OK, I want to replace my Racor. Instruction #1... Shut off fuel valve. Makes sense, but how in the heck to you get to it? I can see it when opening my sink cabinet door in the head, but I'm pretty sure my arm is no where long enough to reach it. I know there is an access port inside my lazarette, but again, my body ain't going to fit in there in order to reach it. Am I going to have to take the port side panel in the aft cabin down to get to it?
Chuck, on my boat I empty or clear the port locker of stuff, open the round Beckson port there, and the shut off valve is right below that hole.
thanks Stu. There's no way I can fit in there to reach that access port in the back of the locker. There's a kid at the marina who's 6" shorter and probably 90 lbs lighter than me. I'm sure he'd like to make a quick $10.
Then it'd be $20 for him to come back and open it! :D
Once it's closed, take the inlet hose off the Racor and install a new second shutoff valve where you can reach it, open the old one for good and use the new one now and in the future. many have done this. I do have one, but never put it in 'cuz I use it as an excuse to clean up the port locker. :shock:
Do you still have to shut fuel off at the tank (or anywhere) if you have a electric fuel pump?? I am NOT an engine guy, so someone please let me know what's what.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on May 18, 2014, 08:20:05 PM
Then it'd be $20 for him to come back and open it! :D
Once it's closed, take the inlet hose off the Racor and install a new second shutoff valve where you can reach it, open the old one for good and use the new one now and in the future. many have done this. I do have one, but never put it in 'cuz I use it as an excuse to clean up the port locker. :shock:
I boat in the low rent district. $10 total and the kid will be more than happy.
One of my buddies on a C36 put a second shut off valve on his.
Quote from: Noah on May 18, 2014, 10:17:30 PM
Do you still have to shut fuel off at the tank (or anywhere) if you have a electric fuel pump?? I am NOT an engine guy, so someone please let me know what's what.
I had the same thought....why shut it off if the pump isn't running. I asked a buddy and he thinks it's because of the siphon effect and even though the pump isn't running, the fuel will continue to flow.
How 'bout putting your finger over the end and lifting the hose up to the fuel level and taping it there until you are done?
Shove a golf tee in the end?
I don't remember bothering to shut the valve in the past, but what do I remember anyway.
Steve
Quote from: Steve Wormsbecher on May 19, 2014, 08:41:57 AM
How 'bout putting your finger over the end and lifting the hose up to the fuel level and taping it there until you are done?
Shove a golf tee in the end?
I don't remember bothering to shut the valve in the past, but what do I remember anyway.
Steve
Assuming the fuel will continue to flow and I have to do something to stop it, if I go this route, I will have to take the hose off the racor. Sometimes hoses aren't really easy to take off and put back on. If I turn off the valve, I don't have to worry about disconnecting the hose to plug it or raise it up.
Good thought anyway. One buddy suggested clamping down on the hose with a pair of vice grips. Not sure I want to go that route.
Quote from: Noah on May 18, 2014, 10:17:30 PM
Do you still have to shut fuel off at the tank (or anywhere) if you have a electric fuel pump?? I am NOT an engine guy, so someone please let me know what's what.
The fuel pump has nothing to do with it. The tank is HIGHER than the Racor and the engine, so if the fuel SHUTOFF valve is NOT closed, fuel will flow.
Quote from: chuck53 on May 19, 2014, 10:11:03 AM
Quote from: Steve Wormsbecher on May 19, 2014, 08:41:57 AM
How 'bout putting your finger over the end and lifting the hose up to the fuel level and taping it there until you are done?
Shove a golf tee in the end?
I don't remember bothering to shut the valve in the past, but what do I remember anyway.
Steve
Assuming the fuel will continue to flow and I have to do something to stop it, if I go this route, I will have to take the hose off the Racor. Sometimes hoses aren't really easy to take off and put back on. If I turn off the valve, I don't have to worry about disconnecting the hose to plug it or raise it up.
Good thought anyway. One buddy suggested clamping down on the hose with a pair of vice grips. Not sure I want to go that route.
Those hoses should be easy to get off. If not, since you are going to ADD the valve, cutting off an inch or two won't matter. You can also get a fitting to screw into the port in the Racor and then attach the new second shutoff valve to that. Look in a a chandlerey.
If you clamp it, don't clamp it directly, you'll damage the outside of the hose. Get another hose and wrap it around or buy some leather patch material and cover the hose with that before you use the vice grips.
Wow... After all this time I never heard of someone installing a second fuel shut off valve dowenstream from the hard to reach valve under the beckson port.
I'm Planning to change my Racor in the next couple weeks so I'll have to add that nifty little mod to my task list.
Any pictures of a good mounting location Stu?
It seems I learn something new everytime i log into this forum :thumb: :abd:
Thanks Stu.
Yes, I know the tank is higher than the filter, but the hose comes out of the top of the tank, not the bottom, so the fuel has to go uphill before it runs downhill to the filter. I guess the siphon effect does take over and keeps the fuel flowing even if the pump isn't working.
Quote from: chuck53 on May 19, 2014, 11:07:59 AM
Yes, I know the tank is higher than the filter, but the hose comes out of the top of the tank, not the bottom, so the fuel has to go uphill before it runs downhill to the filter. I guess the siphon effect does take over and keeps the fuel flowing even if the pump isn't working.
Yes, that is a very good description. Think of it this way: The very LAST thing you ever want in your fuel delivery system is AIR, 'cuz the engine won't work with air in the system, hence, bleeding. The fuel line, from the bottom of the tank all the way to the injector pump on the engine, MUST be completely full with fuel ALL THE TIME. Unless you turn off the shutoff valve, fuel will continue to flow.
Just the opposite is true for the head pump, where there is an anti-siphon valve at the top of the loop to avoid continuous flow.
A few years back when I installed a new tank, it didn't include a shutoff valve and my old one was a different size. so I installed a new one closer to the Racor. I think it's a better location because it's faster to get to. I typically shut of my valve when wintering over, or leaving the boat for an extended time, so it's not like the only time I need to shut it off is to do any work on the Racor.
Ed
I just use some vicegrips to crimp the hose. It also a good way to check the condition of the fuel line. If it cracks, time to replace.
Guys : The simplest way to solve the fuel shut off is to install a ball valve in the fuel line under the head sink!!
A thought
OK, can anyone tell me the size of the fuel line so I can buy a cut off valve to put inline?
3/8"
Thanks Stu.
I never turned off the fuel valve when changing the Racor filter and I never had a problem with diesel continuing to flow. No fuel ran through our filter unless the key was turned and the fuel pump was operating. Our Racor was between our fuel pump and the fuel tank and was higher than the tank. Never had any need to bleed the system of air from changing the Racor either. Only needed to bleed the system when we changed the spin-on filter on the engine.
I (sorry Stu) agree. I watched my professional mechanic do it on my boat recently, WITHOUT turning off the fuel tank valve and not a drop of fuel was spilled. He put a small bucket under the Racor to empty the bowl into and catch any drips from that operation. No bleeding issues either. I believe fuel won't get past the electric fuel pump, at least the way it is mounted on my boat. Maybe not the same with yours.
OK guys, all good info here. so just where is the fuel pump typically mounted on a C34. mine is an '87.
Under the head sink, also read the Critical Upgrades topic
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2515.0.html
CAVEAT: it may depend where your Facet fuel pump is mounted; before or after your Racor, as to wether it stops the flow of fuel and thus spillage. My Racor filter is last in line, albeit a configuration that is discourage by some on this Forum. This may be the reason it "works" for me without shutting off the fuel line???
Quote from: Noah on May 20, 2014, 04:06:16 PM
My Racor filter is last in line, albeit a configuration that is discourage by some on this Forum.
Noah, is it not discouraged by some on this forum. It IS discouraged by the filter manufacturers and we are passing along their recommendations. In addition, logic dictates that the Racor filters be used as the primary filter, not the teeny-weeny-itsy-bitsy filter on the bottom of the fuel pump. "Your boat, your choice" is NOT operable in this instance. It's also why we keep harping on it and added it to the Critical Upgrades, http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg32616.html#msg32616. We try to be patient in repeating these things, because there are now new owners of older boats, and their POs may not have been "exposed" to this website. We welcome them all and hope they take advantage of the the Forum and the sticky topics, especially Critical Upgrades, which we feel, in many cases, are safety issues. For example, if your engine shuts down because your tiny fuel pump filter is your first filter, you probably won't be a happy sailor.
I was not touting the merits of the fuel pump placement, (before or after the Racor) nor the filtration benefits. I was just conjecturing if its placement has an impact on whether fuel continues to flow into the Racor without the engine running. I welcome all experienced opinions, as I am new to this boat. I was planning on upgrading my Racor to a newer Parker drop-in canister model (like Susan did on Tranquility recently), at my next scheduled filter change. After the initial investment, the subsequent filter changes are a lot cheaper. I may relocate the fuel pump behind the Racor at that time, after evaluating all of the info and opinions, including that of my master mechanic, who curiously, thought my pump's current placement was "correct". Lots to consider. Always learning!
Our Racor was between the fuel tank and the fuel pump. Both the fuel pump and the Racor were inside the head door.
Guys : If the fuel tank is over 1/2 full the fuel will syphon!!
The simplest thing is to get a ball valve with a NPT to screw into the Racor filter inlet and the other end of the ball valve should have barbed 3/8" adapter to go into the fuel hose.
This all has been written up before!
Quote from: Ron Hill on May 21, 2014, 05:10:14 PM
Guys : If the fuel tank is over 1/2 full the fuel will syphon!!
Right now, my tank is less than 1/4 full. Can I get away with not having to turn off my fuel valve? life would be so much easier if I didn't have to do that just to replace my Racor.
I don't mean to hijack this thread with another thought - just adding to this conversation. I installed this Racor pressure gauge a few seasons ago and do not now routinely change out the filter every year because I found I didn't need to. The absence of an increase in pressure at the gauge indicates the filter is good for more time. So far, so good.
That's cool - something else to put on the Father's Day gift list. Better than a tie for sure.
Chuck, I used to change that filter every year as part of the annual maintenance and I don't recall ever having to shut the fuel off. pretty sure that my memory is good on that.
Quote from: BillG on May 23, 2014, 06:30:13 AM
Chuck, I used to change that filter every year as part of the annual maintenance and I don't recall ever having to shut the fuel off. pretty sure that my memory is good on that.
Bill, good to hear from you. I'm sorry to say that this is the first time I have changed my fuel filters, but the engine runs good without any hiccups at all.
I'm sure if you had turned off the valve, you would remember. There's no way I can reach it through the sink cabinet or crawl far enough into the port locker to reach into the inspection port.
Quote from: chuck53 on May 23, 2014, 08:56:46 AM
There's no way I can reach it through the sink cabinet or crawl far enough into the port locker to reach into the inspection port.
I've heard this many, many times. I still have difficulty understanding it, because the Beckson plate is mid-way across the width of the port locker to be able to be "somewhere close" to above the shut off valve. No one I know could reach it from underneath the head sink, even a basketball player! :D
Like this:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6760.msg45303.html#msg45303 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6760.msg45303.html#msg45303)
Perhaps the factory put the hole in the wrong place. Coulda happened.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on May 23, 2014, 09:47:54 AM
Quote from: chuck53 on May 23, 2014, 08:56:46 AM
There's no way I can reach it through the sink cabinet or crawl far enough into the port locker to reach into the inspection port.
I've heard this many, many times. I still have difficulty understanding it, because the Beckson plate is mid-way across the width of the port locker to be able to be "somewhere close" to above the shut off valve. No one I know could reach it from underneath the head sink, even a basketball player! :D
My Beckson port is all the way over to the side of the boat, not mid-way in the locker. I saw the picture of the guy laying in the locker. I could probably lay in the locker like that on my back, but unfortunately, my arm won't bend backwards to reach into the port. The only way you could reach the shut off valve would be to lay on your stomach to reach in and there is no way in hell that I can fit in that locker on my stomach to do it. Like I said, I could probably get some young teenager that is a lot smaller than me to do it, but seems like I won't have to turn it off as the PO never did when he changed his filters.
Chuck, sorry to hear the factory put the Beckson in the wrong place.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on May 23, 2014, 12:00:04 PM
Chuck, sorry to hear the factory put the Beckson in the wrong place.
If I get down on my hands and knees in the head, I can see the shut off valve as well as the Beckson port. The port is several inches off to the side of the valve, not over it. I really don't think even a small teenager could reach the valve, meaning I would have to remove the aft cabin panel that hides the fuel tank.
But since the PO never turned it off when changing filters, I guess I don't have to either.
Chuck : Yes, do nothing until you change a Racor filter and it siphons and you are in panic to shut off the dripping/running fuel!!
Quote from: Ron Hill on May 25, 2014, 02:54:38 PM
Chuck : Yes, do nothing until you change a Racor filter and it siphons and you are in panic to shut off the dripping/running fuel!!
Ron, I hear what you are saying but if you go up about 5-6 posts to the one from BillG, he's the previous owner of my boat and had it for a number of years before selling to me. He says he never turned off the fuel valve and never had any issues. I have no reason not to believe him.
I will have a pair of vice grips (with something to act as a pad) close at hand just in case.
I really don't won't to tear my aft cabin apart just to get to the valve if I don't have to.
You're going to want to have lots of paper towels underneath the filter assembly regardless of the siphon issue - the bowl is going to be full of diesel and some inevitably is going to drip. Loosen it slowly and see what happens. If Ron is right and fuel is siphoning through the filter assembly, you should be able to tighten it back up with little fuel loss and then you can take the aft panel off to close the valve.
I am betting your boat is like ours and it is not necessary to close the valve but I wouldn't ever put real money down against either Stu or Ron.
Chuck52 : Obviously BillG (PO) kept his fuel tank at a low level so the fuel was below the height of the mounted Racor.
Look under the head sink and look at the fuel tank and you can decide.
Most prudent sailor keep their fuel tank topped off so you get less condensation and then less "nasties" are growing in the fuel. Your choice
A thought
Chuck, my email address is still the same, wlgski @ aol, send me an email and I will send you some further info.
Bill
Just a taught, couldn't you take a piece like your boat hook and try to close the valve by the door under the head sink ?
I have not look at this, but may be possible.... :donno:
Quote from: patrice on May 29, 2014, 08:51:05 AM
Just a taught, couldn't you take a piece like your boat hook and try to close the valve by the door under the head sink ?
I have not look at this, but may be possible.... :donno:
Good thought but I'm pretty sure the valve is fairly small and really needs the dexterity of a hand to open/close it.
Pat & Chuck : Let us know how much maneuvering you can do with a boat hook thru the door opening under the head sink - aught to be some interesting gyrations.
BTW, the cutoff on the top of the fuel is NOT a ball valve, rather it's a gate valve!!
A thought
http://www.westmarine.com/fuel-accessories/sierra--shut-off-valve-2-way-1-4-fnpt-male-male-universal--14605299 (http://www.westmarine.com/fuel-accessories/sierra--shut-off-valve-2-way-1-4-fnpt-male-male-universal--14605299)
West Marine stocks their version of this <$10 valve for $40
http://www.westmarine.com/west-marine/west-marine--shut-off-valves--P013854773 (http://www.westmarine.com/west-marine/west-marine--shut-off-valves--P013854773)
They come in different sizes and you can get them for the 3/8" fuel hose on our boats.
There's also this older post:
Complete Fuel Filtration
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,1213.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,1213.0.html)
Guys : The Sierra valve that Stu shows is one similar to what I have. Mine has a 3/8" hose barb on the right end and threaded NPT on the left side.
So just screw the valve into the inlet of the Racor top and the fuel hose into the other end!! Now you have a fuel cutoff that easy to reach.
Word of caution - don't forget to turn the valve back ON after changing the filter!! You'd be surprised how long the engine will run, BUT it is assured to quit from fuel starvation just as you are entering your slip!! Believe ME!!!!
Quote from: Ron Hill on May 30, 2014, 05:18:43 PM
Pat & Chuck : Let us know how much maneuvering you can do with a boat hook thru the door opening under the head sink - aught to be some interesting gyrations.
I have no intention of using a boat hook or similar device to turn off the valve. As I said, it needs the dexterity of a hand to open and close.
OK, one more question....the PO left me lots of good infomaion when we bought the boat. Included was a good list of parts, filters, belts, etc.
He listed the Racor filter as a R125UL. I can't find that number anywhere. Is it an old number they no longer use? When I look at the filter, there's no part number listed, at least on the side I can see. Obviously, I don't want the take that filter off until I have a replacement.
Any suggestions?
Quote from: chuck53 on June 01, 2014, 06:21:28 PM
When I look at the filter, there's no part number listed, at least on the side I can see. Obviously, I don't want the take that filter off until I have a replacement.
Any suggestions?
Have you considered using a mirror and a flashlight?
Quote from: Stu Jackson on June 01, 2014, 06:43:24 PM
Quote from: chuck53 on June 01, 2014, 06:21:28 PM
When I look at the filter, there's no part number listed, at least on the side I can see. Obviously, I don't want the take that filter off until I have a replacement.
Any suggestions?
Have you considered using a mirror and a flashlight?
Yes, I have. Just haven't had the chance.
The Racor on our 1989 C34 was a 220 Spin-on model that took R24 filters. I've attached the Parker brochure for this model. No way to tell if this is the right model and filter for your boat without seeing it.
Thanks claygr, but that doesn't look like mine. next weekend I'll try to get my hands on a small mirror (I guess I forgot to put one in my toolbox) and try to see if there are any part numbers on the backside of my filter. if there's no info on the filter, I'll pull out my Instamatic and take a couple of photos.
think my handwriting needs improvement, I think that should read R12S NOT R125, not sure what the UL is, don't have that in my old maintenance log, just checked and they have them at west marine
Quote from: BillG on June 03, 2014, 04:53:27 PM
think my handwriting needs improvement, I think that should read R12S NOT R125, not sure what the UL is, don't have that in my old maintenance log, just checked and they have them at west marine
Bill, thanks for the reply. When I'm on the boat this weekend, I'll go back to your book and look again.
Edit,
I googled R12SUL and it popped up. It is a legit number for a 2 micron filter and the picture looks right. I'll check the book this weekend and try to find a small mirror to check the backside of the filter. After reading various posts here on filtration, I think I will replace it with a 10 micron.
chuck, that "101 Topics" has some easy-to-find material, in addition to the Tech wiki
Fuel Filtration 101 (with both primary Racor and secondary engine filter identification)
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,1124.0.html and http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6475.0.html