?
So if I have 4 6v = 220 amps each and a 12v system I really have 440 amps of which I can probably use only 300 before I need to recharge.
Does that mean with a 100 amp alternator it would take 3 hours to recharge? And at what RPM?
I am looking at the batteryshack alternator.
#71 no name yet. We have owned 2 months.
You're Almost There
440 amp hours in house bank.
Useful capacity is only about 35% of the 440, or 154 amp hours when on the hook. Not a problem on shorepower.
This is because:
1. don't discharge more than 50% (although you could, a bit more)
2. the last 15% takes forever to recharge from an alternator
Your energy budget will tell you how many days that will last you. That is, add up all the loads times how many hours per day you use them, which will give you needed amp hours per day. (BTW, with your 440 AH bank, you will do JUST FINE!)
A 100 amp alternator will put out 100 amps at a certain speed. Jeff's right about the output curve. Plus, if you're anchored, you won't be running the engine at max speed, only about 1500 rpm.
If motoring you'll get more out of the alternator.
So, say with inefficiencies and slow motoring or just at high idle when anchored, you get 75 amps out of the alternator.
If you've used up all 154 amp hours, it'd take you two hours to put it back.
The concept is to MINIMIZE draw on the house bank, by turning off lights, insulating (or turning off) the fridge, etc. If you run the fridge 24 hours, you'll use up 60 amp hours (5 amps average draw - or less - including run cycle times 24 hours). If you turn it off at night (since it isn't opened) and maybe use a space blanket insulator inside, you almost cut your daily amp hour use in half.
Do the Energy Budget, then go from there.
Stu
You might want to consider a Honda 2000 watt generator if you spend much time away from shore power. The generator will run your battery charger, heat your hot water in 15 minutes or less, run your fridge on 110 while it's on and any other 110 uses you may have. All this with never running your engine!!!!. The generator only ways 46 pounds and is extremly quiet and fuel efficient. Its like having an ace in the hole, because you always have a means to start your engine if you accidently drain your batteries to much. Just a thought PAUL......
Paul,
where do you store your generator?
How do you have it hooked up to run your hot water heater?
I was going to try and run my hotwater heater with the batteries. I don't think thats going to work especially with an 11 gallon hot water heater. If I did I would use all my amps. I would need additional batteries.
How do most people run there hot water heater away from shore?
With the hot water heater loop, running the engine to charge the batteries also heats up the hot water. Just need to time your battery charging to coincide with your hot water needs.
D&D,
Your hot water heater is powered by either 110v shore power, or the engine coolant. When you're off shore power and you want hot water, start your engine up. The engine coolant circulates through a heat exchanger in your hot water heater. Voila.
Steve
That takes a long time and is very loud.
Has anyone ever looked into a propane generator and installing it in the aft lazarette.
Would that be safer than gasoline?
Has anybody ever done this? Does anyone have any ideas on how to handle the exhauset?
I found a propane 3400 watt generator measuring 20x17x16.75 with an exhaust kit and remote control on off swith.
I need to go measure the lazarette space. I am thinking with the exhaust kit I can run it thru one of my clam shells. Any thoughts?
#71 no name yet.
I have had a Batteryshack alternator for about three years and have only used it to charge the batteries at anchor on one occasion. I have found that it will replenish the batteries from a state of discharge in several hours at 1200 rpm. The owner of the Batteryshack told me that it is designed to produce full power at 1000 rpm.
I don't know why anyone wants to put a generator on their boat. Introduction of a vibration with the accompaning noise is not my idea of relaxation. If you look up to the sky, you will see the largest generator you have ever seen. It is quiet, yellow and free. All you need to do is provide the means to collect the free energy. A couple of solar panels and a regulator and good-by to noisy, smelly, expensive generators.
I can't understand why anyone has any charger other than solar panels (unless you live on the dark side of the moon). A good solar panel will last longer than the boat. I have been using solar panels to charge four 6v, house bank for many years without a single failure. My batteries charge all week with the refrigeration running (also on solar) here in New England with no difficulties. The cost of a couple of solar panels and a controller is less than a good quality battery charger.
Jim Kane
Donna and Doug..... I store my generator under the dinnete to the right of the mast, empty of fuel of course. I keep the fuel in a safty can secured on deck. Solar panels have there place but can't heat your water in 10 to 15 minutes,or start your engine in an emergency. especialy if the sun is not out!!!!! As far as noise and vibration go, You must hear a HONDA 2000 watt generator to believe how quiet they are and there is no vibration felt below if I place the gen. just in front of the mast. Also I can turn on the gen. and leave the boat for several hours and come back to charged batteries. You can't leave your boat with the engine running! The gen. has several safety features that will shut it down if there is a problem. As far as solar panels go, who wants his boat to look like a space satelite with panels hanging all over it!! The propane gen. you speak of probably costs a small fortune plus the hassel of installation and where are all those prpane tanks going to go? Just Some Thoughts....PAUL
DONNA and DOUG I forgot to mention, all you have to do is run a shortened shore power cord between the generator and the shore power inlet. This will heat your water and anything else you have powered by 110 volts... PAUL
THE BEAUTY OF SAILING
is that there ar different strokes for different folks.
I'm personally looking forward to a multi-engined, multi-generating, fuel cell driven, sail powered space vehicle myself, and know, when the time comes, that the folks on this message board and the C34 community will be the best in helping everyone out with technical issues.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.
Best,
Stu
Solar panels or wind generator:
Liking the quiet of the wind, I have been considering either a solar panel(s) or a wind generator here in New England. The solar panel option seems a good idea, but where can it be mounted where it won't be stepped on? The wind generator also seems good, but where would it be mounted considering the bimini?
I would really appreciate any advice, since this topic, and brain surgery are foreign ot me.
My concern is cruising for a week or two, keeping the fridge on, and minimizing the cabin lights, moving with the engine/sail about every three days. I have the two batteries that "Snow Goose" came with new in 2001; no other backup. I run the engine on both batteries, and when done with the engine, alternate batteries each day.
Peter
Peter
I have both, a 120 watt Kyocero panel and a Air Marine wind generator.
The panel is mounted on the cross bar of the Kato davits, the Air Marine wind generator is mounted on a mounting pole kit at the port aft transom corner. I have a total enclosure bimini and there is no problem of fitting the wind generator pole and support poles.
Now if you would ask me if I would do this again, the answer would be NO. The wind generator output is neglible below 15 knots, and here in SW Florida the winds are generally light. The solar panel would be the preferred choice, however one panel only will not be enough to maintain your batteries with the refrig. on all the time. The toal cost for both was over $2000 including regulator and mounting kits etc. For about half the cost you can buy the Honda 2000 generator and never have to worry about whether you have wind or sun.
Bernd Mueller
I am sorry that you paid so much for your solar/wind generation system. Two Kyoceria solar panels and a charge regulator are only $1050 (the same cost as a Honda EU2000 generator). The major difference is that the solar panels will run for 25 years without fuel or maintenace, do not viberate (all internal combustion engines vibrate) or annoy the surrounding boats (Honda gives the decibal rating at 1/4 load and idle, but not full load).
Mounting on top of the dodger, bimini, or davits keep the panels from under foot. Mounts are commercially available to mount the panels on the life lines. They hang vertically until deployed and they are raised to a horizontal position to take full effect of the sun.
Jim Kane
p.s. look at the below for prices and information
www.solar-electric.com (http://www.solar-electric.com)
http://www.e-marine-inc.com/products/mounts/boatkits.html (http://www.e-marine-inc.com/products/mounts/boatkits.html)
Look at this site for mounting ideas and equipment. Free energy is not a bad thing.
Jim Kane
Paul
I totally agree with you reply, is there a reason why you do not mount the generator permantly in front of the mast with chokes and cover? I just bought this unit based on your experience and plan on just mounting it in front of the mast and use it when needed!
Bob
Bob.... Thanks for the reply. The reason that I don't permenently mount the generator is because I am not away from shore power enough to justify it. Also I use my generator when I go camping in my travel trailor. The generator could also be used at home to keep the refridgerator going during a power outage. Also I would not want to expose the gen. to the weather and waves crashing over the bow even if it was covered. Especialy since the gen. is so light and easy to move. Hope this helps.....PAUL
Bob... One more thing I forgot to mention. Electronics don't last very long when exposed to a wet marine environment, if you do decide to mount your gen. outside, I hope you can find a cover that is totally waterproof..... PAUL
To Paul T and Bob and anyone else who has, or is contemplating getting, a gasoline powered generator or any other piece of gasoline powered equipment for your boat: immediately purchase several carbon monoxide (CO) detectors and place them in each compartment, including the head. Test them frequently. CO is a common product of gasoline combustion (exhaust); is odorless and colorless and will kill you dead in a very short period of time. It is also heavier than air, so guess where it will go if you mount the generator on deck in front of the mast? Yep, right down any opening in your boat. Seaworthy ran an article several months ago on the dangers of CO and I'll try to find that issue for circulation. One example I remember: A delivery skipper was motoring a gas powered boat to his destination and went below to take a shower. Crew found him 20 minutes later dead of CO poisening. I'll get off my soapbox now, we would hate to lose any of you guys; the stuff is deadly.
Mike and Jan Smith
S/V Breezer
www.mikejansmith.com (http://www.mikejansmith.com)
Mike and anyone with some comments
I found a 3400 watt propane or gas portable generator. It would fit and could be mounted inside the stern lazeratte on the starboard quarter.
It has an exhaust kit, since it is designed for RV's, my idea was to run the exhaust tube from the generator thru the starboard clamshell vent. Where the generator would be mounted to the vent is only a distance of about two feet.
I would definitely intall a co2 detector.
Do you think it is safe?
Do you think the propane is safer than the gas?
Error corrections:
Carbon Monoxide. not co2
spelling= install.
#71 no name
Doug,
In following this thread, I'm trying to understand just what it is you are trying to do. And I'm still not sure.
Is what you are after hot water?
It sure seems an expensive way to get there.
You may want to consider using the boat for awhile and getting the hang of it before investing in any new systems.
In addition, this month's issue of Good Old Boat has two amusing stories of how cruisers manage to take hot showers without the expense and complication of generators, etc. If you don't subscribe to the magazine, you should be able to pick it up at a marine store near you, or at least just read the articles.
Stu
Peter
You asked some questions above about batteries. Here's a link to a previous post that may help you out.
http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=502600911&r=602600911#602600911 (http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=502600911&r=602600911#602600911)
You wrote: "My concern is cruising for a week or two, keeping the fridge on, and minimizing the cabin lights, moving with the engine/sail about every three days. I have the two batteries that "Snow Goose" came with new in 2001; no other backup. I run the engine on both batteries, and when done with the engine, alternate batteries each day."
What you really need to do is install a separate starting battery. Jon Arck did so recently on his #1346, and then go the benefit of the two big batteries as a house bank. Your very best answer to your concern is to MAXIMIZE your house bank, which will give you more time on the hook without having to recharge.
I also assume that you have done an energy budget, and know what your load is on a daily basis for your cruise?
Also, unless you've installed a newer alternator and a smart regulator, your stock alternator will not put much out. Calder's book is very helpful (Boatowner's Manual).
Jim described where he put his panels, and many others have done the same. Check out Projects.
Stu
Mike, Your point is well taken on the hazards of carbon monoxide, however please take note that CO is lighter than air. Thats why you don't mount CO detectors near the floor. If you keep your boat well ventilated you should be reasonably safe. I do think CO detectors are a good idea, just in case..... PAUL
Paul -
Correction noted, CO is lighter than air. However, the accompanying USCG link illustrates how it can accumulate on your boat and does not dissipate quickly.
http://www.uscgboating.org/co/accumulate.htm (http://www.uscgboating.org/co/accumulate.htm)
Be Safe,
Mike
Mike and Jan Smith
S/V Breezer
www.mikejansmith.com (http://www.mikejansmith.com)
Question to everyone. My C34, a 1989 model, has the original Alternator. I replaced the Battery Charger this year and re-wired everything to heavier cable. The discussion here is on replacement of the Alternator, however, if you had you choice, which would you do, replace the Alternator or add solar panels? I'm in Houston so I get all the sun I can handle.
IT'S NOT REALLY A CHOICE
Bill R wrote: "however, if you had you choice, which would you do, replace the Alternator or add solar panels? "
I just don't believe it works that way. It really all depends on how you want to use your boat, and how you actually DO use it.
If you just daysail, and use shorepower, you need neither upgrade.
If you like hot water, want to be offshore (or on the hook for extended periods), then the alternator would be be a good choice.
The solar system is quiet, and keeps you on the hook and totally non dependent on either shorepower OR engines. But it DOESN'T get you the hot water.
Sure, we could take a vote, but it wouldn't matter.
The KEY thing that many do not still understand: MAXIMIZE your house bank capaity; your batteries will live longer, and you stays away will be more enjoyable.
So, DO YOUR HOMEWORK and do an energy budget, and/or get an amp meter, so you know what's going in and out.
Stu
PS as for me, we still have the original alternator (although we have an AutoMac), and we have a small solar panel which keeps up with some stuff, so we never leave the boat plugged into shorepower when we're not aboard. 315 ah in house bank with separate start battery.
Donna & Doug,
The first thing I would check is to see if you have the old original ferro resonant battery charger (Black case). If so, get rid of it. It's one of the major power problems. Get a new solid state battery charger with a monitor panel. I changed out my charger 4 years ago and have never had a problem since.
Phill Klein
Andiamo #977
Montrose Harbor - Chicago
Thanks for your responses. Stu to answer your question.
The goal is to have hot water offshore.
The problem is its too loud and takes way to long to fire up hot water in the morning using the engine and heat exchanger.
I have a 100 amp high powered alternator and 4 trojan t105 batterey's and a starting battery and an 11 gallon hot water heater.
I am trying to decide on weather to go with a inverter alone a generator or both.
with the inverter it would use about 170 of my 220 amps and my hot water heater is a 1500 watt so I would neet at least a heart 15 but it would give me hot water quick and quiet. With the 100 amp alternator I could run the engine for a couple hours later in the morning to recharge the batteries.
Or just get a generator and run that for about a half hour in the morning and not run down the batteries although more expensive.
Any thoughts comments.
Doug
Have you considered the Good Old Boat reference I noted earlier? Not a joke. We also use a Sun Shower, which hangs up fine inside the head on hooks we have installed above the head sink. A few minutes of heating hot water on the stove goes a long way.
One idea we have used a few times is to run the engine when the inverter is running the hot water heater. A law of dimishing returns, but not too bad for fifteen minutes and some hot water without complete dependency on only the batteries, since something's going in while a lot is coming out.
Also, don't forget, in your arithmetic, what you've used the night before from the house bank.
It sure seems like a pretty expensive way to get some hot water, but your boat, your choice.
I continue to suggest some more time to get used to the boat before you make more major moves.
Good luck,
Stu
PS now you're #71. Hi!
Thanks for all the posts :)
Jim,
What size solar panels do you use? I'm looking to just keep the AB fridge and some lights running for three or four days at anchor. Have an 8D house battery plus two starting batteries.
Paul
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Kane, "Jentine", #1207:
I am sorry that you paid so much for your solar/wind generation system. Two Kyoceria solar panels and a charge regulator are only $1050 (the same cost as a Honda EU2000 generator). The major difference is that the solar panels will run for 25 years without fuel or maintenace, do not viberate (all internal combustion engines vibrate) or annoy the surrounding boats (Honda gives the decibal rating at 1/4 load and idle, but not full load).
Mounting on top of the dodger, bimini, or davits keep the panels from under foot. Mounts are commercially available to mount the panels on the life lines. They hang vertically until deployed and they are raised to a horizontal position to take full effect of the sun.
Jim Kane
p.s. look at the below for prices and information
http://www.solar-electric.com (http://www.solar-electric.com) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Anyone thinking of a small generator such as the Honda 1000 or 2000 should be clear on the amperage requirements. Some inverter/chargers will draw more amps for charging then the generator can output. If you have a Heart or West Marine 1500 or larger, you will likely have be able to program the charger output to your batteries by using the remote link. But if you cannot change the inverter/charger output, be clear on your requirements before purchasing the generator.
Ron,
Note that I said SOME inverters/chargers may require more amperage than a generator may be able to supply. That does not imply ALL. I was only suggesting that before one buys ANY generator, beware of what you require. I have the Honda 2000i and had to program my link system to decrease the inverter/charger output so that the generator would not continually require a reset. Hope that clears things up. Perhaps I was not clear on my original reply.
Donna and Doug -
If you are interested in a propane generator at a reasonable price, consider this: I just bought a Honda EU200i and am converting it to propane. Here is the link (http://www.c34ia.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2036) if you haven't already read it.
http://www.c34.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2036&sid=6d3cb5e94f5ee4c3382b2f16c50337a5
Mike