After noticing some water in the bilge yesterday while motoring at 2500rpm in calm seas, I checked the engine (25xp) and found salt water pouring out of the raw water pump weep holes. Apparently it's been happening to some extent for awhile, at least since I've been in there 6 months ago. Since the water is coming from the weep holes and the pump is pumping fine, I'll assume that the seal has gone bad. (Thanks Stu for the critical upgrades thread!!). My question is, should I try to replace the seals myself or take it off and have the pump professionally rebuilt or just buy a new pump. (Torresen, $267.00, I'll also check DEPCO). Does anyone know of a good supplier/rebuilder in the SF Bay Area? Also, because of the corrosion to the area below the pump, I again assume I should clean with wire brush and, of course, repaint unless there's a critical step I'm missing. I'll also replace all hoses and clamps. I've also seached "Oberdorfer" and found some good info here.
Thanks in advance for any advise!
Now I'll lift my skirt here and show you pictures and the damage below the pump. Like Stu say's, "A picture is worth a thousand words". See the pictures here:
http://public.fotki.com/Sailorick/sv_painkiller/water-pump/ (http://public.fotki.com/Sailorick/sv_painkiller/water-pump/)
Thanks Again!
Rick
Rich, I'll bet KKMI will redo your pump seals for you. No need to buy a new pump. Or Sea Power in Oakland is the local Universal supplier, who will do the seals or sell them to you. Only reasons I bought a new pump in 1998 was 1) it cost as much to redo the seals as a new pump; 2) I didn't know any better. You can do it if you know how, I've read about it, haven't done it myself, Calder has a good description.
Say it after Rich: "I promise to check my engine when it's running more than once every six months."
"I promise to check my engine when it's running more than once every six months."
What would I do without you Stu!
Some thoughts from my experience rebuilding a Sherwood pump a few months ago...
The seals will probably be expensive if you get them thru a marine distributor like Torresen. Mine was about $35.
If the seal was bad, your bearings are probably bad as well and will need to be replaced. I got mine from a local supply shop and only paid a couple of dollars each for them.
My seal was a PITA to remove, basically had to destroy it to get it out.
If you don't have a fancy tool to press in seals, I would find a piece of metal pipe that just fits the outside rim of the seal, set it on the rim of the seal and use a mallet to uniformly smack it into place.
Remember that you'll probably have to replace the gaskets between the pump body and engine block, and the gasket between the cover and the pump body. Those are cheap and easy.
If you can get someone to rebuild it for around $100, I'd let them deal with it. Or if you just want to do it yourself, it isn't that complex, especially if you have some mechanical skills or, like me, find some friends with some skills to help.
Good luck. It feels good to have a rebuilt pump that doesn't leak.
The question can't be answered until you get the pump open. Is the shaft reusable? Any other corrosion damage caused by the raw water? If you remember the thread a few months ago....are you sure the oil seal is still working or do you have water in your oil?
If all is fine, the rebuild itself isn't that hard. A normal socket set should have the correct size to tap the seals in place. Don't cheap out. Do a complete rebuild, both seals and all gaskets. Unless you want the opportunity to do it again in a few months.
Rick : I just looked at your pictures - WOW!!. Think you'd better start checking your oil every week and start looking around your engine for existing & potential problems.
Look in the Mainsheet tech notes and you'll find an article I wrote on rebuilding your Oberdoffer yourself. I bought an extra pump and when a problem came up I replaced it with the extra that was ready to go. Then took the old pump back home and rebuilt it.
I'm going to guess that you'll probably need a new shaft also. I'd get all of that salt off of everything and keep your fingers crossed. As I wrote many years ago "wouldn't it be ashame that a C34 owner had to replace the oil pan just because the raw water pump was leaking and the salt water ate thru the metal!".
A few thoughts.
Rick,
You might want to consider replacing the forward stbd motor mount as soon as you can. Ron Hill wrote an excellent article a number of years ago about doing it without removing the engine.
Rick : Tom is correct on that engine mount.
You need to get all of that salt water corrosion off of the engine and inspect every piece that it was on, i.e. the fuel filter bracket etc. etc.
Thanks all for great suggestions and advise! It's going to be a busy weekend!! I'll also post some pictures of the repairs.
One can do a complete rebuild of an "old sherwood" for less than a hundred bucks in the marina parking lot with a vice and a socket set (Tom, still got yours? :clap)
Never rebuilt an Oberdorfer, but if its anything like the new Sherwoods, it could be a bit challenging. As PK mentioned, there appears to be a lot of corrosion that develops in the newer pumps making the pump hard to disassemble...particularly the seals (why to do they put all that ferrous metal in there?!?!). We couldn't get the 10 year old seals out of a "new sherwood" in a 1.5 ton press...until it simmered for a couple hours in PB blaster followed by several smacks with a 6 pound mallet. To echo Ken, plan to replace everything in there. After disassembly, there wasn't one internal part of that pump that could be reused...coulda been that mallet though... :shock:
Good luck Rick!!
Well after looking at Rick's pictures, I went down to the boat and started the engine and then took the covers off and just watched the engine run for a while to see if any water appeared. After about 5 minuets at idle a small drop appeared in the weep hole. Not much of a leak, but a leak just the same. So I think I will rebuild my pump too. Where do I order the Oberdorfer parts from?
DEPCO - search for the phone # from earlier posts
I had Carl Stirtz in Oakland rebuild my pump for a very reasonable price.
Basically all you need is a decent press to do the job. If I recall he also
smoothed out the pump's face plate on his bench belt sander as it has
some slight wear marks/grooves.
[wiki]Engine_Rebuild[/wiki] has some photos of my pump rebuild.
Look at img #8 my oberdorph has the weep hole on the bottom,this one is at 2 oclock. I don't think there are two weep holes,I'd sure have oil sample taken
Al
Lucky hull #13
1986 34
Just got back from Lucky,I was wrong about weep hole at 2 o clock I have the same thing,but also weep hole on the bottom.The bad news is I found red oil under the engine.
Al
Lucky hull#13
1986 catalina
engine oil should not be red. After about an hour even brand new oil turns black. Spillage from filling should be brownish in color. Transmission fluid is always red in color.
Al / Lucky -
Start looking a little further aft of the water pump. Red oil is probably Transmission fluid. . . . Been there.
Michael
Lucky : I'll guess that your "red" oil is rust in a few drops of engine oil.
What you need to do is run the engine and look at the weep holes to see what if anything is coming out.
Tom : Rebuilding an Oberdorfer is a breeze compared to that DAMN Sherwood. You can get Oberdorfer parts at a great discount cost from DEPCO (800-445-1656), but Sherwood parts you'll have to pay for as NO one is allowed to discount Sherwood parts.
You'll seldom have to replace the oil lip seal on an Oberdorfer because it's leaking - as the oil keeps it lubed. However, to replace the water lip seal you'll first have to remove the oil lip seal. Hence, you'll always have to replace both seals when fixing an raw water leak.
You'll usually have to replace the stainless shaft, as it'll have a grove worn where the seal rides.
A few thoughts
Hi Rick, I just went through the same exercise this season; initially, I thought the problem was a worn gasket...not the case as I soon discovered. Ultimately I was able to order the repair kit from Oboerdorfer through a local dealer, and ended up replacing the seals and (graphite) bearing sleeve myself. The trickiest part of the exercise was the replacement of the graphite sleeve. It was a "press fit" operation, with the very brittle graphite sleeve. I lubricated the sleeve with a light marine grease, and "tapped" it into place using a wrench socket. It would be advisable to use something to "cushion" the impact as the sleeve ended up with a chipped end, (although it worked fine all season), and we had no further leaks. Obviously the seals worked fine, and were not a problem to install. Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Barry
Barry : Had you read my articles you would have found that a large "C" clamp or a wide mouth vice would have pressed that graphite bearing in easily. Great info in those old Tech Notes
Ordered pump seals and spare impeller kit today from Depco (800) 445-1656. Here are the prices
water and oil seal (the same) $12 each
impeller kit (includes paper thin gasket) $34
replacement shaft $34
Great pictures Mr. Sanner. I picked up a new pump over at sea power yesterday. Most estimates to rebuild were more then half the price of a new pump, so I just bit the bullet on bought a new one. Still looking for the gasket between it and the engine block. I also picked up a new engine mount. And you're right, that engine paint is 30 bucks!! We may be looking at selling this boat soon (dang partners and Ahhnold) and I want that motor looking and running top notch! Thanks for everyone's help and I'll be posting new pictures soon.
Rick
http://public.fotki.com/Sailorick/sv_painkiller/ (http://public.fotki.com/Sailorick/sv_painkiller/)
Rick : If you don't bugger up the existing gasket between the Oberdoffer and engine it should still be reusable. In fact I never put on a new gasket in 21 years and probably had that pump off at least 15 times!!
If you go to an auto parts store and get a can of GM metallic Camel touch-up paint it's the same color and only about $5.
Good luck getting that old mount off. I'd recommend taking a saw to the threaded stud and cutting it just under the engine mount bracket. A few thoughts
There is nothing magic about gaskets. Metal to Metal joints (two hard surfaces) do not do a very good job at stopping fluids. Depending on the application you can make one from light bond paper, sheet gasket material, or even the cardboard from a legal pad. If the old one rips coming off, save as much as you can for a pattern and make a new one, try to match the gasket thickness as close as you can, remember the original got squashed, so it started out thicker.
Found oil leak on transmission.Bottom plug was leaking,removed plug installed new gasket from NAPA,end off leak.Thanks to all
Al
Lucky hull#13
Quote from: Ron Hill on November 17, 2009, 02:40:15 PMLook in the Mainsheet tech notes and you'll find an article I wrote on rebuilding your Oberdorfer yourself.
That would be May 2002.
That time of year again to check all your engine stuff.
Maine Sail has a good HOW TO article on redoing water pumps: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/raw_water_pump (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/raw_water_pump)