New batteries are on the spring project list. As well as a battery wiring update. I've got everybodies notes, still planning and referencing. One think I have decided is to move the starting battery to the aft cabin with it's own switch. It is probably going into the void under the settee. I know more power is better, but I think I might be space limited. What is the minimum CCA needed to reliably get the engine started?
CCAs for our small engines aren't really a limiting factor. Jim Moe's Electrical in Projects discusses it. We've been using a small 60ah start battery for years.
Ken,
Do you have an alternator with two output taps for the two battery banks, or do you use the battery selector switch as the isolator?
Steve
Ken, I went with an Optima AGM starting battery (red top). Fantastic product. Often available at a decent price at Sam's Club. No maintenance, which is important in the aft berth. My house bank is a wet cell bank, so I use a DuoCharge to charge the AGM from the house bank (the DuoCharge allows you to set the chemistry of the receiving battery). I love the set up. Also, moving the starting battery that close to the actual starter makes a huge difference (in addition to short-wiring the glow plugs).
PS: Ken, I know you know this, but for the benefit of everyone else, there are also terrific articles written on this subject which you can find in the electrical section of c34.org/wiki. Check out the articles by by Jim Moe, Mark Elkin, and John Gardner; all have great advice on setting up a starting battery.
Ken : You can get a small Gp 24 starting battery - it might be 650 CCA. West Marine usually has a spring starting battery sale. Also if you have a Cabela's or Gander Mt. close to you, look at their batteries.
Steve, most alternators have only one output and it should run to the house bank. Use a separate switch, a combiner or echo charger or duo-charge to charge the reserve emergency (formerly known as the "start") bank. Don't use the 1-2-B switch for alternator output.
See: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4623.0.html for starters, then do a search on 1-2-B switch to read more.
Ken,
I used an Optima 34M-1050 (Blue top) in the aft cabin. Group 34 batteries are shorter (7.81") and fit fine under the aft birth near the shaft. Because they're sealed they can be "mounted in any orientation" per the literature so leveling isn't as important. I used the Blue Sea m-Series Mini Dual Circuit Plus (#6011) under the head sink and an Echo-charge to charge it.
Kyle Ewing
Donnybrook #1010
I have a combiner for the charging side, PO installed, not sure of the make. Part of the reason I asked the question was my current starting battery has 650 CCA and sometimes barely cranks the engine. If that is enough, then it is either a tired battery, bad wires/connections or a combination. thanks for the inputs.
Ken - You're correct, it's probably both. If you've never addressed the connections, they definitely need re-termination. Your boat is a bit older than mine. My lugs were minimally crimped on non-tinned wire. Check or redo both the postive and ground paths at every connection.
How old is the battery? I only expect seven years for my car batteries. Be careful mixing battery types with your combiner, unless you set your charger/regulator to the battery type with the lower charging thresholds.
Craig
Ken, the great thing about the Optima is something that Stu discovered for me last year when he was helping me with my re-wiring project. He discovered that the Optima AGM (as opposed to other AGMs) actually takes the same charge voltage as a standard flooded cell (14.6V), so, with the Optima, you don't have to worry about whether or not you're mixing chemistries, but you get all of the advantages of a no-maintenance, high-power AGM.
We "discovered" this by reading the regulator manual (gosh, did a guy say that?).
Ken, also with your combiner, check your manual and you should be able to put a shut off (toggle) switch in the ground wire to shut the combiner off so that you don't overcharge your brand new reserve emergency battery.
Ken,
I concur with the Optima recommendation for all the reasons noted. No issues with deep cycle (blue top), dual-use (yellow top) or starting (red top). Our engines don't demand too much from a battery mounted near the starter. If you're having issues with your ability to start, could also be the starter itself. Relatively straight forward to remove and rebuild, if required. 'Course, it's always important to fix the easiest thing first! Stick to your battery/wiring troubleshooting plan. We mounted our battery (Optima Deep Cycle) under the aft berth. We chose this flavor because it was available, i.e., it was part of the house bank when we bought the boat six years ago. I glassed a platform into the hull adjacent to the shaft log and used Igloo cooler mountings to brace the four corners (they match the radius on the Optima) and a battery strap around the platform. The wiring run to the alternator and starter is only about 24". The Optima's tolerate "standard" voltage as Jon noted--makes this straight forward if you have a lead acid house bank and an alternator with a built-in regulator. Any "out of sight, out of mind" mounting location merits a maintenance-free battery. We changed ours last summer simply because we didn't know how old it was or how badly it was abused before we bought the boat...
Cheers,
Mike
As I mentioned about sales : West Marine has a sale till 1 March of a Gp 24 MCA 725, AGM battery for $149. A thought.
And as Jim Moe's electrical system article, among others, mentions, you could spend half of that at Sears for a simple automotive battery. Stay away form marine stores for ALL batteries.
If you're still having starting issues, start with the usual suspects: wiring connections and the grounds. Check the + connection at the battery switch, per John Nixon's suggestions. Basics...
Quote from: Stu Jackson on February 15, 2009, 08:20:48 PM
And as Jim Moe's electrical system article, among others, mentions, you could spend half of that at Sears for a simple automotive battery. Stay away form marine stores for ALL batteries.
But my reco for an Optima was based on its maintenance-free benefit, since the battery was going to be placed under the aft berth. The equivalent AGM from Sears is $189.99. I'm not sure if the WM battery is quite as good from CCA perspective, so I still think an Optima starting battery from a low-cost distributor such as Sam's Club (where I got mine for about $140) is the way to go. Unbelievable cranking power and zero maintenance. Plug n play compatibility with a flooded-cell bank for charging. Can't beat it.
There's gotta be places to buy Optima batteries other than (overpriced) marine store.
I installed the DEKA Intimitator Group 34 AGM battery in the same place as you are planning to do. This battery fits perfectly, has a high 785 CCA, is sealed and can be mounted on a angle if so desired. The cost was less than the Optima price at Sams Club.
Just curious where your starting batteries were before you all moved them to under the stern berth? My starting battery is in the port lazerette on the far forward side. Is this another PO change or were they put there only in '87?
Just wondering....
Susan, most folks added a small shelf in front of the starboard water tank. My PO put a shelf for two batteries under the forward seat of the U shaped dinette, so we have two batteries in the normal box and two up forward on that shelf -- 3 house batteries in one bank and the emergency reserve backup (not "start") battery . Others have put their emergency reserve backup battery under the aft cabin berth, thinking that a shorter run to the starter is better. My belief is that it doesn't matter if you size the wiring properly, but the difference is the cost of the wiring.
All extra battery "shelves" are owner installed, the factory does not do that, including yours, which is the very first I've heard of in that location - not a bad idea.
In fact, Catalina has not, until recently and only on their bigger boats as I understand it, bothered with separate emergency reserve banks at all, just putting two loathsome heavy 4Ds in and leaving owners to figure out how to make it right.
Stu,
I know this may be going over old ground but given your characterization of your "start" battery as "emergency reserve", how do you use your battery selector switch?
I have the same battery configuration, that is, 3 house batteries in one bank (#2 on selector) and 1 Davidson 4D battery as a "start" or "reserve"(#1 on selector).
I tend to select "ALL" when starting the engine and run the engine on "ALL" which charges all batteries.
At anchor I turn the Selector to #2 when the engine is off. That way I figure I have the Davidson on #1 as a "start" or "emergency reserve".
It all seems to work but..................
Hawk
Hawk, please read replies #8 and #18 here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4623.15.html The two replies are on separate pages of the linked thread.
You would also do well to do a search on "1-2-B switch" for stuff with my name on it for much more information, but the two replies above summarizes it pretty well. Read the rest of the link, too. Check out the wiring diagram at the end, too. Also read the link in Reply #23 with the wiring diagram. That link includes additional discussion that I contributed at the www.catalinaowners.com website (see my Reply #21 there: http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=580988).
You most likely have the OEM "standard" of the alternator output going to the switch.
If you'd like more info, please let me know.
John, I am a new member of the Association...was intrigued by your statement that the Optima deep cycle can be charged at the flooded battery settings...all my house and start are Optima's. I am using Xantex..40 and 20 chargers...should I change my AGM settings to the flooded switch? I have used the Optima's exclusively for years and have wonderful service from them and when they fail Sam's replaces them usually at no charge...my oldest battery is my strart and it is a 2004...Thanks Bob Fleege
Bob,
Welcome again to the Association and here on the 'board.
The Xantrex True Charge manual is pretty poor on showing the charging voltages at various stages. I just read it and it doesn't have what you're looking for. As Jon noted, we learned this from reading the Balmar Max Charge manual, which has a table of charging regimens for each type of battery. Go to the Balmar website (www.balmar.net) and download and read the manual for the MC 612, which has that table on page 9 of 16 and you can compare the recommended voltages at bulk, absorption and float. They're identical except for a small difference at float, which I suggest is immaterial.
One question, why do you have two chargers? I''m intrigued.
Thanks Stu.
I was afraid you'd say to reread all the earlier posts..............
Bob, here's the chart Stu found for me last year.
| | Deep | | | | | Halogen |
| | Cycle | | | | Standard | Voltage |
| Universal | Flooded | Gel Cell | AGM | Optima | Flooded | Sensitive |
| Start Delay (Seconds) | 45 | 45 | 45 | 45 | 45 | 45 | 45 |
| Ramp Up (Seconds) | 60 | 60 | 60 | 60 | 60 | 60 | 60 |
| Bulk Voltage (Max) | 14.10 | 14.60 | 14.10 | 14.38 | 14.60 | 14.40 | 14.00 |
| Bulk Time (Minimum) | 36 min. | 36 min. | 36 min. | 36 min. | 36 min. | 36 min. | 36 min. |
| Absorption Voltage | 13.90 | 14.40 | 13.90 | 14.18 | 14.40 | 14.20 | 13.80 |
| Absorption Time (Min) | 36 min. | 36 min. | 36 min. | 36 min. | 36 min. | 36 min. | 36 min. |
| Float Voltage | 13.42 | 13.35 | 13.70 | 13.38 | 13.40 | 13.40 | 13.50 |
| Float Time (Maximum) | 6 hr. | 6 hr. | 6 hr. | 6 hr. | 6 hr. | 6 hr. | 6 hr. |
| High Voltage Alarm | 15.20 | 15.60 | 15.10 | 15.38 | 15.60 | 15.40 | 15.00 |
Welcome to the C34IA! Thanks for your support; it really helps.
There's gotta be places to buy Optima batteries other than (overpriced) marine store.
Stu
I picked up a Optima battery at COSTCO.....they had the RED,YELLOW and BLUE. :clap
paulj
Guys...based upon Stu's chart, I'm not seeing a benefit to optima vs. flooded deep cycle...other than the ability to mount them in "adverse locations"...am I missing something?
The maintenance free, place in any position benefits are generic to AGM batteries. Optima just happens to have at least one extra benefit, which is that it acts like flooded-cell chemistry when it comes to charging requirements. It's the best of both worlds. I have to say that Optima is a little cagey about specs, but it sure feels like the most powerful compact battery I've ever used.
You're right Michael. Jim Moe's battery selection article discusses, as many have before and since, the differences in batteries and applications, it's here: http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-battery-selection.html
Stu's right about how great Jim's article is, but here's a much better location: http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Electrical#Alternators_and_Battery_Chargers, which points you to the "Electrical" section of the Knowledge-wiki. You'll see his article listed in the "Battery" area, plus you'll be able to add your own comments and browse like articles.
My mistake. I went to the wiki first and looked under electrical, not batteries. Then I simply went to my fallback "I know where it was" in Projects. I should have known better.