My Universal M35BC engine always starts immediately on first push of the button. This weekend we had some issues:
Saturday - the boat had been idle for two weeks. Engine would not start. Looked at engine nothing looked out of ordinary. It took four attempts to start it. Ran fine turned it off at fuel dock. Started perfectly and ran for four hours without incident.
Sunday morning - obviously cold engine from overnight again would not start but now the audible alarm went on. Again looked at engine nothing seemed out of normal. After four tries with the alarm wailing it turned on and alarm went off. Ran fine for three hours. Turned it off. Checked the engine front and back. Turned it back on without a problem.
No fuel, oil, or antifreeze leaks anywhere - all levels are good.
What could the culprit be? Fuel pump?
Enrique
Tali : The engine would not start? did the starter turn over? vigorously?
You engaged the glow plugs each time?
Starter cranking was normal. All fluid levels fine. Engine cutoff was fine. No indication of leaks anywhere of oil, fuel, water or antifreeze. Fuel in rancor cup looks fine. After started ran fine. Started right up and operated normally on warm engine start. Seems to happen on cold starts.
Glow plugs or glow plug circuit?
I always allow count to ten on cold engine. Ill look at that next time on board by looking at voltage drop while heating the plugs but wouldn't they either work or not? Remember after four tries or so the engine starts and runs normally and no warm engine starting problems.
Good idea to check the voltage while holding the glow plugs.
Try glow plugs for longer.
Tali : Here is your starting sequence for the M35BC engine:
When you turn ON the key switch you should hear the "no oil pressure alarm".
When you turn ON the glow plugs (spring loaded) you should see about a 2 V drop on the volt meter (draw from glow plugs) and the electric fuel pump turns ON.
As the engine cranks / starts and the oil pressure comes up turning the "oil alarm" shuts OFF. The glow plugs are already OFF and with oil pressure the electric fuel pump stays ON.
I'd check your glow plug wiring and both contacts on the oil pressure sender. Might also check that your fuel pump is pumping.
I wouldn't engage your glow plugs for more than 15 seconds (check your engine manual!!)
A few thoughts
Careful not to crank the engine too much. It's possible to fill the water lift muffler and get water in the cylinders. The cranking time is in the manual, I don't recall what it is but it's not very long.
By chance have you changed the fuel filters lately? You could have a small leak and be getting air into the fuel system.
Jim
Enrique
The B engines need a working oil switch to power the fuel pump. They also need a working preheat solenoid to power the pump while cranking (no oil pressure yet while cranking.)
I would start w/ checking that solenoid (voltmeter on a glow plug terminal.)
I had a customer with EXACTLY your situation -- it was both the fuel pump AND the solenoid. I BELIEVE, the pump was bad first, and he preheated for so long trying to start her, that it then fried the solenoid.
BE CAREFUL -- the OEM solenoid IS NOT continuous duty, so if you preheat for more than needed you WILL BURN OUT the solenoid. Replace it with a continuous duty solenoid (from NAPA.) Listen for fuel pump with preheat button in -- that's what activates the fuel pump before there's oil pressure.
ken
Hey Ken,
Help me with my left brain-right brain disfunction; I don't understand your continuous duty definition :cry4`
If prior to this you asked me how I would interpret "continuous duty", I'd say the solenoid stays active as long as you have the key turned over, whose risk is burning out the solenoid.
Thanks!
Ed
Ed, the answer is in the text from the Critical Upgrades, here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg41829.html#msg41829
Ed
Liken it to the Admiral's "continuous duty" honey-do list.
Short bursts are okay, but if you don't take a break you'll burn out. Same for the solenoid switch - it's the pull- in coil that can't take constant energerizing, it heats up and burns out.
We're talking preheat solenoid switch here, not starter solenoid switch
A continuous duty solenoid switch is made like the energizer bunny..
Guys : Also the M35BC engine has a different glow plug vrs the M25/XP series engines.
A thought
Ken - I was hoping for a more parochial explanation of why is it called continuous duty? Assume there is a technical reason for it.
Stu - I read the link, but as I noted above, no explanation, just says to use a continuous solenoid. Which I did 2 years ago, but I never bothered find out it means.
Regards,
Ed
Ed : What part of -- burning up if continuously left ON don't you understand??
Stu : In Critical updates -That does NOT apply to any M25XP engines (mounted in Catalina 34s) as no XPs came with a glow plug solenoid!! However, the M35, M25XPB and M35BC engines are the ones with the glow plug time limitation.
A few thoughts
Ed
I thought I said it very simply and straightforward. I don't know what kind of description you want that would be "confined or restricted as if within the borders of a parish : limited in range or scope (as to a narrow area or region)" that pertains to " continuous duty."
But, I'll give it another go. Continuous duty means that it can be placed into duty continuously, i.e., the solenoid coil can stay energized forever and ever and ever and will not burn up. "Intermittent duty" means that the solenoid coil can be energized only occasionally and then has to be allowed to cool down. Typically for a solenoid that would be maybe 10 or 15 seconds of duty, and then cooled for 60 secs. Obviously the amount of duty versus cooldown time would be specific to each manufacturers product.
As an example, the starter motor is rated for intermittent duty, you can't crank it continuously or you'll burn up the winding. You have to crank it for a few seconds and then allow to cool.
Quote from: Ron Hill on August 17, 2017, 02:55:05 PM
Stu : In Critical updates -That does NOT apply to any M25XP engines (mounted in Catalina 34s) as no XPs came with a glow plug solenoid!! However, the M35, M25XPB and M35BC engines are the ones with the glow plug time limitation.
Ron:
Here is the entire quote from the Critical Upgrades link I provided. It covers what you said.
In December 2011, Ray Irvine reported: "Also the solenoid that is used for the glow plugs is a low duty cycle version - the duty cycle is limited by the hold coil. This means that if you hold the glow plugs on for too long - like get distracted with conversation etc - you can burn out the hold coil. I am about to replace mine with a continuous duty cycle solenoid - for $10.00 more dollars." This is for an M35 in a Mark II, and for those who have built-in OEM solenoids on their engines. Many of us have added solenoids on our older M25 series engines.
Ed
Maybe the problem is that you're thinking "use"rather than "rating"
Continuous duty or intermittent duty is the RATING of the equipment, not (necessarily) how it used.
Equipment that is manufactured to a standard that it can be ON with no OFF time necessary, is rated as CD. CD equipment has a 100% duty cycle.
Equipment that is manufactured so that it needs to rest between short periods of use is rated ID (typically rated as a duty cycle of ON-OFF (such as 30 sec on - 120 sec off or a 20% duty cycle.)
kk
Ken - perfect. Your 2 posts clearly answer my question.
Ron - read Ken's post and maybe you'll understand what I wasn't getting.
Regards,
Ed
Ed it finally finally me what you were thinking.
A forest/trees thing on my end.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQhSMpudqGE6z5c758WKK-QneeNZwMWw-pwhcDjVtCE_OxiCMw9)
Stu : In Critical Update Reply #30 there is a red Crawler that moves across the screen that says:
"This also applies to some later N25XP and XPB engines" :cry:
The post is about fuel bleeding of an M35 engine which ONLY also applies to the M25XPB engines and not the M25XPs. The reader can get the wrong idea as there are many more XPs in C34s than the XPB
A thought
Guys, maybe I can clarify.
The preheat solenoid was added on the "A" engine wiring schematic. For example M-25XPA, M-25XPA(C). And of course the "B" series.
K
Quote from: Ron Hill on August 18, 2017, 01:08:00 PM
Stu : In Critical Update Reply #30 there is a red Crawler that moves across the screen that says:
"This also applies to some later N25XP and XPB engines" :cry:
The post is about fuel bleeding of an M35 engine which ONLY also applies to the M25XPB engines and not the M25XPs. The reader can get the wrong idea as there are many more XPs in C34s than the XPB
You're right, of course. The "This also applies to some later M25XP and XPB engines" applies to the bleeding issue. What part of "...
some later M25XP..." is incorrect?
And sure, there were very few XPBs put into C34s.
Just so happens I have a good friend with one, and no end of trouble with it. :cry4` Eventually, she cured it. :clap Ir's on a hull earlier than mine, don't know if it was a repower, could well be.
Stu : TheM25 XP "B" engines are all repowers (in C34s). The engine was developed by Westerbeke after they bought out Oshkosh.
Don't know about your friends "troubles" were, as mine was and still is running great!!
Westerbeke had the smarts to finally put the oil pan drain in the rear of a tilted (installed) engine. Could have made a number of more changes/improvements, but they didn't ask me!
A few thoughts