Has anyone tried NER VPC line as a halyard? I'm frustrated by the scallops along the luff of my main with the current Staset halyard, but the NER line selection guide seems to jump from sta-set X to T-900 for main and jib halyards. I could go with Sta-set X or T-900, but the specs on VPC are better than Sta-set X and the cost differential is negligible. VPC's costs appears significantly less than T-900. I'm contacting NER, but does anyone have real world experience?
Thanks
Mert : I replaces my OEM halyards years ago with Sta-set-X and am VERY pleased. :clap
Ron,
What is the life expectancy of your Sta-set-X or any other quality line? My OEM halyards on a 2004 C-36 are past usefulness and safety. Quality has to last longer than that. How do you know?
Mark
VPC has less stretch than Sta-Set-X ... which has
about 50% more stretch for a typical halyard
application.
What's also important is the amount of "creep" (the
amount the line will elongate under a constant load).
I haven't seen numbers on either but since the VPC
has some vectran in it's core I would think it would
do better... and for $0.89 a foot for the 10mm
(a bit over 3/8") (--> http://defender.com/ )
it seems like a good option for someone looking
for a bit more performance. It's also very flexible.
Also I think it's easier to splice than Sta-Set X
parallel core tech but I've never spliced Sta-Set X.
I just ordered a 140' of VPC that I'm hoping to use
for a spinnaker... probably the sheets. One more
piece in my setup though I still need a kite!
Mert : I replaced those haylards over 12 years ago. I did up the size to 7/16" from 3/8". If there is any stretch I can't tell it. :D
Thanks Ron,
When you upped the size to 7/16". I assume there was no issues and it was just a straight swap. Is there any thing different on the Mark II versions of our boats that would be cause for concern? I assume pulley size, load angles through blocks and Jam Cleats will all be fine.
Any experience/comments, any one?
Mark
Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm inclined to go with the VPC, especially given the pricing, but I'll likely wait a few days to see if I get a response to my e-mail inquiry. I'll let you know what I hear from NER.
On the halyard "upsize" front, when I got my boat the PO had installed 1/2" sta-set for the jib halyard - very bad idea. I went back down to 7/16 sta-set X on that halyard. It's much better, but there is still some tension in the system. Based on all the recommendations on this board, I'm swapping out the sheaves this winter for the Garhauer ball bearing versions. Given the usual great advice from everyone here, I'm expecting perfection! Actually, I will be quite happy with a smooth running, very low creep system.
Mert
Quote from: Mert Gollaher on January 24, 2009, 01:18:52 PM
On the halyard "upsize" front, when I got my boat the PO had installed 1/2" sta-set for the jib halyard - very bad idea.
Mert, why was the up-size to 1/2" a bad idea? Do you think it caused friction in the sheave or other blocks because it was too large? I replaced my masthead sheaves last winter (Garhauer, of course... fantastic improvement by going to ball-bearing sheaves), and I would say they could easily take 1/2" as could all my other blocks (though, frankly, I'm not sure about the exit blocks... need to examine them).
One of the first thing I did I got my c34 was downsize my main halyard from
7/16 to 3/8 and found it ran smoother (though my old, sta-set I think, was old/worn).
Only problem I've had since was my with updated Garhauer rope clutches and
their very sharp teeth that still let the halyard slip and ate up the cover. I guess
I needed to double up the cover in that area. I've since filed down the teeth
and end-for-ended the main halyard and had better luck.
I ordered a new ball bearing masthead sheave but never installed
it as it requires disconnecting the cap shrouds... which likely
means pulling the stick.... maybe one day.
I've also skip the deck organizer (with for some reason is mounted
so the lines have a 90 turn) and run the main halyard from the
mast collar block directly the fairlead under the traveler.
I still usually jump the main from the mast (more or less the
entire way by hand) but if I want to I can get it nearly all
the way up by had from the cockpit.
7/16 is easy to pull... but 3/8 coils up smaller in the cockpit.
At some level it's personal preference.... but having low
stretch & creep definitely seems worth it.
Also curious to hear others experience with VPC
Jon, I do think the 1/2 was too big and created excess friction - pretty much everywhere. Even jumping the halyard at the mast was a pain. I swapped the 1/2 out for the 7/16, and it ran smoother. It may be that the 1/2 would have run OK on the ball bearing sheaves, but I switched to the 7/16 before the sheave upgrade so I'll never know. I'm doing the ball bearing sheaves this winter as I have the mast unstepped. Sheaves in hand; waiting for the cold spell to break.
I agree with Dave that the 90 degree angles created by the deck organizers on the older boats are a definite design flaw. I guess if the new sheaves don't get the job done, I'll be skipping the organizers by June.
Question for David Sanner: I too have the Garhauer rope clutches, and they sure are line eaters! Can you give some detail of how and how much you filed down the teeth? And do the clutches hold the same after filing down (I find that I have some creep, even with my lines becoming frayed). Thanks for your advice.
Has any one asked Catalina Yachts there opinion and reasoning on the size of the OEM running rigging. Is it just a cost measure that they have 3/8" line? Or is there something else? My problem with the line had to do with the center core breaking through the outer core. It was only 3 years old when the issue came to light. It appears the quality of the line was so poor that the outer core weave was so loose that it allowed the center core to break through in multiple places. I could live with the 3/8". As I think it is only for the ease of handling that makes the 7/16" a better choice. I could do with out the extra line thickness in the cockpit.
Comments please.
Mert, sorry if this thread has been hijacked. Have you received a reply re the your email inquiry on the VPC? What was the just of your email question?
Regards,
Mark
Hijack away; no problem here. IMHO, one of the best things about this message board is the way questions on some topics flow to related topics as those who have been through it before relate their experiences.
It seems no one who has visited this board in the last few days has used VPC yet. Dave Sanner is going to use it for spin sheets, and (absent a negative response from NER) I'm going to try it as my main halyard - can't resist the better specs and the $0.89 a foot pricing.
Best,
Mert
Has anybody seen and / or handled a piece of VPC - how does is handle a rope clutches, winches etc? It appears to me that the prices (about 1/3 the price of Samson Warpspeed) is saying something but the question is what? I do not think it is that NER has had a major break through in their technology.
Ray
Mert : At those kind of price differences I'd be a bit cautious.
Except for Sta -Set-X, I've stayed away from New England ropes as they do not hold their colors for more than a couple of months. I've almost completely switched to Sampson from Defender. Also the price is also much better than West Marine.
I've used Yale's Vizzion 3/8" on for my main halyard for the past season and a half. I believe it is similar to VPC and am happy with it. The 3/8" has had no problems with the stock clutches on my 1990. It's a softer line than sta-set or sta-set X so is easier to coil and otherwise handle. It is very low stretch and I noticied an immediate affect on my mainsail shape compared to my previous 10+ year old halyards.
The Vizzion is rated for 4000 lbs which is more than enough for our boats and has similar stretch characteristics to high tech lines. The T-900 is way overkill which is why I went with somethign like Vizzion.
To limit wear on the harlyards I make sure the clutches are open when raising then close only when I need them.
All this talk on line size has me wondering. I replaced my main sheet with 1/2 '' as well as the genoa sheets. I haven't noticed any problems but what are others using for the main sheet? The self-tailing winches all work well with 1/2" line. I realize some might think the sheets will be too heavy.
Were the original lines all 3/8"? That seems odd to me.
Hawk
Hawk - I believe the stock sheet size is 7/16". I replaced my genoa sheets with 1/2" Yacht Braid. Yes, it's a bit heavy for optimal light air sailing, but it's easy on the hands, doesn't hockle at the turning blocks, and seems to work better in the self-tailer.
Craig
Craig,
Thats what I found with the 1/2' genoa sheets too...works well. But what about 1/2" on the main sheet...mine seems to work fine but perhaps the boom doesn't just fan out as easily when changing course to broad reaching in light wind. Of couse a little manual persuasion works.
Tom
Tom - I have 7/16" on my Main Sheet. If the 1/2" runs well enough through your blocks, why change it?
Craig
Right Craig. I'll keep a little closer eye on it to be sure the line is running free.
A little follow-up info on VPC...
I heard back from New England Ropes; while the NER line selection guide doesn't include VPC as a halyard option for boats our size, NER is positioning VPC as a step up from Sta-set X in halyard applications for those not willing to spring for the price and performance level of T-900. Defender recently added VPC to their online catalog - it appears to be the only NER line they carry - who knows what that means. I stumbled on a great deal on 10mm VPC, so I bought a halyard. The cover has the same feel to the touch as Sta-set (I think it's the same cover), but the core is significantly stiffer. Flexibility seems comparable to sta-set X. Given the specs I'm hopeful that it will be a good price performer, but I'll see what happens in real life on the boat when launch day arrives.
Thanks for the help everyone.
Wayne, it's hard to say how much I filed down my rope clutch teeth.
Slightly rounded off, similar to other rope clutches (including my
old Garhauer). It's kind of a catch 22, if you take off too much the
line with slip and possibly be eaten up, if they are too sharp
the line can be damaged.
I'll try to post an update of my experience with VPC. Being that
I don't have advanced testing gear I'll have to go with the
numbers they are reporting for breaking strength and stretch
but we'll see how it handles and try to get a ball park idea
of the stretchyness.
VPC is a 1/3 of the cost of Warpspeed because it probably
has something like that or less of the good stuff in the core.
Samson also makes a bargain blended rope.
Last year I picked up NER Endura Braid for my jib sheets,
also 10mm. So far so good, very good. The line is flexible and
holds well in the winches. (In fact I resized/ground-down the
self-tailer opening on my old lewmar winches so they
stay in and grip well) The Endura Braid has 100%
Dyneema SK-75 in the core so it's more of cousin
to Warpspeed. I'm not sure how the line will hold
it's color or weathers in general.
From what I understand Dyneema has more creep
than Vectran so Vectran can be better for halyards though I
think it's usually blended a bit to keep it from wearing
and handling better. For example T900 is a solid
choice for halyards with lots of Vectran blended with
Technora in the core. VPC is a Vectran blend so one
would think it would work well as a halyard but from
the numbers it looks like it has significantly less than
T900 as well as it's blended with a much cheaper olefin
fiber. NER also makes V-100 which looks to be
tailored for static loads like halyards with what
looks to be a pure Vectran core.
VPC ... Mid-Market... right line for the right job, we'll see.
FWIW, I think Sta-set X is complete cr@p! Stretches way too much and has a terrible "hand-feel," and is not all that winch-friendly. My Sta-set X main halyard is three years old, and I noticed these problems from the get-go. The hand-feel and winchability (new word!), as you can imagine have improved a bit with wear, but are still not great. I will probably replace it this year with something -anything- else. I like the idea of the VPC as long as the cover is like Sta-set and not Sta-set X (used to be very different covers; maybe not anymore). This topic is coming up on a Pearson list as well, and there's a recommendation for Samson's Warpspeed product, which the author claims has much better hand-feel and much lower stretch than Sta-set X. I wish there was a supplier that would send you samples of the line. Anybody know of one?
There are only a few makers (suppliers) of line. Since WM carries New England rope, so many people use it. My local chandlery here, Svendsen's, carries Sampson. I made the horrible mistake of using StaSet for a halyard replacement 5 years ago, don't please ask me why - brain was NOT engaged. My mainsail luff scallops are lengendary! Even using our cunningham! I will eventually replace the halyards with a handle-able and winchable (love that new word!) Sampson line since I can go into the store, check the stretch characteristics with their documentation, and touch and feel the line. My recommendations are to try to find another chandlery and try 'em out, OR to get recommendations from this board. We used 3/8" which works well using either the winch or going up to the mast and handing from the cockpit with crew. Since ya only do it once a day, oversizing the main halyard for "feel" makes no sense to me. "Feel is necessary for jib sheets, and we've already had the long discussion about correctly sizing jib sheets to fit self tailing winches.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on January 30, 2009, 11:53:36 AM
Since ya only do it once a day, oversizing the main halyard for "feel" makes no sense to me. "Feel is necessary for jib sheets, and we've already had the long discussion about correctly sizing jib sheets to fit self tailing winches.
That's a fair point Stu, but, for me, it's possible that it's more than once a day, although sometimes it's only an adjustment (tensioning) after a major change in wind velocity or if I drop a lunch hook. I just figure that if I can meet all three criteria of winchability, hand-feel, and low-stretch, that's the way I want to go. I wouldn't, however, give up low-stretch for hand, so it's also a question of priorities.
This thread is getting interesting. I was considering Samson XLS Extra-T replacing my StaSet-X for my main halyard. Anyone have any experience to contrast it with what's already been discussed (and cussed)?
Craig
Maine Sail has reported, over on co.com, that Yale is releasing a new Yale Yacht Braid that is supposed to equal StaSetX with much better hand. Should be on the racks in April.
See: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=104922
Matching the stretch characteristics of Sta-set X is no great shakes. Okay for jib sheets maybe, except for the lousy hand and lack of winchability, but a disaster for a halyard on anything other than a Sunfish.
A good web site to get an understanding of the wide range of line that is available, their suggested usage, and their relative costs is: http://www.apsltd.com/ This is not your low cost provider but does has a wide range.
You can find the Samson usage guide here:
http://mauriprosailing.com/Samson-ropes/samson-ropes-selection-guide.htm
Now having a nice new North Sail main it looks like the old halyard is not up to the task. Therefore I'm following this thread closely. Being a bit surprised by the varied opionions on sizing (never mind brand) I looked at the APS site recomended above.
Interestingly, the site describes Crystalyne-Vale sizing as 10mm = 7/16.
The New England V-100 line is shown as 10mm = 3/8.
Up here we switched to metric a few decades ago, so last time I checked 1/16 equaled 1.5mm..............Hmmmmmm
I must be missing something...........
Tom
Personally I really dislike Sta-Set X. I find it stiff, does not like winches, has low "winchability", :D pills horribly and is still quite stretchy. I have had it on two boats and will never use it again. New England Ropes VPC is a good budget choice alternative.
Contrary to popular belief (gotta love marketing) StaSet X is also still fairly stretchy compared to other halyard line. It stretches 2.4% or 14.4 inches in 50 feet. My halyards are 120 long. 30+ inches of stretch is a lot of scaloping..
I do like regular StaSet for sheets but if you are racing in light air the Sta-Set can get awfully heavy and weigh down the sail..
Unfortunately most US sailors use NER mostly because there was a family connection / relation between the owner of New England Ropes and West Marine. It's unfortunate that many sailors have only had access to NER when there are plenty of other less costly options. Unfortunately this relationship between WM & NER has forced companies like Yale Cordage to pursue other markets and put very little effort into the marine market a;though this is changing soon. It's too bad because Yale makes some great stuff as does Nova Braid out of Canada and Samson.. NER has been sold so it will be interesting to see how long this "relationship" with WM lasts!!
Other alternatives to StaSet X:
StaSet X (parallel polyester core) = 2.4% stretch and is about $86.00 per 100ft for 3/8" (Best source Hall Spars).
Nova Braid XLE (braided polyester core) = 2.25% stretch and is about $70.00 per 100ft for 3/8". (Best sources is Rope Warehouse or Cajun Trading Co.)
Samson XLS (braided polyester core) = 2% stretch and about $86.00 per 100ft for 3/8". (best source usually Defender)
NER VPC (braided Vectran/Olefin core) = 1.65% stretch and about $89.00 per 100ft for 10mm (roughly 3/8"). (best source Defender)
Samson XLS Extra (braided Dynema/Polyolefin core) = .7% stretch and about $133.00 per 100ft for 3/8" (best sources Hall Spars, Defender or Annapolis Performance Sailing)
Yale Vizzion (braided Vectran core) = .8% stretch and about $184.00 per 100ft for 3/8" (best source Hamilton Marine)
Sta-Set X - Parallel Polyester Core (why it sucks):
(http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/108773673.jpg)
Yale Vizzion - Braided Vectran Core:
(http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/108773674.jpg)
New England Ropes VPC - Braided Vectran/Olefin Core:
(http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/108773675.jpg)
New Yale Yacht Braid - Less stretch than Sta-Set X same price as regular Sta-Set better jacket
(http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/108693280.jpg)
Please keep in mind that most cruising sail luffs are not low stretch. You can do serious damage with these ultra low stretch high tech lines if not careful. Adding that extra crank, like you do with Sta-Set X, can do severe damage to the sail so be careful if you upgrade to ultra low stretch lines...
Mainsail - Thank you! I think that's just the sort of information most of us were interested in. I greatly appreciate your contributions.
Craig
Maine Sail,
Thanks for listing the possible alternatives, I currently have SaSet X for my halyards and probable will
change them out when they reach their end of life or I end it for them.
I normall have only have about 60 feet of my halard under tension when the sail is set, regardless
14-16" of stretch may be more then I would like.
Thanks,
Steve
OK, leaving price aside, what's the preferred choice between the NER T900 and the Sampson XLS Extra?
Both are the low stretch I believe.
Quote from: Hawk on February 01, 2009, 08:39:58 PM
OK, leaving price aside, what's the preferred choice between the NER T900 and the Sampson XLS Extra?
Both are the low stretch I believe.
Other than a LOT of money the only difference that really matters is .1% stretch.
NER - T-900 = Dynema/Technora = stretch 0.6% or 3.6" in 50 - Price = 100 feet of 3/8" roughly $239.00
Samson - XLS Extra = Dynema/Polyolefin = stretch 0.7% or 4.2" in 50 feet - Price = 100 feet of 3/8" roughly $150.00
Thanks Maine. The Sampson XLS Extra is available to me wholesale.
It's never been that obvious to me how much stretch I will actually see in a line
for a given application. Manufacturers typically give a percentage stretch
for a percentage of a given lines breaking strength, such as 10%, 20%.
This makes it difficult to directly compare as you need to do the math.
For example VPC 10mm line which they call 3/8" (3/8 is closer to 9.5mm)
has a breaking strength of 7500 lbs. Samon's XLS Extra 3/8" line breaks
at 4600lbs ... so you can't just compare directly how % stretch at 20%
of breaking strength.... one thing this does say to me however is that
the VPC is a lot stronger than XLS Extra which probably means they have
more of the good stuff blended into the core.
Now to the application. 60' of halyard stretch vs. 10' of jib sheet...
and what are typical loads (lbs & time)? And the number I've yet
to see quantified is how much will they 'creep' ... for a halyard application
that will be loaded up for hours I'll take a little extra initial stretch as
long as it doesn't creep so much that I have to retention it every hour.
I would think VPC would have less creep than the Samson blend since it's
Vectran instead of Dyneema as well as quite a bit stronger. Perhaps the
Samson blend handles better?
Here's a list (w/ images) of available lines: http://moonblink.info/ropes.cgi
And a description of different hi-tech fibers: http://moonblink.info/fibres.html
Also, NER has this nice graphic that compares their 8mm lines in a typical halyard situation:
(link which is a bit easier to read: http://www.neropes.com/Images/line_stretch_lg.gif )
Very helpful information.
On an older thread regarding the traveler upgrade Stu talked about the control lines and recomended to go down to 5/16 size. I picked up the Garhauer upgrade kit in Seattle on the weekend and wonder what type of line I ought to use. I'm thinking the low stretch Sampson XLS Extra. Any thoughts?
I know its only a traveler line but may as well put the best line on for the job.....
Hawk
Hawk, the traveler line is NOT worth any low stretch line. StaSet (regular) is just fine. Think about it: the position is important but it keeps moving anyway during a sail. Put the $$ to better use. Glad you read about the 5/16, you'll be much happier with it.
My thinking is that you want stretch as it will minimize the
shock load during a jibe. (and since the normal load on line is
so low stretch is not really a factor anyway)
Just get the line that runs the smoothest and is the
easiest to pull on when the wind is blowing.
When I did my upgrade a few years back I ordered
my upgraded traveler with 3/8" line... good price.
It's decent, standard polyester line.
What happens with the 3/8 line is that over time it expands in diameter and binds on the sheaves on the traveler. That's why we use 5/16.
Thanks fellas.
Stu, you also mentioned in an old thread that your traveler control lines were 27' long per side because of the extra blocks. I take it they would be even longer if I wish to mount a swivel cam on the aft coach house and take the lines back to the wheel so I can adjust the traveler from the wheel. I can't recall if yours run all the way back.
Does anyone know the ideal lengths when running the control lines back to the wheel.
Thanks,
Hawk
Yes, you're right, mine only go back to the aft end of the coachroof. So, add the distance from there to where ya wanna have them hang. But don't depend on MY measurements. Do the math. And on YOUR boat. I figured the 27 feet based on where the cars were when furthest set, measured the distance and the number of times the line went back and forth through the sheaves, and added the distance back. C'mon...
Stu,
Oh I'll measure them myself for sure...likely "thrice". If its anywhere near 27' plus my additional length then I might have half a chance at getting it right.
Isn't it: "measure twice - cut once"
Thanks, Hawk
And all this time I thought it was: "Cut once, splice thrice!"
Quote from: Stu Jackson on February 05, 2009, 08:51:11 AM
And all this time I thought it was: "Cut once, splice thrice!"
You're confusing sailing with heart surgery ;)
Nah, just broken legs! :cry4`
Good Stu.
But if you: "Splice the main brace thrice, you'll be twice as cut!"