A couple of weeks ago, I attended the San Diego Catalina Association meeting along with Ralph... AKA SDDIVER. We had a good time and the highlight of the meeting was a local marine surveyor offering a few tips and observations. One of the things brought up is tasting the bilge water for salt or fresh. He was pretty insistant about NOT tasting the water. He said there was an alternative way to test and it is referenced below. I found this an interesting subject and thought I would pass it around to share with the group. The following is from a newsletter he just published:
Christian & Company Marine Surveyors
May 27th 2011
Don't taste the water (in the bilge)
I did it for decades. I still see others doing it regularly. There's water in the bilge and we want to know, is it fresh or salt? It does make a difference. In most instances, fresh water is from the water tank and can't sink the boat. Salt water is from the ocean and can sink the boat. A taste quickly answers the question and then we continue on the process of solving the problem at hand. One solution for fresh water and another for salt water. No big deal... WRONG!
The bilge is usually a dirty, unclean, cesspool that collects all manner of pollutants and contaminates. The bilge is the bottom of a vessel in which there are tanks holding fuel and waste. There are hoses with connections to fittings carrying the fuel and waste. The boat moves, vibrates, heats and cools and these fluids do not stay contained. The leaking fluids usually find their way to the bottom of the boat, the bilge.
The normal maintenance of the boat including washing the exterior, cleaning the interior, and the sinks, showers, and sump collectors are all sources of contaminants. Cleaning chemicals, debris tracked in on shoes, and other people's hair... blech!
An occupational health and safety doctor followed a marine surveyor on a job a few years back and then spoke to a surveyor's association meeting. He started and ended with one clear message. In between, he discussed other issues, confined spaces, gas freeing of tanks, ladders, big boats suspended over our heads, but above all he stressed one simple behavioral change. "Don't taste the bilge water!"
Few people will be in the position of wanting to know if the bilge water is fresh or salt as often as a marine surveyor. However, as a boater, you will inevitably be asking that question at some point in your boating career. I did not realize how often this situation arose, until I stopped doing it. In my normal course of inspecting boats, I am asked if the water is salt or fresh once a week. It is often not said, but implied that I should taste it; after all I am the surveyor. I'll suggest a safe way to answer this question later, but the most important immediate response is, "I aint tastin' it, and you shouldn't either."
The good doctor that advised the large audience of marine surveyors against using our taste buds to determine salt or fresh, had sound reasons. He mentioned several diseases, including incurable ones like hepatitis. He also mentioned several other terms that I did not comprehend, and don't want to, but more than one included the term "fecal", enough said.
So, I don't care how many times you have done it or how long you have been doing it, stop tasting the bilge water now. I am sure I have tasted the bilge water for as long and as many times as most of you, but I stopped cold turkey, no 12 step program, no counseling, I didn't start smoking or eat more pie as a substitute. I just stopped and have lived for several years now with no detrimental side effects. If I can stop, so can you!
Now, that we have eliminated tasting the water as a means of determining its source, which can be a very important determination, what do we do? A common method used by professionals is the use of silver nitrite. A few crystals of silver nitrate in the unknown water will quickly provide the answer. White deposits in the bottom mean salt water. A light cloud suspended indicates fresh water.
The small package you get to preserve fresh cut flowers is made of Silver Nitrate. 8)
Great post!
However, I stopped tasting the bilge water in Kitty's Cat about 2 years after acquiring her. I could never tell whether the water was from the inside or outside of the boat. Yes, I have taste buds; but, we're on a lake. I started noticing that not only was I tasting the bilge more often for no reason at all; but, that I was starting to sample the dog bowls too.
I had to open this post based on title alone. It sounded like an invitation to an event. Made me wonder if the bilge water tasting would be accompanied with cheese or chocolate.
My bilge water isn't fresh or salty. It's mixed. A few drips from the packing gland, following seas in the pump outlets, rainwater down the mast. So the question is always "how salty is it?" If it was overwhelming my 3 electric bilge pumps, I would have my lips stuck in it though, rather than looking for the silver nitrate.
What if we boil it first?
Would mixing it with vodka kill the jerms?
Now the mixing it with Vodka sounds like sound advice, or maybe just skip the bilge water and go straight up Vodka. Or skip the vodka and go straight up bilge water.
In my 30 years in the Navy as a pipe fitter I tasted more then a few samples of water looking fluid dripping from pipes, but I always had a good idea of where it was from. And like most 34's I really have a broad spectrum of clear liquids that get into the bilges, including seawater from shaft packing drip off. I gave up tasting a long while back, didn't have to use a patch or anything, went cold turkey. It really doesn't matter what the liquid is, just get it out. We use a wet vac for small amounts.
If you run into me at the club house and want to buy me a beer some time you can hear about the JP-5 in the seven up bottle back in 73, that's a story worth a beer........................
Ralph
Ciao Bella
Quote from: SD Diver on May 30, 2011, 08:13:21 AM
If you run into me at the club house and want to buy me a beer some time you can hear about the JP-5 in the seven up bottle back in 73, that's a story worth a beer........................
Ah, Ralph, sorry I can't make it to your clubhouse, but I'm glad to see the effects still haven't worn off... :shock:
The prices we pay for a dry bilge.
Guys, Susan and D.Gill : If you use drippless packing you can usually tell where the water is coming from by which bilge compartment the water is initially in.
If the water is in the 1st compartment (ahead of the mast) and the 2nd (just aft of the mast) and possibly into the 3rd, but no water in the 4th - it's most likely rainwater which came down (SOMEHOW??) down the mast.
If you've been running in a heavy following sea, you'll probably have salt water in the 3rd compartment(initially) coming in thru the electric bilge pump exit on the transom.
etc.etc.
My idea is to keep that smelly, corrosive, nasty salt water out of the bilge!! It's not that hard to do. A thought
Ron
When I do the haul out and bottom job I am one hundred percent sure I am upgrading to the drippless packing. Only question is do I need to replace the shaft as well? I have the bronze/brass shaft now and not sure if I need to upgrade that to the stainless. I think the answer to that will be if there is any scoring on the shaft from the old packing. Correct me if I am mistaken.
Thanks,
Ralph
Yes you are correct, it depends on the condition of your shaft. I had a PSS dripless system installed at Shelter Island when I bought my boat three years ago and they had to replace my shaft because it was scored.
Gary,
Thanks for the insight. The shelter Island Boat Yard is the yard I was going to use. They were able to make that call and have the new shaft available without delay?? Then that is the direction I should go. (I have to adjust that stupid packing every other time underway, what a PITA)
Ralph
Ralph -
The Shelter Island Boatyard referred had Steve Hooper (619) 222-8435 do the work. He was very good and was very reasonable ($26.25/hr). Let them know what you want before you take the boat over so that they can get the parts they need beforehand. Everything took place in the normal time to paint the bottom.
Gary
$26.25 an hour!!! Holy Cow!!! Next time I need work done I think I'll truck my boat to San Diego . . . it might be cheaper!
Another of the many things that needed attention before the Spring 2011 launch was to maintain the PSS. I ordered the maintenance kit from PYI and had it installed. PYI recommend every 6 years to have it rebuilt, I went seven. Note that a professional did the work at New York prices, as a friend he gave me a break...$100/hour. The only water in the bilge (so far) has been run-off down my mast.
Great information David. I had no idea that a maintenance kit was recommended for those things.
Thanks,
Ralph
Ciao Bella
Ralph : You can change your packing while the boat is in the water. You guessed it - I published a Mainsheet article with that title.
Just get everything ready before hand ie. cut the 3 rings (45 degree angle) have a sharpened bent coat hanger to get the old packing out and do it!! I've changed mine twice in the water with no problem - you won't even come close to flooding the boat. Just follow the instructions - it's easy.
I wouldn't worry about scoring of the shaft in the packing gland as it's unusual. Most scoring of the shaft occurs inside the cutless bearing.
I'm NOT a fan of the PSS or billows as if the billows get ruptured (for what ever the reason) you better find a travel lift fast. Where as with a packing gland nut you could even cut pieces of shoe string (if necessary) and stuff it in there until you could get it looked at.
My neighbor slip mate almost lost his boat last year when his bellows ruptured.
A few thoughts.
Not ever having dealt with a packing gland am am not qualified to comment on it. But my PYI PSS has worked effectively for the 7+ seasons used in Northeastern conditions. As long as it is "burped" after launching, and "burped" if air was introduced under the boat, ie. bottom cleaned by a scuba diver (me).
When the mechanic replaced the bellows and o-rings that came with the rebuilding kit, ($75 from PYI), the replaced bellows showed little if any wear, it was supple and flexible, (unlike myself!) The newer PSS model has a fitting where "burping" is not necessary. A fellow C34 owner in my marina had a problem with this particular unit as the shipyard incorrectly connected a hose from the fitting to the bilge and water was introduced into the bilge at an alarming rate. I look forward to another 7+ years of minimal "burping" to keep salt water out of the bilge. One less thing to worry about.
Thanks for the note Ron. I have not had to change the packing yet, I back off the lock nut, twist the gland nut about an 1/8 inch by hand and reset the lock nut. I figure as long as I can adjust it that easily there is no need to repack. I have looked into repacking with the Gore stuff. The hardest part of adjusting the packing is getting to it. Moving the micro wave that's stored back there, the coffee maker, the three tupper ware storage boxes of clothing, moving the mattress, and the cockpit cusions and then putting it all back after a 5 minute job. As you are well aware of, there is no such thing as a 5 minute job.
Ralph
David,
When you replace the bellows and o-rings do you have to have the boat out of the water??? And disconnect the prop shaft and pull it back just a bit??
Thanks,
Ralph
I had the same done after 5 years (recommended interval) and the answer to both questions is yes (Boat out of the water, and need to disconnect and pull back the shaft). And I took the opportunity to add the vent line (the replacement carbon fitting with the vent was supplied at no charge by PYI, because without it the bellows needed to be burped regularly).
Tony
Thanks Tony, great answer.
Ralph