My boat came with a Dutchman system. So far it has been a love/hate relationship. It actually works great once I have it up, and the sail raises easily and drops down into nice flakes. But since my sail cover does not have any zippered slits, I need to take the Dutchman down every time I cover the sail. Regardless of how hard I try to stow it as a neat coil, it invariably ends up as a twisted, tangled mess that is a pain to re-raise after uncovering the sail. So, I am looking for ideas.
- Do I have my sail cover modified with a couple zippered slits so I could leave it up? If so, are there any tricks to avoid rain from running down the monofilaments and onto the sail under the cover?
- Do I just remove the whole thing and manually flake my sail?
- Do I look into a Stack pack or Mack pack?
- Other ideas?
Modifying my cover seems the most straightforward solution, but the cover is old and may not be worth modifying. And if I need to buy a new cover anyway, the stack pack options might be only a little more expensive.
I like the Dutchman system, but if it had to be disassembled every time we sailed,it would be history. Your cheapest option is obviously going to be getting slits in your sail cover with zippers or other fasteners. If the mainsail cover is so bad you don't want to alter it then you will need one no matter what. If you like the Dutchman, and only having to set it up once a year unless the monofilament breaks, then keep it and have a new cover made with zippers.
If someone in your family, or a friend, has sewing skills it is an easy fix. You are just sewing canvas and a zipper!
Are you able to slacken the Dutchman lines (not sure if you have the halyard or the topping lift system) such that the cover can go over the Dutchman lines with the lines coming out the bottom?
If not, we modified our cover by putting in zippers on one side and then canvas flaps around the top that are tied off with small lines. That prevents rain from dripping down the Dutchman lines onto the sail.
Quote from: Clay Greene on September 08, 2016, 09:38:22 AM
Are you able to slacken the Dutchman lines (not sure if you have the halyard or the topping lift system) such that the cover can go over the Dutchman lines with the lines coming out the bottom?
If not, we modified our cover by putting in zippers on one side and then canvas flaps around the top that are tied off with small lines. That prevents rain from dripping down the Dutchman lines onto the sail.
I have the version with a halyard-style topping lift. From the cockpit, the pennant runs up the mast, over a masthead sheave, and down to the aft end of the boom.
I first tried just slackening the lines to rest on top of the sail. But if I lead them forward to the boom, the black plastic mono clamps can whack against the mast, especially in a blow. If I lead them back to the aft end of the sail cover, it seemed like it could become a potential chafe problem against the end of the cover. So my answer has been to completely lower the system (without detaching from the pockets) and attach the topping lift pennant to the end of the boom, then apply tension to the topping lift to support the boom and avoid chafe. I coil up the Dutchman stuff and tie it on top of the flaked sail, under the cover. I admit that this may be over-complicating things, but at least everything is secure, protected from UV, and I avoid halyard slap.
I need to re-inspect my sail cover. It might be in better shape than I realize, and thus worth modifying. Cutting slits will probably be the most efffective low-cost solution. It seems like adding toggles would require adding fabric for the needed overlap, but zippers could be done without adding much fabric if I get black ones that are more UV resistant. Maybe this could be a DIY solution, but not sure if our sewing machine is heavy-duty enough. (I'm tying to avoid buying a Sailrite.)
Related question: What are the zippered "pockets" at the foot of the sail used for? It seems like they're pretty much useless once the sail is flaked, because they are buried so deep.
Those pockets are just to coil unneeded monofillament from the Dutchman. If our short lead snaps there is enough unused in the pocket to make another. If you ever need new mono go to a Ace Hardware or similar...not to West Marine. It is just heavy duty monofilament and costs a fraction in a hardware setting.
If you cannot do the work yourself I would think that most any canvas place could put in the two short zippers for under $100.
I just replace our monofilament and yes, those pockets are just to wrap the space end bits into them.
Our cover has two zippered slots on the port side. So we swing the boom to port on the traveler and put the cover on and then zip it up and close the bottom. Either get a new cover or have zippers installed at the right locations. Depends on the condition of your cover.
In our case we're going to need a new one soon. One expense at a time though.
I would add the zippers. We have a Dutchman with the zippers in the cover. It works great. We went out and determined best settings the marked the main halyard and topping lift halyard so there is no guess. Allows the two of us to drop the sail in nice folded flakes.
Brian
Zippers would be nice, but I'm cheap! We simply loosen the "topping lift (it's not really a topping lift, as we have a solid boom vane that supports the boom) run the forward Dutchman line toward the mast and the aft line to the end of the boom. We've been doing it this way for 18 years and never had a chaffing problem nor any clanging against the mast.
Any halfway decent sewing machine can be used to put on the zippers. I sewed lots of them with my 1980 vintage Kenmore into Sunbrella before I got really into the canvas work and went for a heavy duty machine. Just get some bigger needles, the correct thread and follow the sailrite methods for sewing zippers. The biggest issue will be the size of the cover and managing that in your machine. Awkward
Quote from: capndon on September 08, 2016, 04:00:55 PM
Zippers would be nice, but I'm cheap! We simply loosen the "topping lift (it's not really a topping lift, as we have a solid boom vane that supports the boom) run the forward Dutchman line toward the mast and the aft line to the end of the boom. We've been doing it this way for 18 years and never had a chaffing problem nor any clanging against the mast.
I am going to try this tomorrow and see how it works for us. That may be the final solution for our aging cover.
If that does not work, or the cover can regain significant life from some minor repairs and upgrades, I have found a marine seamstress who is highly recommended and reasonable.
I have done a very little bit of sewing, and my wife is pretty good, too. But it's too risky to cut these slits ourselves. Doing the job right, with proper chafe protection around the edges, fabric liner under the zipper, and flap to minimize moisture from rain running down the monofilament, is a detailed job for a beginner, so we will hire it out if we need to do it.
But something tells me that capndon's suggestion will work fine for us for the remaining life of the cover. Funny how I had tried running both lines forward, both lines aft, but never thought of one forward and one aft!
Just as an FYI. There is no science to the zipper inserts. They are just rolled edges all around. There is nothing to keep water from coming down the mono but it has never been a problem. It just rolls off.
I would like to pursue the stack pack question. I have the dutchman and like it but I cruise a lot and every afternoon and morning slacken or tighten the Dutchman monofilaments and put on or take off the sail cover, deal with the sail ties etc. I also need a new sail cover and have been thinking about the stack pack option. The pros look obvious: no hauling around of canvas cover, faster deployment of main etc. But what about the cons? Do the sides of the bag bang around when the wind gets up? Does the bag interfere with the loosening of the loose footed main when going downwind. Can the lazy jacks be left up or do they interfere with the sail when sailing? If you don't put on the nose piece all the time are you degrading the luff of main significantly? Are some manufacturers' models better than others? For instance I notice that Doyle seems to use very heavy lines for the lazy jacks instead of something thin and light like Spectra.
I would be interested in hearing views from those who have a stack pack of some kind.
When we bought our new main, we also had it equipped with a dutchman. I had the sailcover modified with 2 zippers. I marked the location, brought it to the canvas guy and he had it done in a couple days/
I adjust the monofilament lines very infrequently, maybe 1-2 a season.
I use only one sail tie, just aft of the forward mono line. No need for any more.
When it comes time to remove the sail for winter storage, I store the sail flaked in the main cabin (when it is not going in for cleaning). With a loose footed main, it is simple to disconnect it from the boom, put a few sail ties around it, coil up the topping lift and mono lines and carry the whole thing down to the cabin, laying it across the galley counter to the bukhead. Reverse the procedure in the spring.
Quote from: capndon on September 08, 2016, 04:00:55 PM
Zippers would be nice, but I'm cheap! We simply loosen the "topping lift (it's not really a topping lift, as we have a solid boom vane that supports the boom) run the forward Dutchman line toward the mast and the aft line to the end of the boom. We've been doing it this way for 18 years and never had a chaffing problem nor any clanging against the mast.
I've done this for three weekends now, and it seems to work great. I can put sufficient tension on the topping lift to keep everything from slapping the mast. Once I remove the sail cover, I just tension up the topping lift prior to raising the sail, without having to untangle everything. It's much better, and eliminates the need for me to modify my sail cover with zippers.
I'll probably stick with the current Dutchman for the remaining life of the sail. If I need to replace the mainsail at some point, I will consider a stack pack as part of the package for the new sail.
I've had the Dutchman since new (OEM from Catalina). Wouldn't have it any other way. Have slits in sail cover so don't need to slacken lines. When I raise the sail I loosen the topping lift slightly so the monofilaments don't get in the way. When lowering the main I tighten the topping lift tight so the sail flakes and the monofilaments keep the sail over the boom. It is easy to use and never had any issues. I would definitely get one on a new main when the day comes.
I am becoming much happier with the system, and would consider Dutchman cringles in a new sail. Only reason I mention a stack pack with a new sail is that is the natural time to consider all options. By that point I will have enough experience with Dutchman that I'll be 100% sure the I either want to get another one or get something else. But so far things are looking good with it.