Catalina 34

During the Riser replacement project, I was able to dig into the engine electrical connection, this may explain a few things!

This block was beneath a plastic 'umbrella' that was screwed to the underside of the engine compartment just above the hole in the port side bulkhead where the hoses pass from the Head to the Engine Bay.

My initial thoughts are:
.. Seriously!
.. Definitely signs of sparking / heating / corrosion

Anyone know if there is a standard color coding that seems to apply to this thing?

Paul

Did a bit of research on the web. Could not find a suitable replacement block.

Ideally it would be a covered block that took ring terminals and suitable for hot (engine bay) environments.

Ken?

Looks like it was installed as part of the engine harness electrical upgrade. There are wiring diagrams with color coding in the engine harness upgrade links.

Quote from: britinusa on July 17, 2016, 01:02:57 AM
Did a bit of research on the web. Could not find a suitable replacement block.

Ideally it would be a covered block that took ring terminals and suitable for hot (engine bay) environments.

Ken?

Email coming - don't get me started on here about Catalina and Universal and the engine harness.  Wisdom is it was ok to supply inferior products and do inferior work -- Catalina gets a pass.

k

Quote from: Jon W on July 17, 2016, 03:22:52 AM
Looks like it was installed as part of the engine harness electrical upgrade. There are wiring diagrams with color coding in the engine harness upgrade links.

No harness upgrade, but PO did install a eurostrip (and remove at at least the engine-end gummy bear plug) when switching from the ammeter to voltmeter.

Looking up the color codes in the Tech Wiki and listing them according to the Order in which they are connected to the terminal block.

Purple - Alternator Exciter
Yellow - Starter ?????? (And this is the one that shows heat damage)
Light Blue - Oil Pressure Switch
Yellow/Red - Starter (this goes to an inline fuse then to the starter)
Black - Ground
Tan/Brown - Temp Sender
Grey - Glow Plugs

Note: Determined by Inspection

Paul

Paul

Eurostrip is the worst possible option

Term strips are avail, but it depends on what your objective is (see email) - just fix what's there, or make it at least compliant, or improve. 
If you want to just fix what's there, butt crimp the ends - there's no need for a term strip.   If you want to improve, then there's options, increasing levels of improvement, etc.

Kk

Quote from: britinusa on July 17, 2016, 08:01:41 AM
Looking up the color codes in the Tech Wiki and listing them according to the Order in which they are connected to the terminal block.

Purple - Alternator Exciter
Yellow - Starter ?????? (And this is the one that shows heat damage)
Light Blue - Oil Pressure Switch
Yellow/Red - Starter (this goes to an inline fuse then to the starter)
Black - Ground
Tan/Brown - Temp Sender
Grey - Glow Plugs

Note: Determined by Inspection

Paul

Paul,

Good for you tracing them yourself.

Here's a link with the OEM wiring diagram:

Engine harness upgrade: A comprehensive overview by Gerry Douglas Important WARNING for M25 owners

http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Engine_Harness_Upgrade

Ken's position on the harness and connections is well documented in the Critical Upgrades topic.   Just hate to need to have him retype the obvious, over and over again!   :D

Ron Hill's point is also well taken:  butt 'em together, 'cuz if you ever (re)move your engine, you're gonna disconnect the wires at the engine anyway.  And Ron replaced his entire engine, so he should know.

Yellow/red - understand the difference between the starter and the starter solenoid.

Good luck.

As per your email.
I'm not going for a gold here, but silver is really good.

So I'm going to rework the wiring and service the starter.
..Get rid of the Euro Strip and replace it with a Terminal Block (Blue Sea).
..Remove the Alternator to get to the starter. Remove the Starter and service is as per "Slow or Difficult to Start Universal M-25XP Engine" in the Tech Wiki.
..Clean up/Recrimp/Replace any wires from the terminal strip to the engine as needed.

..Inspect the Control Panel to see if the PO did a quicky upgrade (ie. just install a voltmeter) and hope that I don't find another can of worms back there, and if I do, oh well, it'll just B.O.A.T.

It'll be a whole lot easier doing all of this with the Riser out and the Hx out.

I want to be sailing within by the end of the month!!!

Paul

Quote from: britinusa on July 17, 2016, 09:53:33 AM
As per your email.
I'm not going for a gold here, but silver is really good.

So I'm going to rework the wiring and service the starter.
..Get rid of the Euro Strip and replace it with a Terminal Block (Blue Sea).
..Remove the Alternator to get to the starter. Remove the Starter and service is as per "Slow or Difficult to Start Universal M-25XP Engine" in the Tech Wiki.
..Clean up/Recrimp/Replace any wires from the terminal strip to the engine as needed.

..Inspect the Control Panel to see if the PO did a quicky upgrade (ie. just install a voltmeter) and hope that I don't find another can of worms back there, and if I do, oh well, it'll just B.O.A.T.

It'll be a whole lot easier doing all of this with the Riser out and the Hx out.

I want to be sailing within by the end of the month!!!

Paul

Paul,

The burnt "yellow" (is either the OEM red or orange and) is your power supply to the panel.

Silver steps emailed to you.

Note that the upgrade Gerry suggests in the write up is NON ABYC compliant and continues a FIRE HAZARD inherent in the OEM harness (that was corrected with the M-25XPB engine/harness.)  YBYC, but there's more needed than just GErry's steps -- to make it right.

While you have the starter out, replace the solenoid with the post style - it's well worth the 50 boat bucks.  The quick connect style is nothing but future problems.

k

Thanks Stu, that is the wiki article I read this morning. Really good.

Another is http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Slow_or_Difficult_to_Start_Universal_M-25XP_Engine

Good point about the butt joints, simplifies a lot and will also eliminate some of the existing butt joints that are within 2" of each other on the same wire!

Paul

Paul,

One caution and two comments on the starter article:

Be aware that as installed wiring does not comply with ABYC for 2 reasons -- one of which is that the harness remains a fire hazard.
With the OEM 55-amp alt, the only reason to use 6 awg charge cable is if you don't have a crimper for an 8 awg lug.
Alt frame should additionally be grounded w/ an 8 awg cable (6 awg for the 72 amp alt.)

kk

Ken's right, of course.

The ONLY purpose of posting that link to Gerry's article was in response to Paul's request for the color coding.

I also sketched them out from when I replaced my alternator and added a new regulator, and the link is in the "Electrical Systems 101" topic, "Alt/Reg Wiring - all three"

Unless you're sure it's the starter, perhaps you don't have to pull it.  OTOH, "while you're in there..."

Gee, that phrase keeps comin' up, but once you're done in there, you truly will be in great shape. :clap

Paul : You have part of the Wiring harness upgrade.  If your 1987 C34 has a Volt meter you have the other most important part of the upgrade.  There was another third part of the upgrade and that was to run a short heavy wire (most of us used a #6/#4 gage) from the alternator output direct to the starter solenoid.

If you have those items you have the upgrade I wouldn't worry!! 

Any "burnt insolation" on the wiring was probably have been from the old trailer plugs that your previous owner eliminated.  There is another Euro Strip at the engine instrument panel.  The old trailer plugs did literally burn up!!

For Kens' sake, that old wiring with the trailer connectors was used by Universal and Catalina to facilitate the factory production line!!!
   
Paul, if you ever have to remove your engine you are going to disconnect all wiring at the engine and never go to any euro strip of wiring block - believe me!!

I put my Euro Strips in Rubber-Made Boxes , snapped the lid on it and all has worked just fine since 1991!!

So don't be alarmed!! 

A few thoughts

WYIT (While You're In There) is becoming a catch phrase to be used when starting any boat project.

Listing several issues: Starter has an initial reluctance, Tach will drop to zero on occasion when the engine is running, Multiple inline  butt connectors on the same wires between the panel and the engine, Smart Regulator is not connected, (the spare regulator is) they are both remote, at least one of the harness wires is undersized, corrosion on at least one of the wires in the terminal block.

So I'm going to bite the bullet and put in a new harness. Eliminate the known terminal block (and either 2nd TB or Gummy bear connector behind the panel), and as others have put it, I'll sleep better!

I'll go down to the boat early this week and sketch out the engine side of the existing harness and look into pulling the control panel out of the coaming.  At least at that point I'll know what I'm getting into.

Anyone have a source for the Starter Brushes? WYIT ... I'm going to pull the starter and service that too.

Paul

Ok, decision made.

I'm going to build and install a complete Control Panel to Engine harness.

I'll be adding a new solenoid (thanks Ken) and a -ve Bus Bar in the engine bay.

All new wiring including the control panel and new wires to all of the engine services.

Why? Because I found so many skinny wires, bad crimps, poor and multiple butt connectors and Wire nuts and ... the list goes on.
When I finish this, we'll have a top notch Engine Electrical Harness that will make future servicing easier and more reliable.

This is gonna be Uge! I can build really big harnesses and I'll get others to pay for it! We'll make our boat great again.


(sic)

it will be pretty cool!

just so that you know where we're starting from, here's a link to a google photo album of pics that I took of the existing harness (not sure that's the correct term for this bunch of wires)....
\https://goo.gl/photos/G55EJjY7yCmdVRD8A (https://goo.gl/photos/G55EJjY7yCmdVRD8A)

Paul

Looks like mine did when I started my harness upgrade, except my panel tray doesn't have the back on it like yours. Any wires fall out of their crimp when you removed the panel?

Jon, no wires fell out of their crimps- surprisingly!

At the boat this morning getting my eyes on all of the wires going to the engine devices.

I was going to install a -ve Bus Bar in the Engine bay and connect the Starter -ve, Alt -ve and Battery -ve to that, however this morning I found that the -ve from the Starter and the -ve from the Alternator both run independently back to the -ve Battery bus bar that is on the aft face of the battery bay bulkhead (ie. in galley adjacent to the hot water tank)

And they are both 1/0AWG cables.

However, there are 5 independent ground wires on the engine, not sure where they all go (they're all black and range from #10awg and smaller.

So I'm considering installing the -ve Bus Bar in the Engine bay, and connecting it to the Alt -ve and moving all of the ground connections from the engine (there's 5 of them) to the new bus bar and also connecting it to the engine case.

Regarding installing a jumper between the starter and the alternator.
Currently there is a 1/0awg cable from the alternator to appears to go to the Battery bay, but it goes under the cabin sole and I could not see if it went to the Battery selector switch (above the nav table) or to the Battery bay.
There is also a smaller, probably #4awg or #6awg cable from the stater to the Engine Master Power Switch which is also above the Nav table.
From there it goes to the Starter battery or to the house batteries if the 0ff/1/both/2 switch is on both.

IMHO I don't need to put a jumper cable (#1awg) from the Alternator +ve to the Starter +ve.

I have not laid my eyes on the Blower motor yet, can't see it from underneath the aft berth, I'm guessing it's down in the aft locker somewhere, anyone seen it  :?

Hopefully the new diagram will be complete this afternoon and I'll post it here.

Paul

Paul,

Potential negatives.

Harness - 10 awg
Fuel level sender
Fuel pump
Fuel tank?
Deck fuel fill?


Note that bonding wires (eg, fuel filler) should be green.

Panel Feature	Color	AWG	Connect To:
+ve Supply	Red	#8	Starter +ve Post
-ve Return	Black	#8	Engine Bay -ve Bus Bar
Starter Button	Yellow	#10	Starter Solenoid S Post
Glow Plug Switch	Gray	#10	Glow Plug #1 Terminal
Blower Switch	Brown	#14	Blower Motor
Oil Pressure Alarm	Lite Blue	#16	Oil Pressure Switch
High Temp Alarm	Tan	#16	High Temp Switch
Temp Gauge	Tan	#16	Engine Temp Sensor
Tachometer	Gray	#14	Alternator (???)
Fuel Gauge	Pink	#16	Fuel Tank Sensor
Ignition	Purple	#14	Fuel Pump

Engine Bay 8 terminal -ve (ground) Bus Bar
a) Harness to Control Panel -ve
b) Engine ground ( by flywheel )
c) -ve Return for Fuel Level Sender
d) -ve Return for Fuel Pump
e) Ground for Fuel Tank
f) Ground for Deck fuel fill
g) to Starter -ve

Some of these items can be #16 AWG, not sure which!

Update: Thanks Ken, I have updated my list with the sizes.


Paul

Guys : Don't take Pauls' color coding as Gospel. 

Over the years most of us have found that Bristol Marine did it one way and Seaward did it another way. 

When the Catalina factory changed from Bristol to Seaward as supplier (1989/90?) the factory would find some of the old Bristol harnesses and then in stall them - Frank throws NOTHING away.

A thought

FYI I got the color codes from Defender

https://www.defender.com/pdf/abyc-wire-color-chart.pdf (https://www.defender.com/pdf/abyc-wire-color-chart.pdf)

Paul

On my boat the blower motor is under the coaming on the port side near of the engine control panel. Without a back on my engine panel tray I could see it. Since your panel tray has a back, you made need to climb into the aft lazarette to see it.

The port and starboard ventilation hoses run from aft of the engine compartment to the exit vents on each side of the cockpit. The port side connects to the blower fan, the starboard side hose only connects to the vent exit. I'm not sure what benefit the starboard hose provides.

I had always thought that the port side was the 'outlet' and the stbd side was the 'inlet'

Pretty sure that on Eximius, the stbd hose from just sits in the space under the aft berth.

Paul

Update, using my endoscope, I was able to find the Alternator Model. It's a Balmar 91 75 - 75Amp 14v alternator.

I also measured the wire lengths.
Most harness wires need to be 18' long (that gives a bit of slack at each end and allows for the panel to be pulled from the housing.

The Blower +ve need only be 2' as I'm going to butt joint that to the existing motor wire.

The Fuel Pump +ve is 23' and the Fuel Sender is 26'

when I install them, I can trim off any excess, but rather that than butt joint a wire extension.

Paul

If you're adding a negative busbar in the engine compartment why not terminate the fuel gauge negative there? A much shorter run.

Quote from: Jon W on July 21, 2016, 10:41:48 AM
If you're adding a negative busbar in the engine compartment why not terminate the fuel gauge negative there? A much shorter run.

Paul is planning on that (below.)
You're referring to the level sender negative, correct?  Not the gauge negative (which is grounded at the panel)?

Engine Bay 8 terminal -ve (ground) Bus Bar
a) Harness to Control Panel -ve
b) Engine ground ( by flywheel ) (will be moved to starter bolt)
c) -ve Return for Fuel Level Sender
d) -ve Return for Fuel Pump
e) Ground for Fuel Tank
f) Ground for Deck fuel fill
g) to Starter -ve

Hard to tell the +ve from the -ve on my phone. Saw 23 and 26 feet and thought they were -ve.

Since then, further discussion with Ken, and so the +ve for the Fuel Pump is going to be a branch off of Alt Excite post which is supplied from the Ignition Switch.

And the -ve's for the fuel pump and the fuel sender / tank ground will both be going to the new -ve bus bar that will be mounted on the outside of the port engine stringer. (I should be able to access the bus bar from inside the head via the engine access door.)

Paul

Quote from: britinusa on July 21, 2016, 03:24:55 PM
Since then, further discussion with Ken, and so the +ve for the Fuel Pump is going to be a branch off of Alt Excite post which is supplied from the Ignition Switch.

And the -ve's for the fuel pump and the fuel sender / tank ground will both be going to the new -ve bus bar that will be mounted on the outside of the port engine stringer. (I should be able to access the bus bar from inside the head via the engine access door.)

Paul

That's one option for the pump. 
Or, if the harness "pases near" the pump, I'd probably take the pump feed right off the excite wire (rather than running it back from the alternator field excite post.)

Progress report.
Had a buddy help me on the boat today - just a 2nd pair of hands.

Disconnected & Removed the Alternator
Disconnected & Removed the Starter & Solenoid (Starter is in great shape, Fly wheel too!
Confirmed Starter +ve is definitely a spade fitting - glad I'm getting the new solenoid.

Disconnected the Panel from the terminal block and started to extract all wires except the Blower +ve.

Disconnected the Engine from the terminal block

Brought the Control Panel, Alternator and Starter/solenoid home for clean up.

Side project: I removed the Edson 'pod' that housed the defunct Wind Instrument & Water Speed Instrument (I installed the new Garmin (Airmar) hull transducer a week ago and it replaced the dead transducer that is in the Bow)

Ken has shipped the materials that I'll be using (almost everything).

as I said, it was a good day

Side pro

Thought you might appreciate this.

I was looking for replacement lamps for the control panel instruments and found these LED lamps online at Amazon

Link to Amazon (https://amzn.com/B00KT1BH1Q)

They arrived today and I had no problem installing them into the panel instruments, checked them out with a 12v DC power supply attached to the panel, work great on the Voltmeter, Temp, and Fuel guages, next thing it to try them out on the Tach.

Paul

Making progress with the new Engine Control Panel harness.

Inspired by Nick Caballero's article in the Mainsheet, I put together this wiring diagram.

Couple of notes: The old panel wiring had several terminals that had multiple terminations on a single post, I don't like that method.
So I'm putting a +ve Buss bar on the back of the panel so that no post will have more than 2 wires connected.

I'm also installing a panel lighting switch. (the new panel lights are all LED)

Here's the link to my diagram.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzhALZsJd3D4UUppeEpkVXhHQTA/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzhALZsJd3D4UUppeEpkVXhHQTA/view?usp=sharing)

Paul

Moving forwards, just a quick update.
Esprit Du Vent (Bob Schuldenfrei) has a couple of features on his Control Panel and Panel housing that I liked, so I have incorporated them in our Panel & Housing.

Here's the housing mod:

And a close up showing the Stop Handle Mounting Wedge that was not part of the original Panel housing.

I've put a more detailed explanation on my blog at http://www.sailingeximius.com (http://www.sailingeximius.com)

Paul

Paul

See attached

kk

That makes sense Ken.

somehow I think CY may have tried a number of solutions to the same issue.

Paul

Paul : If you look in the old Mainsheet tech notes you'll find an article where I replaced all of the engine instrument 194 lights with LED's . 
They are Red LEDs so as not to spoil your night vision.   

A thought

Paul : There are other Mainsheet articles showing a full Lexan cover to protect the engine instruments and switches.
The switches all have rubber boots for additional WX protection
I cut holes on the full pane for the key switch, starter and blower access. There is a slot for the engine stop handle.  I also made a Sunbrella cover to protect (UV) the panel while the boat is "parked" (attaches with snaps).

A lot of information in those old tech notes.  :thumb:

A few thoughts

I would but my login does not work for the tech notes.

Paul

BTW- the enclosure and stop handle position changes with the year of boat. My 1990 is on the left side of the panel (when facing the panel) in front of the tach.

Quote from: Noah on August 02, 2016, 04:02:24 PM
BTW- the enclosure and stop handle position changes with the year of boat. Mine 1990 is on the left side facing the panel in the middle over the tach.

yep and mine is through the flat panel itself!  :shock:

It may depend on the day of the week and the Catalina "technician" involved.  :lol:



kk

Ron, I purchased the Black & Red push button covers from CD a while ago with a switch in anticipation of needing a spare  :santa

I was able to get into the tech notes, my PC remembered the username and password for the index, but not the actual links.

all ok now.

Thanks Stu!

Paul

There's a lot to be said to doing business with Association members. I've been working with Ken (KK) on the needs for the Engine Harness Upgrade. Some of the items were delayed, but Ken jumped through a few hoops to expedite them.

Looks like I may get the propulsion system put back together next week! (and while I'm at it, replacing the Engine Mounts)

Stay tuned.

Paul

Didn't realize this but Vetus is almost Local!

FLORIDA BOW THRUSTERS dba Vetus Marine
MERRITT ISLAND, FL 32952
US

Paul

Paul,

With a few very notable exceptions, remember that there's near-zero truth in marine advertising. 

"Vetus Marine (.com)" isn't "Vetus (.com)"   Fla bow thrusters is simply a Vetus dealer and has just hijacked the name.   :shock: :shock:

Same as many of us Vetus and other mfgr reps (who haven't pretended to be the home companies by registering alike-sounding internet domains.)   :D

kk

Dang! Does that mean that you also supply the mounts?

Paul

Quote from: britinusa on August 04, 2016, 06:17:39 PM
Dang! Does that mean that you also supply the mounts?

Paul

Sure.  As I always say -- ask me first.  LOL 
If I don't rep the item, I'll tell yah the best place to get it.

But you did good.  With shipping they would be a few bucks more than shipping from Fla.

kk