.
I'm pretty sure that the spin on filter that I'm using is 30 micron but I thought that was all that's available in the spin on type.
I hear ya, Mike, but I think the issue is not clogged filterS, it's which filter gets clogged and is easy to get to, plus what's available on the market. If all they make are 30 micron filters for the spin on secondary filters, issue is over. But I'd never put a smaller micron filter on the engine anyway.
I understand Maine Sail's story, but if you've ever traveled with your boat, you have NO CLUE of the condition of the fuel in a new-to-you harbor. I know "MY" fuel guy is cool and has fine fuel, but I do not know what Bodega Bay or Monterey may be like when I visit there.
So, as you say, the choices are pretty easy:
--- Keep the 10 on the secondary
--- Decide what you want to do with the primary
2 micron catches everything, been working for us for years
keeps the secondary cleaner
downside: may plug up quicker on poor dirty fuel
10 micron primary matches the secondary, why bother?
Your boat, your choice. 8)
Very good points,Stu.
Bottom line I guess is, know what's available and use what works for you and what you feel comfortable with.
Well Mike good question on finding a 2 micron for an M25-xp. I got a Wix 33390 spin on two years ago from an auto parts store being told that it matched another brand I had that was supposed to be a 2 micron. Well when I looked it up on Wix site a 33390 is a 10 micron. Oh well. While on Wix site I looked for the recommended fuel filter for a Kubota D950 (the base of the M25-xp) and low and behold the recommendation was a Wix 33390. There you go.
Goodwinds
DaveM
Just, a more general question about fuel filters: has anybody written detailed instructions on how to change both (primary and secondary) fuel filters?
Thanks a lot!
Juan
Guys, Susan and D.Gill : On this topic - WOW! Here are some of the facts of life:
1. The engine filter is about 10 to 15 micron filtration - you can't change that (that I know of) !
2. The Racor filter which is the first filter that the fuel reaches from the tank, can be change to either
a 2 or 10 or 30 micron size! All of the Racor "spin-on" filters have a water seperator bowl on the bottom.
3. The ideal system would have the courser filter first and you can do that. I placed an inline 10 to 15 micron filter between the fuel tank and the Racor. Wrote an article on how to do it. The problem is that it got TOOO messy trying to change the inline filter in the space that I had under the C34 sink!! & gave up
4. If you have a separate fuel polishing system with a 10 micron Racor, the 2 micron Racor before the engine fuel filter works just fine.
5. If you use the 2 micron Racor then you seldom have to change the 10/15 micron engine filter (maybe every 3/5 years). For those of you that have not changed the engine filter - you're in for a treat!!
6. I use the 2 micron Racor, but use the Starbrite enzyme additive, and now do not have a problem
A few thoughts
I wanted to answer a question on the engine filter that has been bugging me for a while and that is what does the engine OEM call for. This tread prompted me to search for the the M-25xp Kubota engine fuel filter which I understand from this site is a B7200 tractor. I found the Kubota filter which is a Wiz 33389, 10 micron. The spin on equivalent is of course the Wix 33390, 10 micron. That answers that question for me.
Good Winds
DaveM
Quote from: Juan on December 08, 2009, 03:42:35 PM
Just, a more general question about fuel filters: has anybody written detailed instructions on how to change both (primary and secondary) fuel filters?
Sure. When having questions about a specific subject, go to the WIKI.
http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=How_to_Change_Your_Racor_Filter
The secondary engine filter is much the same, the access is different and harder.
From an edited earlier post on fuel bleeding:
I do not fill the secondary (engine mounted) filter with fuel, since it is a bear to get back there and put a strap wrench on it, no less getting my hand in to get the threads started. If it is empty, I can't spill any fuel. It is difficult to avoid spilling fuel when I remove the old one. I bought a smaller strap wrench for that filter.
Once the new clean secondary filter is on, I just open that bolt, run the electric fuel pump by turning on the key switch at the panel, wait till the air is gone, close the bolt, and I'm done. I installed a fuel pump shutoff toggle switch in the engine compartment so that I can control the pump without having to jump up into the cockpit.Once the filters are changed, bleeding is next, so, a very good discussion of fuel bleeding is here: Theoretical Fuel Bleeding: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2884.0.html
If the secondary is a 10 micron filter, then things change in my Reply #32 above, rather than the 30 micron I used. I shoulda known better because an earlier post said it was 10 micron. My bad. [Corrected]
Following that logic, though, I'm staying with the 2 micron primary Racor, because I do NOT want that secondary clogging on me first (if I switched to an equal 10 or larger 30 micron primary). I'm willing to put up with a rough water or bad fuel primary change, a la Mike's point. I do NOT want the secondary clogging first: then the scenario would be to change the larger micron primary, but still have a mess with no fuel flow, and then have to change the secondary anyway. That's plain Nuts.
If one of the filters plugs, I want it to be the Racor not the secondary.
Here's an earlier discussion of this issue: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4462.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4462.0.html)
You can read much more if you search "secondary filter" with the quotation marks. Some fun stuff back there! 8)
Guys : We've about beat this topic to death and as I mentioned "if you haven't changed the fuel filter(on the engine) you're in for a real treat"
In my limited experience of 21 years here's what I've found changing the engine fuel filter :
1. You are in a cramped space just getting to the starboard side of the engine.
2. I've always changed that filter with the engine cold. I couldn't imagine what it would be like HOT !!
3. That filter never seems to seal the first time and always need to tightened some more. That makes the filter that much harder to untighten.
4 Even if you fill the filter with fuel you MUST use the bleed nut(on top of the bracket) to get the air out of the filter/line, as the fuel in the line to the injection pump comes out when you remove the old filter.
5. Don't care how careful you are with that filter change, I always still spilled fuel!!
Blows my mind just thinking of doing that job while the engine is hot and in any kind of a pitching sea.
A few thoughts
Gosh .... I guess I didn't really understand the problem. I changed the engine filter and it
was a no brainer Is the MK II different that the MKI?
I sure understand the argument about changing the Primary filter is easier than the engine mounted filter especially when everything is hot.
Sail4Dale what got me started on the idea that I had to use a 30 micron to get water separator function I finally found in the page of Racor flyer, portion attached. Note the tying the water separator function with the 30 micron. I am assuming from your comment and experience that you will still get water separator function with a 2 micron filter? Thanks
Goodwinds
Davem
I think the key to the confusion is "turbine series". From my limited research, turbine series filters rely on high volume/flow to spin the the water out of the fuel. They also have drop in filters rather than spin on. I think the standard spin on routes unfiltered fuel to the bottom and clean fuel comes out the top. Water is supposed to "fall out" of the fuel as it makes the turn to go back up.