I could use some help from experienced Catalina owners about a problem I'm having with the oil pressure/high temperature buzzer at the console (newer version located below the wheel).
My boat has been on the hard the past two weeks, and I went to run the motor to heat up the oil for an oil change. Upon turning the key, the alarm came on (as it does sometimes, but not always). But after starting up, the alarm continued. I know it was not over temperature because it had just started up, temp gauge was still pegged at the bottom, water coming out of exhaust, and IR temperature gun showed no sign of overheating on the engine. Also, neither the oil pressure warning light or high temperature light were illuminated.
The buzzer has never gone off in this way throughout the season - only since the boat has been on the hard. I started the motor about 10 times, and the alarm was on for about 8 of the starts. So the problem seems to be intermittent, but happening about 80% of the time.
Other info:
- When the motor first fires, tach goes up to 1000 for a split second, then drops to zero if the buzzer is on. During the two startups that the alarm did not sound, one time the tach read properly, and the other time it did not.
Outside temperature is in the mid 50s. Glow plugs were heated during first startup. Slight voltage drop indicated that they were active.
During the season I did notice a slight problem with the audio alarm, but it was different from this. When I first turned on the key prior to pressing the start button, sometimes the alarm would not sound immediately. When this happened, the alarm would usually come on when I first pressed the start button, then go off a second later after the engine started. As best as I can recall, the audible alarm generally would come on after stopping the motor until I turned the key off (as it should), but there might have been a time or two when it did not. In general, it seemed like this problem with the buzzer would be more likely to happen when things were cold, but I'm not sure of that. I have this issue on my list to fix, and if it's related to my new problem maybe I'll get a two-fer.
The simultaneous problem with the audio buzzer and the tachometer seems to me to point to an electrical connection, perhaps at a corroded common ground. (Would appreciate you help in telling me where this might be located.) Also, the disappearance of the problem when things were warm could indicate that the corroded connection would heat up and then start to conduct, which of course could be a cause for other concerns.
At present I have not changed the oil due to other problems with my lousy pumping equipment. And I have not winterized because I know I'll want to turn over the motor again. So I may have some time to try things before next spring if you have ideas.
It seems the Universal manual isn't the greatest help with this, since Catalina uses a custom control panel. Universal's "Captain Control Panel" looks pretty close, but not an exact match for Catalina's. And the Catalina manual seems to have nothing on this. So I come to you for advice. If there is something I'm missing in the manual, or a better version of the manual online, please point me in the right direction.
EDIT: I just started up one more time. This time the buzzer stayed on, but the tach worked. Arrgggh!
It's PROBABLY a failed oil switch, but that's not 100 per-cent -- just the most likely place to start. Forget the temp alarm and light for now. More on that later ***
First, the panel isn't that important here, it's the two "Catalina" engine/harness schematics you need (35B"C" stands for "Catalina" wiring standard, opposed to the Westerbeke wiring standard.) See the 35B Service Manual.
Second, I'll admit that I get cranky when I see the crap put out that causes us problems down the road. JTSO and I'm entitled to it.
To your problem:
The panel lamps are wired in parallel with the alarm so the alarm can go off and never know one is burned out or whatever. Does the oil light illuminate (along w/ alarm) when the key is turned? (The temp light shouldn't light and the temp portion of the alarm shouldn't go off.) Only the low oil alarm and light (no pressure.) These type problems are harder to troubleshoot due to CTY's prior and continuing poor documentation of electrical systems.:thumb: Plus it's idiotic cost-saving choice to not install an oil pressure gauge :thumb: like Universal Motors provided (and Westerbeke continues to provide) on its panels.:clap
I installed a gauge on my panel and suggest everyone should.:idea::idea:
The Wb's wiring on the B engines is so convoluted, I can't even explain the oil alarm except to say it back-feeds a wire to ground though a resistor and auto-reset circuit breaker (not allowed by ABYC:shock::shock:, but ABYC doesn't concern Westerbeke much on the old engines or new B engines.:thumb:)
To check the switch, remove the 2 wires to the switch, short the female terminals together (for a good connection I suggest a jumper wire w/ 2 male quick connect terminals, rather than taping terminals together.) If your alarm problems go away, the switch has filed and replace it -- if not we'll dig deeper.
Or, the switch terminals might be loose or broken off -- see this and prior posts here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9115.msg66799.html#msg66799
Suggest you install the plug/cover I show on that thread, with dielectric grease on the terms to protect them. Make SURE the harness is tied so there's NO movement in the wires to the switch. THIS may be an issue since there's occurrences of broken terminals. I dissected a B engine harness and found that Westerbeke used stiff UNTINNED SAE wire on its harness, not UL 1426 type III (most flexible) tinned marine wire.:shock::shock:
But we'll give Wb another pass for once again non-ABYC-compliant crap :thumb: when they could just "do it right."
***The temp warning/light ....
Understand that the temp gauge is completely independant of the hi-temp switch and alarm. The alarm circuit operates by completing a connection to engine ground through the temp switch. To check it, simply ground the wire at the temp switch -- the alarm and light should go on. If they both do not, then there's an issue with the alarm or harness or panel wiring, and need to get into it further.
BTW, did you measure what you need for the tranny dipstick sealing ring?
-kk
Breakin Away, our Dolphina is just one year younger than yours, and we had a similiar issue a couple of seasons ago. Turning the key resulted in the light and alarm to go off, but that would stop once the engine was started. Initially I was told that had to do with possibly slightly low oil levels, but our marina mechanic actually found the sensor was lose. Later that season the alarm came on and did not turn off. We were quite worried and sailed as much as we could that day and only motored in at the end (at which time it didn't alarm). The marina found the sensor to be bad and replaced it. To date, we're had no problem.
Ken and Fred,
Thanks for your help. As always, a few additional questions and more information:
Until tonight, I had never seen the oil pressure light illuminate under any circumstances. But I went back to the boat after dark tonight to pick something up and figured it would be good to check it in the dark to be sure. I energized the console and turned the key on. The oil pressure light came on immediately, but was so dim that there is no way it would be visible in daylight. (See attached picture.) Interestingly, the buzzer alarm hesitated for a few seconds before it came on, but once on it stayed on. Is the weak illumination and/or the delayed alarm buzzer a sign of a poor electrical contact? Could I have bumped something somewhere on the motor when reaching around for the dipstick hole?
Do you think any of this has a connection to the tachometer problem, which only started malfunctioning when this alarm problem happened? Could all of these problems (buzzer, light, tach) be related to a single bad connection somewhere? Where does the tachometer connect to the motor?
From searching parts lists, it looks like the switch that you guys referenced and the sender are two different parts. I can only find the sender on the manual's parts identification page. I see a breakdown of the switch in this site's downloadable service manual, but it doesn't give the location (and the manual is for M25, not M35). Where is the switch located on the M35B? I can't find its location in any documentation.
From the M25 service manual, it looks like the switch is a spring loaded contact that opens a circuit when under suitable pressure, and the spring closes the circuit when not under pressure (hence the buzz and the light). Its hesitancy to come on at first, then its refusal to turn off, suggests it might be "gunked up" or something. Can this part be removed and cleaned? Is it possible that new, clean oil could eliminate the problem? Also, whether I try this first or just do a replacement, does the oil need to be emptied before doing the job? (Ironically, I just took a 4 day hands-on diesel troubleshooting workshop last week, and learned how to do a whole bunch of stuff. I learned to check injector timing and adjust valves, but diagnosing and fixing oil and temp sensors were not covered.)
It sounds like I need to be planning to purchase a new oil switch. Does anyone know if there is a suitable Kubota part available? Up here in Pennsylvania there are a lot more tractor stores than marine stores.
Ken - Thanks for your prior offer to help with the fiber washer. After much searching, I finally found a fiber washer for the transmission dipstack - 40 cents at a True Value store that I dropped in on about an hour from my house. It was 16 mm ID, and about 2 mm wide. I found it a few days ago, and put it in this morning. FYI, the rubber O-ring held up OK while I searched for the fiber washer.
One last piece of information:
I read advice somewhere (maybe here, but can't remember) to drill a hole in your oil filter to drain it before removing it, but to be sure your oil filter would come off before doing this. Even though I wasn't sure I would drill a hole, I decided to check the tightness of the filter before warming up the oil. So I got a wrench and turned it about 1/8" to verify it would come off, then I tightened it back again. Could any of this activity have damaged the oil filter seal thus lowering oil pressure? I see no signs of leakage.
Of course, the most nervewracking part is needing to warm up the oil before I pump it out, knowing an alarm is going off telling me not to run the motor. So I guess I need to convince myself that the sensor really is bad before running the motor again. And if I need to remove the oil to replace the sensor, I'm sort of up a creek.
I'd hire a mechanic, but Philly area is not a place that's known for good pleasure boat mechanics. I'm open to suggestions if someone knows a person. Meanwhile, I value any advice you guys could provide.
Faaaagedabout and don't look at any M25 manual -- they have absolutely nothing to do with the B series engines.
Oil sw location is in the parts manual on the TechWiki. (ie, M-25XPB, M35B)
http://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Manuals
I just retitled some of the manuals and tried to upload the B series Service Manual but it's too large, and need to break it up to post it. The schematic is attached.
Just don't overthink this! First ck the switch as I said how to! if you want to verify, screw a manual pressure gauge into the switch port (1/8" - 27 NPT thread.)
This is one of the VERY FEW times I say, "replace" rather than "troubleshoot" (my usual rant to not start hapzardly replacing parts before nailing down the cause.) Just DON'T mess with anything else (like tach wiring) before you fix the switch -- otherwise you may nevah find the root cause of things.
No, a common connection is 99.999% NOT your problem.
Dunno what you mean by sender -- there's (unfortunately) no oil pressure gauge, so no sender, just a pressure-operated on/off switch.
Suggest you go ahead and find a new switch -- 99.999% that's your problem. (If not, then keep a spare, it doesn't have a shelf life.)
You don't need to drain oil to change the switch.
No you can't service it, replace it, about 30 buck$.
No the switch isn't a Kb -- and it's different than than the M-25 switch (1-terminal, normally closed, that 'makes' to engine ground,) the B series is a 2-terminal (normally open, isolated from the engine ground.) It's 1/8" NPT thread, closes around 10 psi. You MIGHT be able to match up an aftermarket (but good luck, I haven't found one yet.)
No you didn't screw up anything w/ the filter. Don't overthink this. 99.999% you have a bad switch.
The alternator "A/C" or "Tach" terminal supplies the tach signal. The tach counts the alternating current pulses from the alternator and does the math to convert it to engine RPM. Your tach issue MIGHT clear up --- dunno, but there is an interconnection from the oil switch (as I said I can't adequately explain in one sitting the convoluted Westerbeke wiring.) It's just an example of making something more difficult than it needs to be, and adding another failure point that doesn't need to be there (Wb's "better idea.")
-kk
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 13, 2016, 09:42:48 PM
<SNIP>...but there is an interconnection from the oil switch (as I said I can't adequately explain in one sitting the convoluted Westerbeke wiring.) It's just an example of making something more difficult than it needs to be, and adding another failure point that doesn't need to be there (Wb's "better idea.")
That was a great explanation, thanks, Ken.
Breaking Away:
1. the oil switch and glow plug wiring is what is interconnected. Read the "Critical Upgrade" topic which covers it in detail.
2. Re the transmission dipstick, glad to hear you found a solution. Could you possibly go back and close the loop on the earlier topic and report it there so when someone in the far distant future searches and finds it they have the answer? Thanks.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on November 14, 2016, 06:10:45 AM
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 13, 2016, 09:42:48 PM
<SNIP>...but there is an interconnection from the oil switch (as I said I can't adequately explain in one sitting the convoluted Westerbeke wiring.) It's just an example of making something more difficult than it needs to be, and adding another failure point that doesn't need to be there (Wb's "better idea.")
That was a great explanation, thanks, Ken.
Breaking Away:
1. the oil switch and glow plug wiring is what is interconnected. Read the "Critical Upgrade" topic which covers it in detail.
2. Re the transmission dipstick, glad to hear you found a solution. Could you possibly go back and close the loop on the earlier topic and report it there so when someone in the far distant future searches and finds it they have the answer? Thanks.
Stu,
Yes, correct (and additionally is the fuel lift pump and the alternator field excite circuit.) (I'm avoiding discussing the complete wiring so at this point AchyBreaky focuses first on the switch -- i.e., Occam's razor, as it were.)
Can we get a TrueValue SKU number and/or was 16/20mm the spec or measured w/ a caliper?
kk
Ken,
Thanks for your patient advice, which I will follow closely. First, I'll order a new pressure switch (#037323). Next time I go to the boat I'll attempt to disconnect it and shunt the leads to see if it generates an alarm. I'm also curious to see if the warning light is any brighter with the shunted connection.
From the parts manual, it looks like the switch is in a very inaccessible place for our boats (my boat has no access panel through the head to port side of motor). Any hints on how to see and work back there? Borescope? GoPro on selfie stick?
Also, it's clear that there are elbow fittings and tubing leading from the block to the switch. Any recommended cleaning or maintenance of that while I'm back there? Should I just remove the whole assembly?
Also, the perspective of the schematic in the parts manual is very confusing. I immediately focused on the dipstick, which I swear it shows going into the port forward corner, not aft starboard. This makes it look like an Escher drawing, and really threw off my perspective. (I briefly hoped that the switch was on the starboard side, which is much more accessible.) Is this correct on the drawing? Did Catalina relocate the dipstick due to the slanted installation of the motor?
I replaced the oil pressure sending unit on Shamrock, another 2001. Was easy enough. If I remember correctly can get to it from the front under the engine and from the top port side. Think just in front of the starter.
Jim
Here are photos of the M35B
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4588.msg26957.html#msg26957
Quote from: Breakin Away on November 14, 2016, 08:42:01 AM
Ken,
Thanks for your patient advice, which I will follow closely. First, I'll order a new pressure switch (#037323). Next time I go to the boat
(1)
I'll attempt to disconnect it and shunt the leads to see if it generates an alarm. I'm also curious to see if the warning light is any brighter with the shunted connection.
(2)
From the parts manual, it looks like the switch is in a very inaccessible place for our boats (my boat has no access panel through the head to port side of motor). Any hints on how to see and work back there? Borescope? GoPro on selfie stick?
(3)
Also, it's clear that there are elbow fittings and tubing leading from the block to the switch. Any recommended cleaning or maintenance of that while I'm back there? Should I just remove the whole assembly?
(4)
Also, the perspective of the schematic in the parts manual is very confusing. I immediately focused on the dipstick, which I swear it shows going into the port forward corner, not aft starboard. This makes it look like an Escher drawing, and really threw off my perspective. (I briefly hoped that the switch was on the starboard side, which is much more accessible.) Is this correct on the drawing? Did Catalina relocate the dipstick due to the slanted installation of the motor?
(1)
Shorting the wire terminals *should* eliminate the alarm and light (and run the lift pump.)
Disconnecting them *should* activate the alarm/light (no lift pump, unless preheating -- i.e., glow plugs are on.)
The switch is normally open (w/ key on), causing light/alarm.
Then (running, w/ oil pressure) it closes, no alarm/light. So, if the switch fails (or no oil pressure,) it's fail-safe and you get an alarm.
As I said, convoluted Wb wiring. I know that you and Stu are conspiring to get me to explain the convolutions that Wb went thru to make this difficult! LOL
If the *shoulds* don't operate as I say, then there's a deeper problem
But 99.999% a new sw will fix it. There's no way to actually test the switch, well theoretically you can, but difficult.
If you want to verify it's bad, then need a pressure gauge on the port for the switch to ck oil pressure.
ONE OTHER wiring thing -- if you lose all power to your gauges, etc., don't rip the panel apart -- it's ok. There's a resettable circuit breaker high on back, stbd side of engine.
(2)
No Joy getting to it. Sorry, how to remove it isn't covered in this lesson.. You have to buy the entire course. LOL :!:
(I have a C30, no help from me.) I don't see a place that the bracket could be relocated on-engine to be more convenient. :x If I Had to deal with it on my 30, by now I'd have ripped the hose out with a vengeance, gotten a longer one, and mounted the bracket to the engine compartment. Or, I don't know on the B series, whether, if putting a switch back onto the engine block (behind the coolant hose,) you can get to it with a socket. I probably would have also considered that, and using the Kb switch (single pole, normally open) and doing away with the Wb's convoluted wiring (as Ron did with his repower.) IMHO, the hose is another Wb failure point -- mine deteriorated and leaked (M-25) and so I scrapped it and relocated the switch back to the engine block.)
(3)
YBYC, bs long as things are tight and no leak, there's nothing to service.
(4)
Ahhhh, good eye. You noticed Wb's snafu. That's the wrong diagram, the stick shown is OEM Kb, not relocated to the stbd-back. Wb uses stock Kb pasts diagrams and modiifies them. They missed that one. In the old M-25 manuals you can sometimes tell what parts Universal added (hand drawn in.)
Understand that CTY has nothing to do with the engine, it's just dropped in, bolted in place, and the trailer plugs connected to the panel harness. They would have gotten ripped out a long time ago also -- another unnecessary failure point.
What I don't know, is on the B series, how the dipstick got to the stbd side. On the M-25/XP I know -- (contrary to popular belief) Kb supplied it that way (enters thru a different oil pan than what's on its tractor engines.) If you look at the Kb parts manual on the Wiki, there's yet another stick/bracket shown. Kb has different configurations of "appurtenances" (intake manifolds, oil pans, valve covers, dipsticks, etc.,) depending on who orders the engine to install in whatnot. Probably when Kb designed the B series blocks, it put in two ports, plugging whichever isn't used. Kb could also have have supplied and shipped it to Wb's spec with a remote oil switch/hose -- who knows (would be cheaper for Wb to pay Kb to do it, than Wb to do it USA side.)
Let us know how it goes.
-kk
I left work early today heading to New Jersey to buy the switch. I really did want to buy from a brick and mortar store, and there's a big Catalina dealer there who had the part in stock. Google Maps said it was an hour away, and I thought I was beating rush hour. I drove for 40 minutes, and Google Maps said it was still over an hour away, so I gave up, went home, and ordered it off of ebay. I tried.
On the way home I stopped at the boat, taking advantage of the rare opportunity to beat the darkness after work. I reached back under the port side of the motor to feel for the switch, and I felt the end of a wire dangling down on my wrist. I looked at it and it was the female end of the flat-blade connector with a broken tab in it. So that's the problem - the tab broke off the switch. I assume that the tab had been "hanging on by a thread", allowing the motor to run a couple final times without the alarm.
While I wait for the new switch to arrive, I'll make a shunt and try to test the alarm with shunt on and off.
Still unexplained is the malfunctioning tach, and also the very dim alarm light. But one thing at a time. I'll dig into the wiring schematic a little more to get more familiar. A quick glance at the schematic looks like an open oil switch might possibly cause some interference with the alternator voltage going to the tachometer. I'm not sure because I don't fully understand the alternator symbols in the schematic.
I was surprised that the glow plug needs to be activated for lift pump to operate - I had missed that part in the manual and critical upgrades. All summer and early fall I started up without heating the glow plugs at all. I'd just turn on the key and press the start button. The manual describes a two-button installation that requires both buttons to be pushed, but Catalina's panel only has one button and doesn't require you to turn turn the key past the detente position to engage the starter, and the schematic suggests that also.
One of my complaints is that there are so many versions of the manual out there. My hardcopy version that came with the boat is 1997 vintage, and is a different part number (#200494) from the ones online (#200550). One key difference is that my parts identification page clearly shows a sender (not a switch), and it's in a different location from where the switch is on my motor. And, infuriatingly, my 1st edition 1997 version covers models M35A and M35B, but the 2nd edition 2015 version on Westerbeke's site covers M35A but not M35B. I'm left with trying to piece things together from a hodgepodge of conflicting manuals.
Quote from: Breakin Away on November 14, 2016, 08:09:58 PM..............................................................
.........................................................................................
I was surprised that the glow plug needs to be activated for lift pump to operate - I had missed that part in the manual and critical upgrades. All summer and early fall I started up without heating the glow plugs at all. I'd just turn on the key and press the start button. The manual describes a two-button installation that requires both buttons to be pushed, but Catalina's panel only has one button and doesn't require you to turn turn the key past the detente position to engage the starter, and the schematic suggests that also.
One of my complaints is that there are so many versions of the manual out there. My hardcopy version that came with the boat is 1997 vintage, and is a different part number (#200494) from the ones online (#200550). One key difference is that my parts identification page clearly shows a sender (not a switch), and it's in a different location from where the switch is on my motor. And, infuriatingly, my 1st edition 1997 version covers models M35A and M35B, but the 2nd edition 2015 version on Westerbeke's site covers M35A but not M35B. I'm left with trying to piece things together from a hodgepodge of conflicting manuals.
Rick,
I fully commiserate along with you. What we have been able to do on this website over the course of the past 15 or so years is to piece together as much DATA as we can, thanks to the helpful skippers who post here and many who have contributed and posted a plethora of manuals.
There is also NO guarantee that the manual and/or wiring diagram that came with YOUR boat,
EVEN WHEN NEW, reflected what may have been built in some manner!!! :shock: The most likely culprits are the wiring diagrams and, thus, the operation of the boats.
Your example is a good one, and is reflected in the Critical Upgrade topic, here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg41829.html#msg41829
The links in that post go to a very pertinent discussion called:
Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem?? M35 Engines & Fuel Pump Wiring
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3347.45.html
Reply #54 on page 4 of that topic begins to discuss the wiring to the fuel pump, how it works, issues with bleeding, and continues to end up describing exactly the issue that Dave addressed in his question.In that long discussion, I pointed out the differences between the two quoted wiring diagrams and explained the differences between the schematic and the physical wiring diagram.
Both of them purported to be about the same boat wiring, but the darned diagrams
WERE, electrically, different!!! :cry4` :cry4` :cry4` If you care to get into the guts of the discussion, read replies #52 and 55.
Indeed, Reply #52 discusses your point exactly about the glow plugs.
I have always suggested that the diagrams should reflect what is there, but each of us should spend the time to find out what is actually there on our boats. And that's even before what some superb or dumba$$ PO could have done, right? :D
It is wise that you are doing so, and your contributions in this thread should help others to recognize the effort that is required to do so.
I worked for forty years in the construction business, and made every effort I could to assure the owners that the "Record Documents" they received from the builders actually reflected what was installed. It took a LOT of effort, because altogether too many engineers didn't bother to specify the requirements for those "Record Documents" in enough detail, and by the "end of the job" the engineers were, unfortunately, focused elsewhere. I was proud that my owners got what they paid for, and not just a bunch of meaningless paperwork.
In most cases, Catalina got it right. In some cases, we have identified and recorded on this website just what they didn't and how it affects skippers.
And new owners of "experienced" vessels may not have had the opportunity to get into these levels of details with the POs, if the PO even existed, i.e., buying from a dealer.
Thanks again for your contributions.
FWIW, Reply #66 on page 5 of that Critical Upgrade link discusses bad buzzers.
Have at it!!! :clap :clap :clap
I've been working my way through that part of the critical upgrades, but with so many side-threads to read it's slow going in my environment of constant interruptions.
FYI, during my marine diesel class last week I started up a generic (non-Catalina) Yanmar engine for the first time, and was shocked to see that the preheat and start buttons are cascaded, which means the starter motor will not turn over unless you also are heating the glow plugs. That seems to be an even worse wiring scheme than Catalina has, and bound to lead to problems if people have a weak starter battery.
Quote from: Breakin Away on November 14, 2016, 08:09:58 PM
- the tab broke off the switch.
I love it when I'm 99.999% correct. :D
Get the Autozone switch cover gizmo I posted and save yourself a future headache. Also make sure there's no movement transferred from the harness.
Quote
Still unexplained is the malfunctioning tach, and also the very dim alarm light. But one thing at a time. I'll dig into the wiring schematic a little more to get more familiar. A quick glance at the schematic looks like an open oil switch might possibly cause some interference with the alternator voltage going to the tachometer. I'm not sure because I don't fully understand the alternator symbols in the schematic.
I *think* the light might be getting back fed with low voltage, maybe from the alt field excite. Just a WAG (0.0009%.) May be a second problem in there.
Quote
I was surprised that the glow plug needs to be activated for lift pump to operate -
The switch powers the lift pump, so (in Westerbeke's world) no fuel is delivered to the engine until there's oil pressure (Engine-saving feature,) so the preheat solenoid temporarily powers the lift pump. In reality *FWIU* (not having a 34,) the tank still feeds the engine w/o the lift pump. Or there's enuf fuel at the injector pump to get you going.
Quote
The manual describes a two-button installation that requires both buttons to be pushed, but Catalina's panel only has one button and doesn't require you to turn turn the key past the detente position to engage the starter, and the schematic suggests that also.
One of my complaints is that there are so many versions of the manual out there. My hardcopy version that came with the boat is 1997 vintage, and is a different part number (#200494) from the ones online (#200550). One key difference is that my parts identification page clearly shows a sender (not a switch), and it's in a different location from where the switch is on my motor.
And, infuriatingly, my 1st edition 1997 version covers models M35A and M35B, but the 2nd edition 2015 version on Westerbeke's site covers M35A but not M35B. I'm left with trying to piece things together from a hodgepodge of conflicting manuals.
THANK YOU Thank You thank you for recognizing that Wb and CTY sweats the details.
NOT. Is there any way you can scan what shows the "other" location and "sender"?
On the schematic, it's implied but not stated that the ignition switch is the preheat, except if you read the manual. Welcome to the world of crazy catalina and whacky westerbeke. Wb doesn't sweat details about having the most up-to-date/accurate info in its manuals (some manuals still reference a "radiator" (left over from a kubota tractor manual verbiage.)) There's many many errors that are never corrected. And Wb doesn't customize its Op Mans (especially things like start procedure) for what it's going into.
The most Wb does, is throw another schematic page in (yippee) and Catalina didn't make changes or issue errata to the manuals to reflect its installs. One would think someone would have said, "Yes, we'll buy your engine. IF you provide a manual that reflects the wiring changes you make and remove reference to the panels we don't use." Not unreasonable. It shows that there's no one on either end of that transaction who cared. Hell they don't even provide a schematic of the panel they do install.
The best thing you can do it use that manual to start a bonfire. It would be more useful.
The manuals for the "old" engines (-25, -35, -40) ARE NOT the manuals for the B series (-25XPB, -35B, -40B) like yours. There is NO WAY that a manual should be listed to cover both, say, an XPB and a 35 or 35A and a 35B. There was no XPB (except a repower) that was EVER installed in a CTY and wired anything like the old engines. The newest manual for the B series 35, 40, 50 is probably the best there is, but use caution -- there's still errors in it (and the parts manual as well.)
I don't know what Wb is recently doing with manuals -- it shows an April 2016 rev. 0, parts manual for the M-25XPA, which hasn't been out of production since 1996 !!! So from '94 to '96 they never issued a manual for engines sold, but decided to this year? It's a farce relying on what you read -- owners have to verify for themselves what's what with their engines. Shame on Wb. Oh yeaah, and the engine that's on the cover of the M-25XPA manual, isn't even one, it's an M-40 or M-50. Wb pulled diagrams from other engines and shows pumps, engine mounts, and other stuff that weren't on the XPA. All I can figure, is that Wb is trying to make everything generic so that it doesn't need to customize manuals to an engine.
Quote from: Breakin Away on November 15, 2016, 07:06:26 PM
That seems to be an even worse wiring scheme than Catalina has, and bound to lead to problems if people have a weak starter battery.
Understand that was not CTY's or Kb's wiring decision, that was Wb's decision. The way Wb designed the "marineizing", it can't be started w/o tearing out the preheat, oil switch, and lift pump circuits. It can be done, but it would have been a major change that CTY would have had to (1) understand what's going on and its ramifications and (2) cared to improve the power plant.
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 15, 2016, 11:13:33 PM
...
Get the Autozone switch cover gizmo I posted and save yourself a future headache. Also make sure there's no movement transferred from the harness...
Ken, I've searched the message board for every subset and permutation of the words "Autozone oil switch cover" that you've authored, and I only find reference to a 3rd party oil switch - nothing on a cover.
I also searched the tech wiki, same problem.
Sorry, but I need you to spoon-feed me a link to your post that describes this cover.
My temp and oil alarm stopped working. Bought a cole hersee duel alarm 4112 from Defender,but no wiring diagram.No help from CH or defender.Request from tech desk will not call back.This from Ch or defender.If any one installed this product would you please post wiring
Al Landry
c34 hull13
Lucky
Al,
Sure I love tech supporting other peoples sales! LOL
First, on which engine (put that in your profile?
Original install, or repower, or possibly any PO mod to the engine/panel electrical?
-kk
Quote from: lucky on November 16, 2016, 12:11:21 PM
My temp and oil alarm stopped working. Bought a cole hersee duel alarm 4112 from Defender,but no wiring diagram.No help from CH or defender.Request from tech desk will not call back.This from Ch or defender.If any one installed this product would you please post wiring
Al Landry
c34 hull13
Lucky
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 16, 2016, 12:18:36 PM
...Sure I love tech supporting other peoples sales! LOL
Ken, please pardon this naive question, but I am still pretty new here. What is it that you actually sell? I think it is important to have full disclosure on this (perhaps in your signature or profile) for a variety of reasons. It's not just about conflicts of interest; in fact, it will help all of us to know we could/should be purchasing certain items or services from you in recognition of the valuable support that you provide here. It would also be helpful for you to let us know what region of the world you are in, especially if you are selling services. Maybe you feel like everyone knows these things already, but there are always newcomers coming in who might not know.
I don't think it's a proper place for that -- I will sometimes PM someone if I think I can help them out or usually word of mouth.
Maybe there could be a "supplier's corner" someplace -- something the assn would have to discuss.
Once an owner "knows me" they know to email me first. :-)
Thanks
Ken
engine is orginal universal engine has oil sender.May have been aftermarker.I think orginaly it only had oil and.. water light no buzzer. only 2 terminals on ch note says12v dc non ground
Al Landry
1986 c34 hull#13
Lucky
thank you very very much
WHICH Universal engine? M-25, M-25XP? M-25XPA, M-25XPAC, M25-XPB, M-35? M35A, M-35B?
Help me here.
Oil
sender? You mean you have a pressure gauge on the panel?
Or do you mean an
oil switch? One or two terminal?
Does your thermostat cap have both a
temp sender (for the gauge) AND a
temp switch - ie. two wires and two gizmos on the thermostat cap??
Yep, I'm very familiar with the CH alarm -- good product I sometimes recommend depending on the situation.
Quote from: lucky on November 16, 2016, 12:49:49 PM
engine is orginal universal engine has oil sender.May have been aftermarker.I think orginaly it only had oil and.. water light no buzzer. only 2 terminals on ch note says12v dc non ground
Al Landry
1986 c34 hull#13
Lucky
thank you very very much
Quote
...
Get the Autozone switch cover gizmo I posted and save yourself a future headache. Also make sure there's no movement transferred from the harness...
Ken, I've searched the message board for every subset and permutation of the words "Autozone oil switch cover" that you've authored, and I only find reference to a 3rd party oil switch - nothing on a cover.
I also searched the tech wiki, same problem.
Sorry, but I need you to spoon-feed me a link to your post that describes this cover.
Achy Breaky, sure see spoon below:
Prior post:
Or, the switch terminals might be loose or broken off -- see this and prior posts here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9115.msg66799.html#msg66799 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9115.msg66799.html#msg66799)Suggest you install the plug/cover I show on that thread, with dielectric grease on the terms to protect them. Make SURE the harness is tied so there's NO movement in the wires to the switch. THIS may be an issue since there's occurrences of broken terminals. I dissected a B engine harness and found that Westerbeke used stiff UNTINNED SAE wire on its harness, not UL 1426 type III (most flexible) tinned marine wire. :shock: :shock:
But we'll give Wb another pass for once again non-ABYC-compliant crap :thumb: when they could just "do it right."It shows in a search:
http://c34.org/search_gcse/?q=kwkloeber%20switch%20autozone%20 (http://c34.org/search_gcse/?q=kwkloeber%20switch%20autozone%20)
Bottom of the page "
Oil Pressure Alarm"
The downside is,
as far as I know, the terminals and wires are not tinned. It's an imperfect world.
The upside is you won't break off a tab again. And if you use some dielectric (SuperLube teflon gel) there's shouldn't be any moisture getting to the terminals anyway. Not on the cap itself -- might tend to be slippery and vibrate the cap off the switch (unless you zip-tie around the body) -- just a little inside the female quick disconnect terminals, then it won't ooze out onto the cap. I'm talking a
smidgen here, not a
dallop.
PS it doesn't matter which wire goes to which terminal -- it's just an independant on-off switch, no magic.
Caveat - I don't have a 2-wire switch. But I recommended probably a dozen people get this cover after replacing their broken or failed or corroded up switch -- none did (out of sight out of mind.) So, I **think** (95.005%) it will fit the B series switch body/terminals.
-ken
As Stu has lamented many a time "use the Google search" on the main page.
Oftentimes, the forum search is not as "good" -- so try both if necessary.
Engine is m25.oil sender on blk one terminal. thermostat has one sending unit for gauge.
Al Landry
c34 hull#13
Lucky
Lake texoma,tx
Quote from: lucky on November 16, 2016, 03:25:37 PM
Engine is m25.oil sender on blk one terminal. thermostat has one sending unit for gauge.
Al Landry
c34 hull#13
Lucky
Lake texoma,tx
Al,
Ok on the M-25 panel, in a word, you're screwed. This is based on my M-25 wiring and my 1984 C30 M-25 panel -- I ass/u/me it's the same on the early C34 -- someone correct me if I'm off base on the early C34 panel alarm.
First, the CH "dual" means light and sound -- NOT dual alarm (such as oil and temp.)
The CH alarm needs a simple ON/OFF switch to trigger it. Think of it as simply an anchor light, turned on by the panel switch.
But instead of the panel switch on the hot wire to the light, the hot wire runs to the bulb and the switch is on the ground wire. The oil switch simply stays closed until there's oil pressure, and completes a circuit from the alarm/light to the engine ground. SO yes you CAN use the CH for oil pressure because it's just an on/off switch system.
But the TEMP alarm is a different animal -- not activated by a switch -- it's a circuit board that "reads" the resistance in the temp sender (temp gauge) circuit, and alarms when the resistance says the temp is too high. These boards go bad and there's no longer a replacement.
That's the screwed part.The workaround is to install a new separate panel switch (temperature switch) and another anchor light (alarm). A high-temp switch -- goes on the thermostat cap. A new cap is available ( $$$$) that has a port added for the switch, but many just drill and tap ( 1/8" NPT) the side of their old cap which works just as well (what do you have to loose to try it?)
I attached a pic of the cap w/ the temp sender (front) AND the temp switch (on the side, 1st pic below).
Some have also simply removed the petcock on the Tstat cap, and used that port (1/8" NPT) for the new temp switch (on the top, second picture below.)
You need a separate wire from the panel to the new temp switch, and you need another CH alarm
IF YOU WANT separate alarms for oil and temp. If you did the voltmeter upgrade, you should have an unused orange wire still running to the panel that you can repurpose.
If you don't care which sets off the CH alarm, then you just jumper the oil switch wire, to the new temp switch -- and when either switch (oil or temp) connects to the engine ground, your single CH alarm goes on. But IMHO -- who cares? You shut down anyway - and the temp gauge will tell you whether it's the temp that's high.
The key is, you can't do all that you want to do, until you install the new temp switch (standard on the M-25XP engines and all since then.)
The Westerbeke temp switch takes a special terminal (a Packard 56 terminal) but that's the easy part of it all. I've tried to source a different temp switch w/ some standard-type terminal, but haven't found one that's 1/8" NPT.
ken
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z214/eherlihy/Sailboats/Sunrise/Refit/DSCF1923.jpg)
(https://www.catalina36.org/sites/default/files/forum/IMG_6034.JPG)
Ken
Thanks for your help.Only need oil pressure hook up.Seems as I get older things are harder to understand.
Al Landry
c34 hull#13
Lucky
Quote from: lucky on November 17, 2016, 10:47:50 AM
Only need oil pressure hook up. Seems as I get older things are harder to understand.
Al Landry
Al,
OK then hook a power source onto one terminal on the CH (from the "I" terminal on the key switch, or power source that feeds your gauges -- something that is hot when the key is on, or whatever source currently feeds the alarm now.) On the other CH terminal -- put the (light gauge) blue wire that runs down to the oil switch. It doesn't matter which terminal either wire goes on -- it's a "dumb" light and buzzer is all.
Check it -- alarm should be ON w/ key on and engine not running (switch closed, completing the circuit to engine ground), OFF as soon as you start and get oil pressure (switch open, breaking the connection to engine ground.
I should have drawn another analogy before -- it's like a car door switch (before computers anyway) -- when you open the door, the switch connects to the body ground, and the dome light goes on. :-)
If anything else happens, then there's a different issue.
Don't worry -- I'm lucky I still remember this stuff LOL (CRS.).
Be cautious though -- you now have no temp alarm and unless you watch the temp gauge continuously you won't know if you've overheated and about to score a cylinder wall.
Let us know!
Ken
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 16, 2016, 01:16:03 PM
Quote
...
Get the Autozone switch cover gizmo I posted and save yourself a future headache. Also make sure there's no movement transferred from the harness...
Ken, I've searched the message board for every subset and permutation of the words "Autozone oil switch cover" that you've authored, and I only find reference to a 3rd party oil switch - nothing on a cover.
I also searched the tech wiki, same problem.
Sorry, but I need you to spoon-feed me a link to your post that describes this cover.
Achy Breaky, sure see spoon below:
It shows in a search:
http://c34.org/search_gcse/?q=kwkloeber%20switch%20autozone%20 (http://c34.org/search_gcse/?q=kwkloeber%20switch%20autozone%20)
Bottom of the page "Oil Pressure Alarm"
The downside is, as far as I know, the terminals and wires are not tinned. It's an imperfect world....
Caveat - I don't have a 2-wire switch. But I recommended probably a dozen people get this cover after replacing their broken or failed or corroded up switch -- none did (out of sight out of mind.) So, I **think** (95.005%) it will fit the B series switch body/terminals.
-ken
Thanks Klobster, I'll think about it. But after being implored, over and over again, never to use untinned wire, I'm not so sure. I might just be replacing one failure point for another. Plus, the Walmart-grade butt connectors that are shown in the picture do not give the impression of any kind of quality.
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 16, 2016, 01:28:42 PM
As Stu has lamented many a time "use the Google search" on the main page.
Oftentimes, the forum search is not as "good" -- so try both if necessary.
I'll lament that I had spent over 20 minutes searching message board and wiki, using multiple search methods including Google advanced search. The problem was that I included "cover" in my search terms, which is the word you used here (but not in your original message). I also had taken "cover" out of the search, but the resulting search was too broad and gave dozens of false hits. With garbage in, even the best search engine will yield garbage out.
I'll scan the Universal picture showing oil sender next time I have hardcopy manual and scanner in the same building with each other.
Yep,
I first searched using "autozone switch cover" using the main page search.
http://c34.org/search_gcse/?q=autozone%20switch%20cover%20
And it shows as #5 or #6 down on the return. The other search was me trying different combos to have it NOT show up.
But, I ended up with a failure. A failed fail, as it were.
Does it show using above link? -- If not, maybe a difference in engines or browsers or who knows? iNet stuff is above my pay grade (well, more like beyond my knowledge level.)
Onto the cover:
I see NO problem using non-tinned because you WILL CLIP the nylon Stak-On butts (right???) AND substitute adhesive-heat-sealed butts!
Plus as I said the dielectric doesn't let moisture past the seal. AND if you zip-tie on the boot (the smallest size), you're very good to go.
Yeah as I said, it's an imperfect world, but -- as Obama said (was it really that many years ago?") -- Don't let something that isn't perfect stand in the way of making something better. The boot is BETTER than what you had.
The butts shown are still tinned copper, just AHS. FTZ, which manufactures some of the best terminals on the market, also manufactures non-AHS (like on the boot,) So does Ancor -- Worst Marine sells them every day of the week (but I wouldn't use them.) !!
The boot is made by the same people that makes your switch -- just branded Duralast (Autozone) the butts are because it's used on auto engines not boats.
I can understand wanting tinned wire. SO, to be true to ones self, you best rip out YOUR ENTIRE engine harness and re-do it (I recently did did for a C30 customer) because (as described previously) on the 25XPB, 35B, 40B, and 50B -- it's SAE wire, not UL 1426 marine wire, and bare copper (not tinned), and stiff (not 1426/ABYC Type III fine-stranded.) Stiffness is ONE reason the tabs break off the switches !!
IPSO, another 4" of non-tinned wires going to make any difference???? No. Absolutely not. Not only "not," "hell not."
1/4" quick-disconnect terminals (like going to the starter solenoid) are the WORST KIND you can use on a marine engine, but Wb does. I use them ONLY when necessary and ONLY the sealed weather-tight versions. I also remove alternator field excite connections (51-amp Motorola/prestolite) that use the Packard 56 slide on terminals (look like fancy quick disconnects but they are NON TINNED) and substitute the sealed quick-connects.
So, which is better? "YBYC" I know what I'd do if it were my own engine.
Post pics of the broken sw and new install! (with boot LOL)
Cheers,
Klobster seems clunky -- KenSKI (or radio call sign "K-Man" while volunteering)
1984 C30 M25
I just received the new oil switch. Does the red stuff on the threads function as both a sealant and thread lock, or is additional sealant needed?
Also, Westerbeke's Service Bulletin 125 warns to use a special socket to remove/replace the switch. Does anyone know of a good generic replacement that won't damage the switch? Looks like it's just a 1" hex socket, or maybe also a 12-point star.
[EDIT: To answer my last question, at the store I found an OP socket and a 1-1/16" long hex socket. Both fit identically well on the switch, with no risk of rounding or getting stuck. The OP socket has the benefit of fitting both 1" and 1-1/16" switches since it has a 1" hex socket buried deeper beneath the 1-1/16" hex socket. A 12-point socket is definitely asking for trouble. Long hex socket was $8 and OP socket was $12, so I'll decide which to get tomorrow morning on the way to the boat.]
Another side question that might help others:
In looking over the Wells website for their oil pressure switches (http://www.wellsve.com/showall_ds_oil.php), it appears that their PS114 is an exact match for the physical dimensions, fail-to-open circuit, and tab design. Not sure about how its pressure range matches with Westerbeke's. Does anyone know if this $8-10 part a direct replacement for the $32 "marinized" Westerbeke version? I've already bought my Westerbeke replacement, so this is just an academic question at this point.
Online pictures show no stamping on the nut. Mine Westerbeke version is stamped 16200 and 63. Does anyone know what these represent?
breakin -
I have "gone round" before trying to source the identical sw of Wb's (well actually a better one, not bare copper.) Got with Wells techs and BWD techs but here's the rub:
they cannot search products based on my spec -- if and it's a BIG if, I give them a p/n they MIGHT be able to look up the specs on it. about 60% of the time, 40% a fail.
The auto parts sites are useless -- most the time they don't even tell you the thread, etc.
I was on the phone w/ Wells and had a catalog open and wanted to source a 10 psi sw, and the tech said he cant do it -- I thought they MUST have a better catalog than I had -- which listed specs for about 50% of the products. They use the same one I had. So if you call wells or BWD and can get a tech, they might be able to tell you the spec. The Wells sw you had, is a N/O, close at 2 - 7 psi. A little low, I think. I want to see a 10 - 12 psi switch (so at least maybe you get some lead time on low pressure.) Also I think the BWD switches may be better -- like one like S4337 -- which is tinned or chrome terminals.
http://ecatalog.smpcorp.com/bwd/#/vehicles/parts/num/S4337?type=s
BUT, I don't have the spec on that sw. note BWD has a matching boot also for that
http://ecatalog.smpcorp.com/bwd/#/vehicles/parts/num/PT5590?type=r
Tell the tech what car it goes on, and he can find it in a second -- but not by specification. dumb !!
And the fact that the parts sites don't list the spec is also dumb ! BUt you know how it is today at a parts store -- only what they can tap out on the keyboard.
If you want to just go trial/error,
http://www.wellsve.com/showall_ds_oil.php
http://ecatalog.smpcorp.com/bwd/#/searchparts -- in the bottom box pulldown, chose"Switch - " oil pressure light "
The thread seal on the switch is the only thing you need -- NO threadlock, you WANT it to come off later! You don't want to crank that on very tight -- I put mine on by "hand wrench" as tight as you can by hand (a strong hand) is usually tight enough!
Ken
Another day at the boat, another fail. I still didn't get to change the oil or winterize the raw water system.
The hold-up was my inability to remove the faulty oil switch. As you can see in the attached picture, it is butted up so close to an adjacent plug that I could not get a socket on it. The pic was taken at the very end of the day, since multiple attempts to get the camera down there for a picture either missed the target, were out of focus, or poorly lighted. Only at the very end did I make a last desperation attempt that worked. From feeling around before I had the pic, I had thought the plug might be a coolant drain, but after inspecting the picture more closely it looks like it's a placeholder for a possible later addition (oil pressure sender?).
I tried everything to get the plug off. Like I said, the OP socket was too thick to get around the nut. I tried adjustable and crescent wrenches, but they were all too bulky and handles too long to give me any space to pull them (due to collisions with various things down there). I also reluctantly tried vice grips, using the new switch as a guide to carefully adjust their tightness to as not to damage the switch that's in place. They were still too bulky. It's a shame the socket won't fit in the gap, because it's the perfect length to put the ratchet handle right in an opening to turn. I'm debating grinding off one side of the socket to hopefully get it over the switch with enough grab to start to turn it to a point where I can spin it the rest of the way off.
Now that I'm home and can see the picture more clearly, I do see a couple other possibilities. I suppose I could take the mounting plate off and try to move the whole assembly to where I can reach it, but I really don't see how I could get down there with two wrenches and two hands to counter-rotate the fittings for removal. It's just too constrained. I'm also unsure what the red rubber cap covers, and whether that could be rotated out of the way or is a tab connection that might break if I try to rotate it.
I guess another far-out possibility is to remove the plug, confirm its thread size, and if the same as the switch just put the switch there, leaving the old one in place.
If any of you have experience with this area of the M35B motor, please let me know your suggestions. Meanwhile, I'm looking over photos and the parts manual with a fine tooth comb looking for ideas. If someone else has actually addressed this problem by replacing an M35B oil switch, please post a suggestion.
Have you tried a crows foot on a short extension?
Sorry to sound naive, but I have never used a crows foot tool, and though I'd heard the term did not even know what one is. It sounds like it could work in this case, though the 1-1/16" crescent may be a little bulky. But hopefully, it could turn it just enough to get it loosened up. I think that will be the next thing that I try, unless someone comes up with something else.
Attached a picture of a crows foot. Much different than a crescent wrench.
breakin
the bracket that holds the sw is a Wb add-on. It consists of a machined pipe tee that is part of the bracket, with the dead plug (for a pressure sender used on Wb panels) coming off the center of the tee, and the sw coming off the bottom of the tee.
1) you can use a vice grip or anything you can get on it to remove the sw -- you won't hurt anything -- the metal case is part of the whole switch so you can't hurt it -- you will only hurt the seal to the plastic switch body, which doesn't make any difference.
2) both the dead plug and the sw are threaded into elbows, which are threaded into the T bracket. They really should be installed so the two elbows are kind of perpendicular to each other. You should be able to rotate the top elbow (w/ the plug in it) CCW so it's 90 to the switch, which should allow you to get the socket on the sw. In conjunction you may be able to rotate the bottom elbow (w/ the sw) a little so it clears the plug a little better. You might also grind down the socket so its a thin wall to help get it between the sw body and other elbow/plug. It might give you enough space if you just remove the small plug itself -- not positive, I haven't tried that.
3) when reinstalling, you would have more clearance if you change the plug to the bottom elbow, and the switch to the top elbow. They are both 1/8 NPT. OR find a switch with a longer body like this
(https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/mediumlarge/mrg-7872_ml.jpg)
4) the red is a cable boot on the cable going to the "B" terminal of the starter. You pop it off the terminal post/nut. But you can't (or shouldn't) rotate the connection/cable lug until the boot is pulled back and the nut/lockwasher loosened, etc. Then the problem of getting it tightened back up.
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlFXRioRgObkcIN1V2s9mmefRKBcIQk9M7DQV2grDcMVDNzN0F)
-ken
Ken
Thanks again for the help,I now have oil pressure alarm
Al Landry
c-34 hull#13
Lucky
Quote from: Jon W on November 19, 2016, 08:49:02 PM
Attached a picture of a crows foot. Much different than a crescent wrench.
Yes, you have pictured a crescent crows foot. In checking this out I discovered that there are also box crows foot, and ratcheted box crows foot tools. I realize that technically they are not crowfoot wrenches - a true crowfoot has a
crescent at its end.
(http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/images/ProductImages/7122989-11.jpg)
(http://public.snapon.com/R_RRD/Objects_lg/images/BFCR708.jpg)
My reference to the crescent is to point out that that part of the tool is bulky, which might make it difficult to get over the switch with the nearby obstacles. But I have ordered one online to try it (can't find 1-1/16" in stores), and may also pivot some thing around as suggested by Ken. However, my attempts at that are limited by my ability to get a good grip on anything down there in such a remote place.
What I've shown is an open end crows foot because you said there isn't room for a socket. There are box end as you've shown. If a socket won't fit, I didn't think a box end crows foot or box end wrench would fit.
I apologize if I'm stating the obvious, but for clarity there are open end wrenches, box end wrenches, and combination wrenches (one end is open and the other end is boxed). Crescent is a brand normally aligned to the generic name of adjustable wrench.
Break : I used a socket to change out a couple of oil pressure switches on my old M25XP. So it must have been a socket I had in my tool box.
I also change out the oil pressure switch on my new M25XPB engine which is similar to you M35BC engine with the same ? socket.
However, I reinstalled a single pole oil pressure switch (same OD), wired the lift pump to operate continuously when the key switch is ON, and wired the glow plugs to turn ON when the key is in the spring loaded position.
It's easy to do and makes trouble shooting much easier.
The safety feature of No oil pressure and shutting off the lift pump cutting OFF fuel and having the engine quit DOESN'T work on the C34. The higher fuel tank in a C34 will gravity feed the fuel so the engine will keep on running when there us NO oil pressure and/or lift pump.
So might as well change the wiring and make things simpler!!! All this is written up in the Mainsheet Tech Notes.
A few thoughts
Welcome, Al. So you have no temp alarm now -- just the gauge?
I have seen a hi-temp alarm switch that bolts on the exhaust manifold stud -- maybe that would be an easy alternative, and could be hooked to just a buzzer behind the panel, and not a light.
-Ken
Quote from: lucky on November 20, 2016, 05:28:53 AM
Ken
Thanks again for the help,I now have oil pressure alarm
Al Landry
c-34 hull#13
Lucky
I finally got the old oil pressure switch off! A 1-1/16" crowsfoot tool was able to get in at the correct angle to grab the flat spots. I threaded on the new switch, but ran out of time before I was able to connect it. I'm not going to use the AutoZone pigtail because there are two large gauge wires crimped onto one of the connectors, and I'm not comfortable butting two larger gauge wires down onto a much smaller gauge single wire on the pigtail. Also, when I tested the connector on the new switch, it went on so tight I nearly destroyed the switch getting it off. And that's with it right in front of me - someday I may need to take it off and it's going to be in a very inaccessible part of the motor, so not gonna go there. I'm going to fix what's broke, and leave what's working.
I borrowed a radiator pressure tester to track down a coolant leak this weekend. After fixing that (hopefully just a loose hose clamp), I'll heat up the oil, change it and the filter, put the antifreeze in, and then I'm done with the motor for the winter. I'll finish pulling off all the canvas and put the cover on.
Which swtich tab was broken off -- with the single crimp or the double crimped wire?
kk
Quote from: Breakin Away on November 23, 2016, 06:50:44 PM
I finally got the old oil pressure switch off! A 1-1/16" crowsfoot tool was able to get in at the correct angle to grab the flat spots. I threaded on the new switch, but ran out of time before I was able to connect it. I'm not going to use the AutoZone pigtail because there are two large gauge wires crimped onto one of the connectors, and I'm not comfortable butting two larger gauge wires down onto a much smaller gauge single wire on the pigtail. Also, when I tested the connector on the new switch, it went on so tight I nearly destroyed the switch getting it off. And that's with it right in front of me - someday I may need to take it off and it's going to be in a very inaccessible part of the motor, so not gonna go there. I'm going to fix what's broke, and leave what's working.
I borrowed a radiator pressure tester to track down a coolant leak this weekend. After fixing that (hopefully just a loose hose clamp), I'll heat up the oil, change it and the filter, put the antifreeze in, and then I'm done with the motor for the winter. I'll finish pulling off all the canvas and put the cover on.
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 24, 2016, 10:09:16 PM
Which swtich tab was broken off -- with the single crimp or the double crimped wire?
kk
Actually I do not remember, since it has been so long since I pulled the other one off to shunt them together for testing. They're still shunted together until I go down to finish the job tomorrow.
My guess (if I had to) is the double-crimped is what broke off. That's what I've seen on others.
Understand from what I explained previously, that Wb uses SAE, not marine wire, and stiff wire, not Type III flexible, thin-strand wire. Using the wrong wire is WHY the tabs break, and double crimping TWO bad wires onto one tab exponentially raises the chance that the tab will break. You've eliminated the symptom but not the cause --- it will break off again. Just a matter of time.
The only current going thru that switch is the lift pump -- I measured mine years ago, and it was under 1 amp -- don't remember exactly, but let's say 1 amp. 16 awg is even overkill for that amperage, and Wb runs 10 awg plus 14 awg into one terminal -- not only isn't that a good idea, it's just another failure point and isn't necessary. The double feed to the switch branches off the switch and is the feed to excite the alt field to get it kicked in and charging. That's low current also -- a 14 gauge would be overkill.
The proper way to do it is to NOT crimp two wires into that terminal PLUS, both wires to the switch should be light gauge, AND fine stranded (Type III) so as to NOT transfer ANY harness movement to the switch tabs (they flex and break off) (which is alternately what the boot does.) I understand concern about the boot being tight (I am ordering one and a sw to experiment) but putting it all back as it was, is just ignoring the underlying problem. I'm not sure if that alt has an "excite" terminal post -- if it does, the proper way would be to run the feed to the alt post first, then to the switch (using two ring terminals on the alt post.) Using marine Type IIi not SAE, wire of course.
Alternately -- on the crappy Wb wires, butt crimp short (6"?) 16 awg type III wire to the switch terminals. If you leave the double crimp at that location, use a step down butt, Wb's two wires in one side, and a 16 awg to the switch out the other side.
-kk
OK, it has been a very productive couple of days. Three problems solved: coolant leak, oil pressure switch, and tachometer.
First, I borrowed a radiator cap/radiator pressure tester from AutoZone. It does not have nearly as many attachments as other stores', but the one they had fit perfectly. (There are reviews on the AutoZone website claiming that this device only tests radiator caps, but those reviews are wrong.) First I used the double-ended adapter to test the cap, then I hooked it up the the motor and pressured up to 14 psi. In what is a clear violation of Murphy's law, the coolant leaked out the hose fitting right at the coolant cap, so it was easily tightened and held pressure all night. I had been misled on the location of this leak because of the long path the leaked coolant took back to the outside of the heat exchanger, then dropping off the HX onto the floor, and eventually forward into the bilge. I thought it was from the hot water tank or from the HX, but it turned out to be from the easiest place to fix.
With that fixed, I wired up the new oil pressure switch with the existing wires. Those wires are very stiff and especially resistant to twisting into the needed orientation to go onto the tabs (especially with SuperLube on my hands!). But eliminating the double-crimp by rewiring to the alternator looks like it will require either removing a bunch of hoses or the alternator itself. That's too much to take on with a short timeline to winter. It's on the list for spring, but I needed to focus on winter preparations, so the existing wires went back on as-is.
Once I had my cooling bucket all set up through the emergency hatch (see pic below), the motor fired up right away and the pressure alarm stopped immediately. Switch fixed! Motor ran for 20 minutes to heat up the oil. At this point I noticed that my on again/off again tachometer problem was on again. Tach initially revved up when initially starting, but immediately went to zero. Since this is an intermittent problem, I stopped and started the motor a few times to see if it persisted. Same thing every time - no tach after initial startup.
Last weekend I had tried to pump out the oil twice, with a drill pump kit and then a hand pump, and neither one would draw the oil at anything close to an acceptable rate. So I sprung for the really nice Jabsco Quick Change pump with the bronze impeller pump (not the cheaper and more problematic diaphragm pump). While expensive, it does the job great and minimizes your time in cramped quarters handling hot oil. Just pump it out into the permanently mounted pail, then reverse the pump direction to pump it into a disposal bottle. So the oil, filter, and ATF were both changed easily.
I was going to defer fixing the tachometer until spring, but decided to see if there might be a quick fix. The tach lead on the back of the alternator was right at the top - easily accessible, with no rubber boot on it. It also had original paint on the nut and threads, which is often not a good sign. So I took off the nut (along with its paint), cleaned up the loop terminal and everything else, and hooked it up again. While doing this, I noticed some coolant residue from the prior coolant leak, and it occurred to me that this residual liquid may have shorted the tach lead to ground. This could also explain the intermittent nature of the tach problem, since tach would seem to work fine after several days of drying, but could short out with fresh coolant splashing onto the mount. Just a hypothesis - I may never know for sure unless something happens again.
So with this fix done, I fired up the motor to prepare for winterization. Tach worked perfectly. Once again, I shut down and restarted a couple of times, and tach worked each time. So with three problems fixed in one weekend, I decided it's time to winterize. I drained residual water from the muffler and the raw water strainer, the filled the strainer with antifreeze and started up. While running I continued to pour 3 gallons of antifreeze through the system via the strainer, than noted that the exhaust was clearly expelling purple juice. I shut down with a brief surge of throttle (which a mechanic friend told me to do because the excess fuel fogs the cylinders), taped shut the air intake and exhaust, and called it a season. I can't wait to blow out the antifreeze in spring!
Now to strip the rest of the canvas and put on the cover (plus raking and mowing around the house). It never ends...
Once again I salute all you cold region sailors!
Nice isn't it when something like a leak is
BOTH QUICKLY found and EASILY fixed! :clap :clap
Cool that the tach issue also seems to be resolved - :thumb: :thumb: - that's why I really wanted to separate the two steps -- if it was due to the excite wire, you might never have found the real cause.:idea: :idea:
Note on the alt / oil sw / wires / terminals:
A couple different alts were used -- with different excite connections. The XPB harness I replaced did have the threaded post alternator, but some have a plug on the alt (with a double-crimp butt connector), and some have a single wire to the regulator (also with a double crimp butt.)
If you have the threaded post style -- it ALSO will have a double crimp ring terminal, similar to at the oil switch (it's just a bad dream what Wb did) so you'll run into the same issue. So in your case, the way you describe, you'll have to cut/crimp on ring terminals for the two wires to the alt excite post, and run a new wire back to the switch.
If you have the plug or single-wire on the regulator type alt excite, then you'd have to cut one of the two wires going to the excite, and use a step-down butt connector to run your new wire back to the oil switch.
For any of them, you'd as well need to cut and butt crimp together the double-crimped terminal wires at the oil switch -- but with access to the area very limited on your boat, you may not be able to do that or have enough "excess" harness length to do all of those. Wb was NOT generous!!
(confusing? -- I can mark up a schematic what to do if you need me to.)
Here's a simpler way:
Make up two male quick disconnect by female quick disconnect jumpers using 16 awg Type III wire (see length below.)
Connect the jumpers to the harness oil sw terminals, a little bit of dielectric wouldn't hurt, and adhesive heat shrink (mil spec) over your connections. Tie the existing oil switch wires down where you can, to prevent movement (maybe to the oil switch/hose bracket?)
Voila', you have flexible wires to the switch, w/o messing with the alternator.
The length of your jumpers would be set by where/how your harness wires can be tied down.
Of course this does a waltz around the issue that additionally, wiring to the alternator (as well as anywhere that there could be harness movement / vibration) should also be Type III marine, not SAE wire (this was the whole reason behind the owner wanting the new harness fabricated!!)
-kk
Quote from: Breakin Away on November 26, 2016, 04:08:11 PM
OK, it has been a very productive couple of days. Three problems solved: coolant leak, oil pressure switch, and tachometer.
the coolant leaked out the hose fitting right at the coolant cap, so it was easily tightened and held pressure all night. I had been misled on the location of this leak because of the long path the leaked coolant took back to the outside of the heat exchanger, then dropping off the HX onto the floor, and eventually forward into the bilge. I thought it was from the hot water tank or from the HX, but it turned out to be from the easiest place to fix.
With that fixed, I wired up the new oil pressure switch with the existing wires. Those wires are very stiff and especially resistant to twisting into the needed orientation to go onto the tabs (especially with SuperLube on my hands!). But eliminating the double-crimp by rewiring to the alternator looks like it will require either removing a bunch of hoses or the alternator itself. That's too much to take on with a short timeline to winter. It's on the list for spring, but I needed to focus on winter preparations, so the existing wires went back on as-is.
The tach lead on the back of the alternator was right at the top - easily accessible, with no rubber boot on it. It also had original paint on the nut and threads, which is often not a good sign. So I took off the nut (along with its paint), cleaned up the loop terminal and everything else, and hooked it up again. While doing this, I noticed some coolant residue from the prior coolant leak, and it occurred to me that this residual liquid may have shorted the tach lead to ground. This could also explain the intermittent nature of the tach problem, since tach would seem to work fine after several days of drying, but could short out with fresh coolant splashing onto the mount. Just a hypothesis - I may never know for sure unless something happens again.
So with this fix done, I fired up the motor to prepare for winterization. Tach worked perfectly. Once again, I shut down and restarted a couple of times, and tach worked each time.