Catalina 34

Hello. I purchased my beautiful boat some 4 months ago now. My "surveyor" gave only the most cursory inspection of my engine.
I am trying to figure out how much money I need to save in order to bring my boat up to great condition and ready for cruising. Thanks to this amazing forum I know mostly what to look at and what questions to ask.
If I wanted to do a health check (self-inspection) on my entire auxiliary power system, (fuel tank to exhaust), is there a check list?
All I know about my engine thus far is: I run the engine for 15 minutes every weekend. She starts just fine. The oil is black (two shades darker than a crow). The PO told me that he had the engine serviced prior to sale so I am dubious about that. The PO only owned the boat for 3 months and I found out last week that the guy he bought it from had left the boat neglected for many months.
When I took her out recently there was a little vibration that came in and then disappeared as revs increased.
I found just want to know what I am dealing with so I can budget. Once I retire I will not have access to new sources of funds and the boat budget will even dictate whether I can call it quits next Spring.
Alternative to me doing a self-inspection how feasible is it for a "specialist" marine diesel engine shop to come out and do a survey?

Pictures pictures pictures?

When I bought my boat I had a local diesel shop come to the boat and perform a survey of the engine. So I would think you could do the same in your area.

I'm confused though - are you saying you bought the boat knowing you won't have money after you retire next year?

 :D @Jon W.
I am saying that after I retire I will only have a very modest stipend.
All my savings will be going toward bringing the boat up to spec. for cruising from NorCal to Costa Rica. (And back).

@Ken
This is the only picture I have of my engine thus far. I will take more. Knowing what to look for will help me know what pics to take.
I took this one to compare the critical alternator mount fix. The travel seems maxed out, maybe need a shorter belt. I also still have the original pulley.
The other ting I noticed was a breather pipe on top of the engine that looks like a hose should be attached.
Still, reference to my original post, is there an idiot's guide to self-inspecting the engine? (If not, I have an opportunity for somebody  :D)

 Sophie,

Unfortunately I am on the right coast so any diagnosis of things to take care of is going to be virtual. As far as photos the answer is, every square inch that you can photograph will at some point in time be useful to you.   You'll find it amazing how many times you want to go back and reference something or show some buddy what's going on, and bingo you already have a picture of it.

An old salt once told me, when I wanted to do s. PM  on my am-25, "diesels-either they run, or they don't. That's all you need to know." 

And there's a lot of truth to that, but the things that go wrong are typically appurtenances to the engine. The alternator, the heat exchanger, the seawater pump, the harness (we've talked about that),  thermostat, temperature sender, oil pressure switch, etc. etc.  that is, unless an engine has been really abused (run with no oil, no sea water cooling, etc.)

You mentioned the breather hose, that's not currently attached to the valve cover? Under the valve cover there is a filter.   Or are you saying the other and needs to be connected to the air intake?   Rust can be a big issue-I've seen it eat out an oil pan to the point where it leaks.

Did you say you did the alternator bracket upgrade? That looks like an old bracket from the paint. Or did I misunderstand?

kk

Thanks so much Ken. I wondered about the paint too but the PO told me all the critical upgrades had been done. I took the picture to get another opinion.

Sophie : Find a C34/36/30 owner with a M25XP engine and ask them to walk you thru an inspection.
Or spend a few bucks $$ and hire a diesel mechanic to do the same.

From your photo you have the correct alternator bracket for the M25XP engine.

A few thoughts

Quote from: Sophie on July 24, 2017, 01:35:31 PM
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Still, reference to my original post, is there an idiot's guide to self-inspecting the engine? (If not, I have an opportunity for somebody  :D)

Yes, it's called the C34 tech wiki, subject Engine.  Have you read every single last one of those posts?  Really.  It's why we collected them all for you and others.

You should also have downloaded and read the Knowledgebase, engine section.  It's discussed in the Quick Start sticky, with a link to it.

1.  Your hoses are still painted.  Holy Cow!  Replace them all.

2.  Your engine has the corrected alternator bracket. It came with the XP.  Is it aligned properly?  - see the Critical Upgrades topic.

3.  One picture and you are asking for an analysis?  We agree with you, and would need many more photos to even begin.

4.  Going on your planned trip with that alternator won't work.  Read the tech wiki electrical for why.

You are planning a long voyage on a short shoestring.  Almost as bad as sailing to a schedule, but some folks have done it.

Have you read Steve Dolling's summary of his trip from Vancouver to Mexico and all the lessons learned?  He spent over a year getting ready and he'd sailed his boat extensively in British Columbia for a few seasons.  Type in 3596 in the search bar and read away:  those Lessons Learned are very valuable. Oh, here it is:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5270.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5270.0.html)

You have ambitious plans with limited experience.  We're here to help, but it works both ways.  You MUST read, read, read.  Asking for a C34 for Dummies, quite frankly, ain't gonna hack it.

I bought our boat in 1998.  I put off buying a boat with a diesel engine for the 13 years we had our outboard powered Catalina 25.  We bought the boat with known overheating issues.  I read every single Tech Note from 1987 to 1998 and found it was the HX, took it off, cleaned the occluded intake port (NOT the tubes, it's rarely the tubes) and ran it for a year or so until I put in the larger 3 inch HX which your engine should already have.  I knew NOTHING about diesel engines.  I read a LOT, with no one to ask questions of.

I learned with time, just about the time the internet got started.  And you already have a wealth of information at your fingertips.

If you're a C34IA member, those same tech notes are all available to you.  $25 a year.

Go have at it, it's all there for you.

To paraphrase Ron Hill, it's all there, but you have to read it.

sophie,

What year is the XP?

Hx inspection and cleaning - (pressure test while it's out)

A complete hose change out would be good insurance, and if you need a new belt, I'd recommend a Dayco brand "Top Cog" belt -- it's the best one for our engines (JTSO).

Seawater pump - do you have the Ob or Sherwood?

Engine mounts - check for oil on them (deteriorates them), vibration/movement, loose lag bolts, loose studs/nuts, consider changing them to Vetus 75s.

Vibration might be the cutlass, check it for shaft movement.

Repack the stuffin' box as a PM

Exhaust - inspect riser and aqualift (presume you still have that muffler.)  It's know to leak at the seams over time -- and the riser will be rotting out (sooner or later) at the injection elbow.  Consider upgrading the exhaust. How about the hose? OEM?  probably getting time for a new one.  And all fuel lines as well - including deck fill hose and vent hose.

Battery cables are likely too light (OEM was undersized)

I'm not really a transmission person, beyond checking cable/linkage to make making sure all is free and adjusting so the swing is within spec.

Check out www.realitycheck.me (C36) -- an XP is an XP, no matter which boat it's in.

Are you planning to/able to do a lot of this yourself to stretch dollars?

So far it's all been engine-related, not even getting in to the B.O.A.T. itself. Isn't ownership fun?

ken

Thank you Stu, Ken.
I have only had the boat for little more than 3 months and I work long hours, 6 days a week. Therefore my time at the boat has been limited and I wasn't thinking of any kind of trip without getting all the systems fully checked out and upgraded where necessary.
I am a member and have read some of the wiki and tech notes. It is overwhelming. Where do you start? I ask myself.
I have said in earlier posts that I am having the boat hauled next Spring, getting the mast un-stepped and painted, checking the keel wood and bolts and replacing all the thru hulls.
My question about the engine yesterday was because that was something I thought I could make a start on while the boat is in dock and when I am visiting once a week.
I love all the articles in wiki and tech notes but I don't want to miss a trick which is why I was hoping for said idiot's guide to self-inspecting the engine, fuel system and exhaust.
I will take lots of pictures this Saturday when I am there. And I will search the site for engine articles of course.
Thanks again guys.

Quote from: Sophie on July 25, 2017, 07:12:51 AM
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Where do you start? I ask myself.
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Sophie,

That's a very good, even critical, question.

It is also why I wrote the "Quick Start" sticky topic eight years ago.  You are not the first to ask this question.  You're right, we have what, at first glance, appears to be an overwhelming amount of information.  The reason is we KEEP all the important stuff.  :D  Unlike other boating forums which are only "ask & answer" things, like old bulletin boards, our forum and the entire website is searchable.  However, what are very important for starters are the Critical Upgrades, the "101 Topics," the Tech Notes and the wiki.

From the Quick Start:

The REASON for recommending these "reads" is that if you do take a moment to read these "highlights" you may begin to remember having seen any number of important items and can investigate the details later on your own as you needed them, and ask specific questions as they may arise for you. 

I estimate it might take maybe a total of all of four hours of your time to read the Table of Contents for the FAQ Page , Projects Page, download and read the Knowledgebase, OR read the Tech wiki contents pages (just click on "C34 Tech wiki" at the top of each page of this Message Board).  It'd be a great start for each of you.

Sophie, these recommendations are no different than suggesting you read the headlines of a newspaper and ONLY then go back and read the articles you are interested in. If you just read the entire first article in the 'paper, it will simply take much longer to get to the rest of the headlines.  So, please, read the headlines first to get a feel for what's here, then you can make your own choices as to what to read on about the details later.

You've done a great job of asking specific questions since you've joined our little band. :D

Quote from: Sophie on July 24, 2017, 01:20:39 PM
:D @Jon W.
I am saying that after I retire I will only have a very modest stipend.
All my savings will be going toward bringing the boat up to spec. for cruising from NorCal to Costa Rica. (And back).

The "and back" (uphill) part of your journey (if typical conditions for the left coast) could be MUCH more difficult than the trip downhill. I would suggest you make a few voyages down to SoCal (Channel Islands?) or up around the Farrlon Islands AND BACK to shake down you and your boat, before launching into your grand adventure.

Sophie,
Keeping up a boat takes a lot of varied skills, none hard to learn but many.  FWIW you may want to look at Don Casey's book "This Old Boat" next time you are near a Barns and Noble.  I've recommended the book here before and I want to say I get no kick-back from the sales.  It's my go-to book on how to start/do boat projects.

https://www.amazon.com/This-Old-Boat-Second-International/dp/0071477942

I hope dreams become adventures.
Jim

Thanks again all. I will buy that book. Big shout out to Ken for posting the link to the Reality Check blog. This is really useful for M25 owners.
I am taking this afternoon off and going to the boat. Stand by for a bunch of photos.  :D

Sophie,

Understand that your M-25XP, is 99-44/100% pure(ly an M-25.)  So the link was meant for "you." 

It's the same engine -- with very few differences, which do not have any substantive bearing on your question about inspecting and PM-ing it.  When the time comes if/when you find any particular issues, I can point those out. 

If your readings find references to an M-25XPA or M-25XPA(C), they are also the "same" engine.

BTW, that IS NOT SO for the M-25XPB or M-25XPB(C), as they are a completely different specie.


kk

Quote from: Sophie on July 24, 2017, 02:28:34 PM

Thanks so much Ken. I wondered about the paint too but the PO told me all the critical upgrades had been done. I took the picture to get another opinion.

Apologies Sophie.  I misread your prior post -- I took it that you YOU did the upgrade (so expected to see new paint,) not that you were verifying she has the new bracket.  The paint leans toward it being OE on your XP.

Stu's comments about how much info is here is right on.  I come over from the C-30 side, but our engines are identical.  We even have (at least) one 4-cyl Universal stuffed into our tiny engine compartment (with, I will say Ron, as of mid-July a wet exhaust riser!!)

Let me opine a bit on your basic question.

It was looking for, I think, a way to prioritize your be$$$$$t bang now, and work on the le$$ critical later 

Unfortunately it's fairly unpredictable.  JTSO, except for 3 criticals (further below) one part on this iron genny is about as likely as another to fail (or not.)  It's not like there is a designed failure point.  Well, I take that back -- due to some bad decisions the alt bracket and harness were designed to fail from the beginning.  Somewhat due to Universal motors, somewhat due to CTY "errors" (I'll call them for lack of better word.)

For example, the Hx or the seawater pump are as likely to fail (or not) as an exhaust riser -- it can depend on location (salt/fresh), use (hours), maintenance, abuse, etc. -- over which you had no input/control.  i.e., there's nothing inherently "bad" about the XP's BASE Kubota engine that's historically an issue (mechanically.)  It's a solid, well-proven power plant, used in THOUSANDS of applications (both land- and sea-based; for commercial, agriculture, private, recreation -- as well as both propulsion and power (generator) use.) 

But the marineizing of the base Kb engine has caused (very few) issues.   Even with that, the marineized XP is a workhorse if treated relatively kindly (not even needed to be babied.)  Still, I'm amazed by owners who know no more (and want it that way) than how to turn the key -- and when there's a problem will honestly not know what an "impeller" is or forbid where one is located.  And when you look at their engines, you have to wonder why/how it ever started in the first place.  Ok, off the divergent soapbox.

So, on the XP there's only (from memory) three INHERENT concerns -- if it has the exploding alt bracket, the OE harness and panel ammeter, and the 2" Hx (JTSO in that order.)  And also on the M-25XP(C)/35(C), the front engine mounts.  Those concerns are mostly independent of owner use/abuse.

So, what does this have to do with your original question? 

Well, Windows for Dummies taught us the basics, but could not predict when a dreaded blue screen would pop up and ruin our day.  That was in a different text.  Same with the M-25/XP/XPA/XPA(C). 

For the 4 hours absorbing the highlights, you can invest X*4 hours researching and digesting info on a particular problem, depending on X's complexity/severity (and you won't necessarily find a consensus.)  Every owner has an opinion (a very few are unfortunately without basis in fact, but also very thankfully the majority are grounded in fact.)  And also recognize that it's a "collection," some info is old but still best practice, and there's other info where there's a newer/better way.  Since (maybe unfortunately? or fortunately? depending on one's perspective) it's open source -- so there's oftentimes conflicting info (the "old/outdated/incorrect" isn't necessarily, I'll call it "removed/corrected" (which isn't the best term -- but will have to do.)  So for topic X, you might find a blender drink that's tough to separate out what's artificial coloring vs organic fruit.  That's not a criticism of how the the whole forum/TW/TN shebang operates, just a reality check (compared to possibly other highly moderated, tightly controlled forums/information sources.)

Anyhew, that's where you to come back and lean on the current experts before doing anything that's "irreversible."  But when doing so, give them as complete information as possible to help them help you.

kk

Sophie : You have VOLUMNS of information at your finger tips.  As Stu mentioned you have this web site with WiKi there are also almost 30 years of information in the Mainsheet Tech Notes!!

I haven't seen a NEW C34 problem in over 15 years that hasn't already been written-up!!!

It's all documented and there to be read.

A few thoughts

Quote from: KWKloeber on July 25, 2017, 04:17:21 PM
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So, on the XP there's only (from memory) three INHERENT concerns -- if it has the exploding alt bracket, the OE harness and panel ammeter, and the 2" Hx (JTSO in that order.)  And also on the M-25XP(C)/35(C), the front engine mounts.  Those concerns are mostly independent of owner use/abuse.
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Except:

1. The XP already had the alternator bracket revised as part of the OEM change to the engine from the M25.  ONLY the M25s needed the bracket replaced.

2.  The wiring harness has ALWAYS been a problem, regardless of engine.

3.  The ammeter was almost completely gone by the time Catalina started putting XPs into C34s.

4.  The 2 inch HX came with the M25.  The XPs all had 3 inch HXs.

Look, Sophie, you can listen to Ken ramble, or you can spend the four hours reading the highlights and choose what YOU think YOU need to know.  None of us can know that.

And, FWIW and BTW and WADR, that link you thought was so helpful from Ken is ALREADY in the engine tech wiki!!!!!!!!! :

Rebuilding an Exhaust Riser (also from Dave and a C36 skipper [previously posted]) http://www.realitycheck.me/building-...aust-riser.htm

Geez...

That's why we continue to suggest you try doing what we, uhm, suggested. :D

Good luck.

Quote from: Stu Jackson on July 25, 2017, 08:47:20 PM

Except:

1. The XP already had the alternator bracket revised as part of the OEM change to the engine from the M25.  ONLY the M25s needed the bracket replaced.
2.  The wiring harness has ALWAYS been a problem, regardless of engine.
3.  The ammeter was almost completely gone by the time Catalina started putting XPs into C34s.
4.  The 2 inch HX came with the M25.  The XPs all had 3 inch HXs.

Sophie, to clarify: My point (not made clearly enough) was there is really only 3 things that can be predicted with fair certainty to be an INHERENT issues on the XP engine.  The other failure aspects are highly unpredictable.

Stu, to keep the remainder fact-based:

(1) Not true. 
Exploding alt brackets were on M-25, M-18, and M-25XP (but not every) engines.  However, it WAS fully replaced by the time the M-25XPA and M-25XPA(C) went into production.

(3) True.  Thanks for bracketing that.  The switch to a VM occurred (I believe) on ALL Catalinas in 1988, but while the XP was still in production until 1993.  So, again that's an issue on the XPs (bu tnot all engines.)  i.e., same scenario as the other two inherent issues.

(4) Not true.
The 3" Hx upgrade pertained specifically to (but not all) M-25s and M-25XPs (and M-30s, 5425s, and 5432s.)  Whether any 2"-ers were installed on any C-34 XP engines is something I could not attest to and therefore did not.

(2) Thanks for trying to (un)bracket that (implied?) specificity to the XP.  But not true.  Well not completely true (better than not completely false?)

First, of course I didn't state that the harness was an issue on ONLY the M-25XP engine.  I didn't expand any more because it served no purpose to list where it may or may not be an issue on other Universal engines or other boats.  But, since you raised the question....

Secondly and thirdly the statement is inaccurate -- why?

a) except for ONE specific failure point, the harness IS NOT an inherent problem on the B-series Universal engines.

b) it was NOT an issue inherent to the XP (or other) engine.  One could infer from your statement that Universal Motors was the bad boy.  Not so.  If was inherent to the INSTALLATION of the engine.  i.e., if another boat manufacturer (or smart Catalina owner when placing the order) used a voltmeter rather than an ammeter, the harness was not the an inherent charging nuisance and (at least) was not the inherent fire hazard.  And similarly, boat manufacturers like Ericson who bought Universal's harness (unlike on our Catalinas with plugs molded out of [reportedly but not confirmed] HOT GLUE,) they did not self-destruct from the engine heat (see comparison of plugs below.)  I know Catalina owners with universal engines that have a non-Catalina panel and the Universal harness, and there is no safety issue.

So to remain fact-based I will be more precise -- the ammeter/harness issue (really two separate yet related ones) is inherent to how Catalina installed the harness and gauges, NOT to the XP engine itself.

Sophie since you are new to this, the black plug below is Universal's (safe) plug (earlier ones where hard white plastic.)  The amber half is Catalina's (unsafe, fire hazard) plug.  The danger is inherent to Catalina's choice, not Universal's engine.  For example, the 3rd photo is an M-25 Ericson installation -- notice (center right) the OEM Universal cockpit harness and (safe) plug (no hot glue melted from the engine heat.)

The last is my plug, exactly how it came off of Catalina's installation.

To keep it simple I avoided getting into the complexity of the harness/plug issue -- but since Stu raised the ugly ducking I had to get more specific to address the inaccuracy.

(http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=136360&d=1479408139)
(http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=136361&d=1479408139)
(http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/attachment.php?attachmentid=13578&stc=1)
(http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8406.0;attach=6101;image)

Stu, thanks for bracketing my comments on #3 relative to a voltmeter installs. 
Also, being a Universal dealer I can quickly point you to appropriate locations where you can (if you'd like to) verify #1 & #4 above about the Universal M series.  #2 needs no further verification, it's in the photo evidence.

Stu and Sophie both, my purpose was to explain (before going off and wallowing in reading) why certain issues we run across, are as they are and are predictable, while certain others ones are unpredictable.  That is NOT explained in the readings (well at least that I have seen.)  There's a lot of confusion and many misconceptions about our engines (like for instance that they are re-purposed tractor engines which they are not,) attributing things --like an inadequate heat exchanger, iron-body sea water pump, or exploding alt bracket-- on Catalina Yachts when Frank didn't choose any of those) and vice-versa, attributing issues (like the melting plugs) to Universal, when it was the installation that caused the problem. 

I tried to throw some fact onto some misconceptions.  Choose to read it (or not.)  At one's leisure. (Or not.)  Before, during, or after reading the mass of other data. (Or not.)  I choose to understand WHY things are as they are.  Others owners? maybe not so much.  It's YBAYDK -- use it when and as often as you want to.

kk

Quote from: Stu Jackson on July 25, 2017, 08:47:20 PM

Look, Sophie, you can listen to Ken ramble, or you can spend the four hours reading the highlights and choose what YOU think YOU need to know.  None of us can know that.

And, FWIW and BTW and WADR, that link you thought was so helpful from Ken is ALREADY in the engine tech wiki!!!!!!!!! :

Rebuilding an Exhaust Riser (also from Dave and a C36 skipper [previously posted]) http://www.realitycheck.me/building-...aust-riser.htm

Stu,

Why in your mind is it a binary choice?  Can someone get assistance AND research for themselves as well?

Things I suggest you might want to think over:

Why in your mind and suggestions does it repeatedly need to be an "Either do it MY (or our) way, or it's  wrong?" 

Isn't the purpose of information exchange to enhance and expand learning, rather than funnel it down?

Is the only valid answer or direction, what you, Ron, and others have already written down?  Sure, there's no comparison to the vast amount of experience and data out there and there's no way to minimize that effort or results.  But why try to SHAME someone into doing only what YOU feel is the correct path to learning or gathering engine information?  it is really THAT critical to you?  Maybe it's the best approach for you, maybe it's best for them.  Or, MAYBE it isn't.  Possibly they may be mature enough to decide for themselves without being brow beaten into one approach or another.

Maybe some people appreciate an initial attempt to personalize a response, rather than simply the "Go read everything yourself" approach?

Stu, it's your choice whether to continue it.  But, over the past year some C-34-ers have emailed and/or PM'd me that they (don't worry folks I won't ever name names) no longer enjoy participating here.  Why me, I don't know - I don't have a 34 and I have nothing to do with the association per se.  But, they have said that they use this forum as a last resort to ask a question because they can't stand feeling intentionally shut down at the first asking of a "stupid" or alternately very specific question -- and are told to "go find out yourself." 

That's your audience's feedback, not my saying that.

If that's your bag, so be it, but can you believe it really helps (especially new) owners to apply the "There's my way or the highway" learning approach?

And so defensive about posting a link? Really. Really?
Even pseudo Canadians are supposed to mellow out, not harden up like us Yankees, 'eh?  Tips up. More Labatts, my friend.

"Some thoughts"

Permanently signing off from this specific soapbox,
kk

I just read through these replies after posting requested pictures in a different topic.
Wow. Radio silence commencing.

Stu & Guys : I have found the trailer connectors on 1992 production C34s with the M35 (30hp) engine.  So everyone needs to make sure they
don't have those gummy connectors that WILL fail and cause a fire.
The only "dead give a way for sure" is if the engine instrument panel has an Ammeter !!!!

An IMPORTANT thought