Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: tonyhays on May 25, 2015, 10:15:53 AM

Title: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: tonyhays on May 25, 2015, 10:15:53 AM
I have never had need to use the shower sump/refrigerator drain pump (Jabsco Par Max 3) except for brief testing to verify that it worked (it did). It is located under the galley sink.  Recently I had to drain some ice water from the refrigerator but the pump no longer worked. First I changed the 5A circuit breaker, but that didn't solve the problem, so the next test was to see whether voltage was getting to the motor. To do that I had to take the cover off the end of the motor, which revealed that it had been improperly wired.  One of the wires was about two inches too long, and the extra loop had been stuffed into the motor.  This loop had touched the rotor, so that when the motor was operated the wiring insulation was very quickly abraded which proceeded to short the armature.  I can only surmise that the POs had never used the pump.  The solution should be easy - shorten the wire to remove the loop (including the abraded section) and resolder to the motor terminal.  The problem is that there is now no continuity between the wire at the output of the panel circuit breaker and the end of the wire at the motor (or rather at the abraded section where the wire is visible).  My question is - is there another fuse or circuit breaker somewhere in the wiring between the panel circuit breaker and the motor? The wiring diagrams on pages 36-37 of the Owner's Manual show a continuous wire between the panel and the motor, but a continuity test shows an open circuit. What should I try next?
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 25, 2015, 11:46:11 AM
Quote from: Tony Hays on May 25, 2015, 10:15:53 AMWhat should I try next?

Get some wire, add a fuse and run it from the battery terminals to the pump.
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: tonyhays on May 25, 2015, 12:24:23 PM
Hi Stu - I'm sure your suggestion would get the motor to work, but I'm looking for a solution that would restore the ship's wiring to its original state, or something very close to it. I think that that would require finding out why the wire from the circuit breaker to the motor has lost continuity.
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 25, 2015, 01:17:56 PM
Well, then, there's only one other thing to do, right?  :D  ITWMB, I'd simply trace the wire all the way back.  It's not that far...  I've done it myself, many times.  No telling where it could have gotten dinged.  If it's electrical it's either the wiring or the connections, and 99% of the time it's the latter. Good luck.
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: tonyhays on May 25, 2015, 01:29:44 PM
The wire runs in black corrugated plastic conduit. How do I trace the wire back without slicing the conduit open?
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: Ron Hill on May 25, 2015, 01:32:12 PM
Tony : Are both the positive and the ground wires showing no continuity?
 
If so you can use the present wires as a tracer, attach 2 new wires and pull them thru the inside of the conduit.

A thought

Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: tonyhays on May 25, 2015, 01:45:21 PM
I'll give it a try.  Thanks for your suggestions
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 25, 2015, 01:57:41 PM
Tony, I hear ya.  I'm very glad our boat is old enough ( :clap :clap :clap) to not have those conduits.  I've always found them to create more problems than they solve, just as in your case.

You can either use Ron's idea, which is quite good, or just run new wires outside the conduit and wire tie them to the conduit.  The + & - wiring is also available in duplex wiring with its own covering.  While more expensive than single wires, it's a neater solution, and I'd guess you maybe have all of 15 feet to deal with.  You could abandon the old wiring and clearly label it, or pull it out.

Before running it, you could use it to connect to the panel and run to the pump and try it out first.  That's what I'd do and have done.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: tonyhays on May 25, 2015, 02:02:49 PM
Currently I'm at home and the boat is about 40 miles away.  Do you know offhand what gauge wire I should buy?
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 25, 2015, 03:13:13 PM
Tony,

I've found these helpful:  http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Marine-Wire-Size-And-Ampacity (http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Marine-Wire-Size-And-Ampacity)

Motor amperage is most likely anywhere from 4 to 10 amps.  10A for 20 feet is 12 gauge.  Sounds right.  ITWMB, I'd check on 10 gauge and then as always check the wire fuse size required.

Like this:  Blue Sea Tables  https://www.bluesea.com/support/reference (https://www.bluesea.com/support/reference)

Scroll down to find the PDF download:  Correct Size Wire & Fuse Chart.  Handy to keep around.
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: KWKloeber on May 25, 2015, 10:08:13 PM
Quote from: Tony Hays on May 25, 2015, 02:02:49 PM
Currently I'm at home and the boat is about 40 miles away.  Do you know offhand what gauge wire I should buy?

Tony,

There's two aspects to correct wire sizing --

(1) the amperage that the wire size can handle (i.e. keeping the wire cool enough so that the insulation doesn't melt -- it doesn't matter whether the run is 1-foot or 100-feet,) and

(2) the voltage loss of the run.  (i.e., is there enough voltage left over to power the equipment, light, etc. -- the loss is proportional to the length of the run.)

Typically, (2) voltage loss -- is the controlling factor.  e.g., for a 10-amp load, single conductors (not bundled), outside the heat of the engine space -- 18-AWG is plenty to handle 10 amps.  It doesn't matter the length of the run.  However, voltage loss for 10 amps, 30-feet total run (positive feed and negative return) is 2 volts or over 16-percent loss - unacceptable.

If you use 12-AWG, the loss is 1/2 volt, or 4%.  Acceptable, because it's not a critical circuit (such as nav. lights.)  But, if you pay a few pennies more for 10 awg, the loss is 2.3% or 0.3 volts.  Overkill?  Probably, but the way I look at it is --- if it's less than 10 bucks and it's a one-time purchase -- then I will overkill it just for peace of mine.  I try to keep any new wiring for critical circuits at < 1% voltage loss (ABYC allows 3% loss).  For lighting and other non-critical circuits, I like to keep it < 3% or 5% max (10% is allowed.)  Tinned copper is one of those things that I feel is a good investment on a boat and don't mind buying heavier than I absolutely need.

Here's a great interactive calculator for voltage loss:
www.bestboatwire.com/voltage-drop-calculator
Mike is the competition, but he is a good guy and also a very good source for wire, etc., at a reasonable price.

Note that yellow is the new black -- ABYC is recommending yellow as an alternate for grounds (negative returns) because confusing a black 120v positive conductor with a black 12v negative conductor can lead to disaster (not to mention death.)

Good luck.
Ken
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: Ken Juul on May 26, 2015, 12:00:25 PM
On my boat the fresh water pump must be turned on to get power to the shower sump pump.
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: tonyhays on May 26, 2015, 03:39:54 PM
Hi Ken -

That's very interesting, and nobody had mentioned that possibility before.  That would require that the circuit breakers be in series with the fresh water circuit breaker being upstream and carrying the load for both the fresh water pump and the shower sump pump. The shower sump pump breaker would have to be downstream and carrying the load for only the shower sump pump. That can't be the case for our boat because the downstream side of the circuit breaker for the shower sump pump is either live or not live depending on the position of the circuit breaker, independently of the fresh water pump circuit breaker.  The wire for the shower sump pump circuit breaker disappears into the black corrugated conduit and appears to emerge under the galley sink.  Other things may be happening behind the chart plotter at the nav station or under the cabin sole, but I can't figure out how to pull the chart plotter out to look behind it, and I don't think anything can be happening under the cabin sole because it's inaccessible. If anyone reading this can tell me how to remove the Raymarine Raychart 570 chart plotter, it would be appreciated.  The Raytheon manual isn't very helpful.
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 26, 2015, 03:48:48 PM
Tony,

Got a picture?

While Ken's may work like that, ours doesn't.  There are two separate breakers:  one for the water pressure, one for the "sump pump."  There is, of course, the separate switch in the head compartment for the pump.  Sump pump breaker ON the switch in the head compartment works the pump when showering.

That's what the wiring diagram in the manual shows, too.

"Under the galley sink..." has me confused.  Do you mean under the head?



Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: tonyhays on May 26, 2015, 03:54:09 PM
For anyone following this thread from the beginning, I can report that I carried out the first step outlined in my first post.  I took the motor/pump assembly home, shortened the power leads to remove the abraded sections, resoldered them to the small circuit board at the top end of the motor and successfully bench tested it.  So the only remaining issue is getting power back to the motor.
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: tonyhays on May 26, 2015, 04:44:53 PM
Hi Stu -

I have lots of photos, but I don't think any of them would be of much use.  On the Mk II (or at least on our boat), the shower sump pump is located under the galley sink, and doubles as the refrigerator drain pump.  Each drain line has its own shutoff valve so it's important that only one valve be opened at a time, otherwise the pump will simply be sucking air from the line that doesn't have any water in it.  Page 37 of the Catalina 34 Mk II Owner's Manual that can be found online (I guess I downloaded it from the Catalina website) has a scrap view titled DETAIL "A" BATTERY WIRING UNDER GALLEY AREA and shows a pump under the sink labelled item 19, which the PARTS LIST on page 36 shows as PUMP, SHOWER SUMP/ICE BOX.  However, the diagram of the electrical panel on page 37 doesn't show the circuit breaker for the shower sump pump/ice box drain pump at all, and therefore doesn't show the wiring or switches that might be downstream of it. 

But you raise a very important point.  Is there a shower sump drain switch in the head?  If there is, I had forgotten clean about it.  It would explain my problem entirely if it had been by chance been in the ON position when I tested the pump about six months ago and is now in the OFF position.  I think you have just saved my life, or at least if not my life, my sanity. 
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 26, 2015, 05:21:25 PM
Tony, reason I asked is your comment: "...but I can't figure out how to pull the chart plotter out to look behind it,..."

Many folks choose not to use their boats to shower and go ashore.  I've always used ours on the boat.

There is (should be) a "Pump" or "Shower Pump" toggle switch just below the rim of the head sink.

Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: tonywright on May 26, 2015, 06:24:15 PM
Tony

To answer your last question: YES! The on/off switch for that pump is in the head (on the wall behind the toilet bowl). You need both the circuit breaker on and that switch to be on to run that pump.

From another Tony
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: tonyhays on May 26, 2015, 06:36:27 PM
Stu - It makes sense to have a switch in the head so that the level of water in the shower sump can be controlled from that location.  Of course you have to make sure that the circuit breaker is ON on the panel, and that the two valves under the galley sink are set appropriately. You also have to remember, as I obviously didn't, to turn the switch ON in the head when draining the refrigerator. I'll go up to the boat tomorrow and hope to get everything working.  

Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: tonyhays on May 26, 2015, 06:40:26 PM
Tony Wright - Thanks for the confirmation.  I'm sure that you and Stu have solved the problem.
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: Jack Hutteball on May 28, 2015, 07:40:05 PM
One other comment I would make is to make sure that your thru hull for the shower/refer drain is open when you turn the pump on.  If it is closed you will overheat the pump and the breaker will shut off.  Been there and done that, makes one feel rather silly when the pump stops and the water level flows over the door sill onto the galley floor!

Jack
Title: Re: Shower Sump Pump Not Working
Post by: tonyhays on May 30, 2015, 12:26:49 PM
(http://www.adac.aero/images/20150523_184204.jpg)  Here is a picture of the extra loop of wire that had been stuffed into the pump motor and had been touching the rotor.  This presumably had occurred during initial pump assembly, because attachment of the end cover of the motor prevents movement of the wires.  In retrospect, I think that the motor was still working (just) and the abraded section of wire was working as a brush, although maybe supplying current at the wrong phase.  It probably would not have worked for long before the wire itself abraded through.  The immediate cause of the pump not running was my own stupidity in forgetting about the switch just above the toilet bowl in the head.  I reinstalled the pump and everything is working fine.  Thanks to Stu Jackson for reminding of the existence of the switch, and to all others for their advice.