I checked voltage of both batteries upon arriving at the boat and both were fine. Switched to cranking battery and attempted to start engine M25XP -- glow plugs for 30 sec, then start -- nothing happened!! Tried again -- same results, except the second time, the low oil pressure alarm didn't even come on. Switched to house battery and engine started right away.
Disconnected the starting battery. Checked the water levels -- all ok. Checked the voltage at the terminals -- about 5 volts. The battery is at least 3 years old.
Can a battery fail without warning? I thought I'd get a hydrometer and check the individual cells of the battery to see what that indicates.
Should I do some trouble shooting on the electric system before installing a new battery? (Don't want to ruin a new batt if something's wrong.) If troubleshooting, where to start?
Ed Ryan
Ed,
Agree you should check individual cell specific gravity with a hydrometer. Bet you'll find at least one cell bad. Yes, batteries do fail as you described.
Jeff
Ed
Jeff's right. Also, what charger do you have? That could also be a cause of a problem with your batteries. A FIND on chargers on the message board will give you lots of input.
Try:
http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=srch&s=329609511&findw=chargers (http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=srch&s=329609511&findw=chargers)
Link out dated doesn't work, sorry... Stu 7/18/2010
Stu
Stu,
The charger that I have is a Ray Jefferson that was on the boat when I purchased it in 2001. (Have not heard that brand mentioned on any posts thus far.) Although its manual calls it "automatic", the PO operated it behind a timer, so that it would only come on for about 1-2 hours every day. I have a group 27 deep cycle, and a starting battery, and no major power users (i.e. no refrigeration, no major electronics, etc.) Since I have to motor about 30-45 minutes both leaving and returning from the marina, I have discontinued the use of the timer and basically don't use the charger on a regular basis. The alternator is what came on the M25XP in 1989.
Any input on whether I need to change my ways (and/or the charger) would be appreciated. Thanks to you and others for the info thus far.
Ed.
CHARGERS
Ed
Anytime someone says: "I put it on a timer," is a giveaway.
Ray Jeff's are SOOOO old and bad that I guess we just missed covering them. I thought everybody'd thrown those overboard by now.
Sometimes the local dealers put the chargers on the boats.
Just a joke that Catalina "improved" things by putting just as bad chargers on at the factory.
Best bet, for starters (no pun intended) is to read the referenced link further above in this thread.
Second is to understand how alternators work, so try a FIND on alternators. Unless you have an externally regulated alternator, it'll be just as bad for your battery charging as your Ray Jeff. Tapering chargers do nothing worthwhile to charge batteries. That's what alternators with internal regulators do, they're just like automotive alternators, not fit for a sailboat, even if you do motor 30-45 minutes.
With only 2 batteries, one house, one starter, I am sure, from even the basics of your use, that you're short one battery. I would urge you to reconsider your house bank size, and install two house batteries or one larger one. I've discussed this before, so try Catalina34 Electrical Systems as a FIND, also. A basic boat needs 200 ah in the house bank. Hard to do that in one battery.
By using one tiny battery for a house bank, you are assured of discharging it too far too often, and thus shortening its life expectancy dramatically.
This may be heresey, but: ANYONE WITH ONLY ONE 100 AH HOUSE BANK, REGARDLESS OF THEIR boat's USE (even plugged into shorepower all the time) is SERIOUSLY SHORT OF BASIC BATTERY CAPACITY FOR EVEN A TWO HOUR DAYSAIL (unless - or even if - you have no stereos, instruments, fridge or lights).
(OK, OK, just to get a rise......)
Stu
Here's quite a good link to brush up on batteries.
http://www.4unique.com/battery/battery_tutorial.htm (http://www.4unique.com/battery/battery_tutorial.htm)
John Gardner, Severn River, Chesapeake Bay.
I have a counter opinion. KISS, keep it simple. I grew up sailing a Sabre 34 with two group 27's and no fridge or pressure water we never got stranded. I used a single 27 on my previous Catalina 27. Two group 27's and an alternator seems fine without major systems and managed usage. If you start chewing up batteries in less than three years or get left flat more than once, consider upgrading to 4D's. However, they are much more expensive and bigger battery banks need charging system upgrades which then require wiring upgrades, switches, full time dock connections, etc. Avoid the complications if you can, bigger isn't always better. Monitor battery voltage during the year to make sure the alternator is fully recharging the batteries. You can even check per cell with a baster. However, three years of battery life is perfectly acceptable, and if you got five you would be lucky. Calculate the cost of upgrading all the electrical systems versus getting one less year of life from your batteries. Average group 27's are $75-$85/ea. You could replace several sets before you hit the cost of electrical system upgrades. And it is a sailboat, if you get stuck you're not completely dead in the water.
Anyway, you all have great recommendations for building an excellent heavy duty electrical system. However, consider the application first and determine if it is necessary. Maybe I'm a minimalist, but it's a relatively cheap experiment.
And to repeat what someone else already confirmed, yes batteries can fail like that.
Brian Reed
1997 C34 mkII "Ambitious"
Solomons, MD
I have a little experience here. Three yrs ago I cooked my first set of 4D's with a FlyBack 20 charger. Bought 4 golf cart batteries (Interstate) and sent my FlyBack 20 back to the factory. The overhauled Flyback has been doing good and the golf cart batteries are great. My next project is a designated starter battery.
C34 Electrical Systems
Brian wrote: "However, they [larger batteries] are much more expensive and bigger battery banks need charging system upgrades which then require wiring upgrades, switches, full time dock connections, etc. Avoid the complications if you can, bigger isn't always better."
I agree that bigger isn't always better. But bigger battery banks do not necessarily require charging system upgrades, full time dock connections or bigger wires.
As I noted in the referenced discussion, Batteries and the Fridge:
(http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=433600922&r=532609732#532609732 (http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=433600922&r=532609732#532609732)
a larger battery bank will extend your battery life without having to upgrade the charger or wires, or having to resort to full time connection. You already HAVE the switch.
That's why I said I recommend at least two house batteries. The batteries will last longer, given the same discharge between charges.
If you use 30 amp hours a day, and have a 100 amp hour house bank, you're using 30% of the capacity. With two 100 ah batteries, you're only using 15% of the bank. The charging time is exactly the same, you don't need to plug in any longer, and the wiring doesn't change. It's only one more battery, and complies with the KISS concept, without upgrading anything.
In lieu of going to 4Ds which are heavy and a bear to deal with, just another G27 in the house bank would do it.
Of course, if weight is an issue, the lighter the better. The best solution I've seen for this is four golf cart batteries in the regular position, using two for one bank and two for the other bank. I'm not a proponent of dual house banks, but for light weight and racing, it just can't be beat.
Cruisers and on-the-hook folks would be better off with a separate dedicated starting battery and as large a house bank as you can handle and/or need based on an energy budget.
With Brian's light electrical loads, a single house battery would suffice based on his enegy budget, but two batteries in the house bank would last much longer and also give some leeway to stay out longer without recharging if you wanted to or needed to.
Anyway, Ed, hope you found the cause of the problem.
Stu
I've been following this discussion with much interest since I would like to upgrade my electrical system. I've looked at the information here and also in the WM catalog section on batteries. A diagram in the WM catalog shows two battery banks connected with a battery combiner so that one alt. output charges both banks. I can't find any info regarding a battery charger. How would that be wired into the circuit? Would one use a charger with a single output or would it take a charger with two outputs each tied to one of the battery banks? Would it make a difference if the ah rating of each bank is significantly different? My house bank consists of two 12v batteries in parallel for an ah rating of approx. 200ah.
Ron,
I think most of the good chargers have multiple outputs. My Statpower has three charging outputs. You want to keep the batteries isolated when not in use so that if one fails (like in Ed's case) it won't kill the other one. Imagine what would happen if a battery reading 5 volts accross the terminals was connected in parallel with a good battery. :eek: Of course that can happen while you're using them in parallel, but at least then you're on the boat to monitor the situation. If your charger only has one output it's probably too old, will kill your batteries, and should be replaced.
Ted
Hi Ted,
Thanks for the reply but now I have more questions. A battery combiner is recommended between battery banks (house bank and starting bank) so that they are isolated during use but they will all charge from the same source. Are you suggesting the use of a battery combiner between batteries in the same bank? If two batteries are wired in parallel for a house bank are you saying that each one should have a seperate charging source (charger output)? I thought that batteries in parallel are treated as one larger capacity battery. Rephrasing my original question, if one alternater output can charge all of a boats batteries thru the use of a combiner, can't one charger output do likewise? If two seperate charger outputs are used how is the circuit effected, given that there is a combiner in it? One other thing, a charger with a single output is less expensive than one with multiple outputs.
C34 Electrical Systems
Ron
A battery cmbiner is a simple relay. It is used to connect two battery banks (house and starting) automatically whenever a charging source is present (charger, alternator, solar, etc.) It avoids having to use the 1-2-B switch to do that.
Many chargers have dual outputs. Our Heart 1500 Freedom Inverter/Charger only has one output. It was made before they modified it and built in an echo charger. An echo charger is almost like a combiner functionally. What it does is simply take about a 15A charge from the inverter charger and send it directly to the starting bank, while the rest of the charge goes to the house bank.
The advantage of the combiner is that it can use single point outputs to charge both banks, like your alternator and a solar panel.
Your choices:
1. A good three stage charger with multiple (2 outputs) - one goes to the house bank, the other to the starting battery. When you're on shorepower both banks gets charged. Your alternator should be run to the battery switch so you can at least switch alternator output to the start battery when you chose to. Remember, start batteries rarely need a lot of charge because they only take 2 amp hours to start your batteries. If you're at marinas and plugged in a lot, you really don't need to bother with wiring the alternator output to the switch, just to the house bank, unless you plan to go out on the hook, in which case you wouldn't hav a way to charge the start battery. No combiner needed. NOTE: 7/18/2010: Better yet, get the charging sources OFF your 1-2-B switch and to the house bank directly. Do a search on "wiring diagrams" and find the "Best or Simple Wiring Diagram" thread.
OK, here it is: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.0.html
The "infopop" links do not work anymore --- that was our way old software for this Message Board. Thanks for understanding.
2. Combiner layout: if you have a single output charger, OR a single output inverter charger, a combiner is useful so you don't have to use the switch to switch between charging sources. This is what we have. A downside is that there is the possibility of overcharging the starting battery because the combiner parallels the charge to both banks and the start baterry usually is always full. ALWAYS wire the charge to the house bank, NOT the start bank, so the combiner only sends a smaller amount of power to the start battery.
3. Echo charge: same deal as the combiner. With a single output charger, you get a standalone echo charge unit and it draws a limited amount of charge to the start bank. If you get a newer inverter charger it will have an echo charger built in.
This was previously discussed in great detail in the following message board reference:
http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=654602911&r=574602911#574602911 (http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=654602911&r=574602911#574602911)
I also suggest you do a series of FINDs using electrical, cobminer, echo charge, etc.: be creative - there are lots of discussions that relate to your question.
Also:
Are you suggesting the use of a battery combiner between batteries in the same bank?
NO, you don't need to do that.
If two batteries are wired in parallel for a house bank are you saying that each one should have a seperate charging source (charger output)? I thought that batteries in parallel are treated as one larger capacity battery.
YES you're right. Once in a bank, it's one battery.
Rephrasing my original question, if one alternater output can charge all of a boats batteries thru the use of a combiner, can't one charger output do likewise?
YES, it can.
If two seperate charger outputs are used how is the circuit effected, given that there is a combiner in it?
If that's the case you do not need a combiner for shorepower charging. The difficulty you face is what to do with the single alternator output. But you could just use one output and a combiner, and wire all your single output charging sources to the hosue bank with a combiner to the start battery.
Have I mentioned Calder's book yet?
Stu
As Ted pointed out, most good chargers have multiple outputs and yes they cost more. But their cost is because they are good, not because they have multiple outputs. Good chargers are "smart" in that they are computer controlled. This allows the charger to charge batteries in a way the produces the greatest AH while minimizing the untoward side effects that reduce battery life. These chargers factor things like temperature, depth of discharge and battery capacity when determining the voltage and amperage to be applied to the battery at each stage of the charging process. The reason good chargers have multi bank capability is that banks are seldom discharged to the same depth and often have different capacities.
A battery combiner/isolator usually sits between the alternator/regulator and the battery banks. A multiple output charger sits on the battery side of the combiner/isolator circuit so it has minimal effect on the rest of the charging system.
Many do not motor nearly long enough to fully charge the their battery banks so most of the work is done at dock side by the AC charger. For these folks a good charger is well worth the extra expense. Also, if a "smart" charger is left on all the time, it will maintain the batteries without causing damage and extend battery life by keeping the banks fully charged.
td
Thanks Stu and TD and Ted. I am beginning to piece everything together to come up with a plan. Stu, I have Calder's book and it has given me some info but not all I wanted. For instance, he discusses charging with a single alternater output and even two alternaters but he doesn't cover much about how to add an AC charger in the circuit. With a little more digging I'll figure it out. To me, and I'm sure to many others, this is the most challanging aspect of boat maintenance.
To quote Calder: "(W)hen batteries are paralleled, one dead cell in one battery can pull down all the bateries, potentially killing them. Additionally, small circulating currents between batteries increase their rate of self-discharge." For those reasons I would not 'hard-wire' batteries in parallel. It's OK to parallel them with a battery switch because, if a problem arises, you can un-parallel them. Calder goes on to say: "Where large-capacity battery banks are neeeded, it is preferable to use two high-capacity 6-volt batteries in series rather than two smaller capacity 12-volt batteries in parallel." So, Ron, I would reccomend replacing the two 12's in your house bank with 2 golf cart batteries ($45 ea at Sam's Club) keeping the same 200ah capacity. And if your shorepower charger has only one output then you need a combiner for it. Though I think the better option would be to get a new charger with multiple outputs. That let's the charger tailor the charge to each bank.
Ted
C34 Electrical Systems
Just a couple of comments on the previous few posts.
1. Battery combiners are wired between the battery banks, NOT "between the alternator/regulator and the battery banks."
They essentially take the place of the 1-2-B switch. The description below is from the West Marine Advisor at:
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/WestAdvisorDisplayView?advisor=464-465.htm (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/WestAdvisorDisplayView?advisor=464-465.htm)
*******************************************
How do I charge both banks simultaneously?
By isolating starting and house banks, you face a challenge trying to charge them from a single source like single-output chargers or alternators. If you violate the "separation" of the two banks, you face the probability of two dead batteries due to "operator brain-fade". That's why we are great believers in the West Marine Battery Combiner and Heart Pathmaker, Balmar Dual Output Alternators, and to a lesser degree, battery isolators. These products sense the voltage of the battery banks and connect the batteries together whenever one battery's voltage is elevated. Both banks charge simultaneously and remain combined until the voltage drops, whereupon they are disconnected from one another. It's much like having a very attentive engineer flip your battery parallel switch on and off at exactly the right moment. The result is maximum charging performance for two banks, and complete isolation of the two banks to ensure that you can start your engine.
Do I have to scrap my present switch?
While you don't have to, we strongly recommend the use of simple-to-understand OFF-ON switches. Shoot, even your brother-in-law can probably figure out how to operate an OFF-ON switch, but might be completely baffled by a OFF-1-BOTH-2 switch. Alternatively, you can use your current battery switch, plus a second OFF-ON switch, but we think it becomes complicated to understand what each switch combination accomplishes. As an added benefit, the fact that the battery switches are seldom, if ever, operated while underway greatly reduces the chances of damaging your alternator by accidentally opening its output circuit.
*****************************************
Battery isolators take up voltage, and shouldn't have to be used since they are way old technology. You could use the switch or a combiner FOR A SINGLE SOURCE OF CHARGING INPUT. But remember, it's ONLY because of "brain fade" in forgetting to switch the 1-2-B switch!!! If you can remeber to do that, you don't need a combiner or an echo charger! Islators are crazy: I ripped the iolators out of our boat when I first bought it. They drop between 0.6 to 1.0 volts. Why ever consider them?
I personally disagree with West's idea of the battery switches. I discussed this in the earlier referenced post with Kyle Ewing. If you can remember to switch the battery switch, why spend the money for extra switches? However, if you're redoing everything, it's not a bad idea for simplicity or if you're "switch-challenged." (more brain fade...) On our engine kill lever, I have a little Dymo label says; "2" - it reminds me to switch the battery switch if I start on our start battery #1. Once the engine is off, just use the house battery.
2. Reference to Calder's comments on paralleling batteries: Yes, he did say that. However, you need to take it in context because he also goes on to talk about large house banks, the complete text of which I've posted on this board at least twice. (Search on Calder, you should be able to find it.) Sure, a cell can go bad, which is what started this thread in the first place, but even Calder's answer is just take that battery out of the system. How can you ever build a large house bank without paralleling batteries? Also, two 6V batteries in series could have the same problem, or more than one battery in any bank, for that matter. The idea is to maintain your batteries with a reliable charging system.
3. "...discusses charging with a single alternator output and even two alternators but he doesn't cover much about how to add an AC charger in the circuit."
Ron, think of it this way: The charger and the alternator SHOULD NOT BE ON TOGETHER - ever. You don't add it INTO the circuit between the alternator and the bank, it is a separate source. Then the concept is simpler.
The shorepower charger, whether multiple or single outlet, charges the batteries when you're plugged in. The alternator charges when you're running the engine.
I think I understand your concern which is: "What happens when I use a multiple output shorepower charger IF I have installed a combiner to split the charge from the alternator? Won't the combiner combine when the multiple shorepower charger is on? Will this harm the system?" You could install a shutoff switch on the combiner for when you are using the shorepower charger, but this adds complexity and another switch, which is what you are trying the AVOID in the first place! BTW, the combiner literature does cover this and includes the idea for the switch.
Go back to my discussion above.
You have two choices: use only one output from the charger to the house bank, wire the alternator to the house bank, too, and use the combiner or get an Echo Charger. The advantage of the echo charger over the combiner is that you won't overcharge your starting battery. One of our electrical guru's was recently cruising in the Abacos and found that the combiner overcharged his start battery when motoring for enough time to replenish his house bank. That's why the echo charger is better, since the start bank is almost always full.
4. "Many do not motor nearly long enough to fully charge the their battery banks so most of the work is done at dock side by the AC charger. For these folks a good charger is well worth the extra expense."
That's correct. IF you still have the original internally regulated OEM alternator and you don't have an external regulator for your alternator. We've also discussed this in great length. Do a find on alternators, regulators, etc. Also, Calder explains this in detail in his book. Automotive regulation just doesn't work for boats, which is why many of us are still so disappointed that boat manufacturers continue to produce electrical systems that are prone to immediate failure right out of the box. Geez, two lousy small batteries, with plasma screen TVs, refrigeration, lights galore. It boggles the mind, and makes these discussions necessary. Welcome, but necessary. This is a fascinating topic.
Just to summarize: as we've said before ONLY YOU can determine how you plan to use your boat. If you're plugged into marinas (your choice) much of this "how do I charge with my alternator?" is absolutely meaningless to you. However, if you like to be out and away from it all for extended periods, AND you don't want to use the 1-2-B switch to manually parallel your charging from single sources like alternators and solar, then you get involved in combiners and echo chargers. It CAN all be done manually, too, don't forget.
Last, but NOT least, IN ANY EVENT, get a darned good charger, which, in our (C34) combined experience, is the Statpower Xantrex 20 or 40, or a Trace or Heart combined inverter charger. If you don't you'll end up spending $$ on replacing batteries. Why not keep the batteries and get an instant return on investment with a quality three stage charger. This applies to any kind of use of the boat.
Stu
PS Ron, a representative wiring diagram is on the Projects page: http://kindred-spirit.net/upgrades/wirediagram.html (http://kindred-spirit.net/upgrades/wirediagram.html)
It has a combined inverter charger with a combiner. You'll not that the alternator and the charger are wired to the house bank. If you sketch it out for your boat, it may help you figure this out.
Stu, my error. I was mixing the concept of an isolator with a combiner. An isolator sits between batteries and the regulator but, as pointed out, a combiner does not. This is one of the reasons I like this message board, bad information usually gets caught and corrected.
I do have an alternative view on larger alternators and external regulators, because no matter the alternator, you still have to run the auxiliary. My idea of getting away from it all includes, kerosene lamp, no TV, no stereo, a good book and lots of sailing. The stock 50A alternator, an external regulator and a Statpower Xantrex 20 (for when I get home) work just fine. My choice. :)
td
Thanks Stu,
Your last post has cleared up a lot of questions for me. That isn't to say that I won't be back with more; for now I have it pretty straight in my mind. Al's wiring diagram is just about what I diagramed for myself previously but it helps my confidence to hear it from someone who has been down the path before me.
TD: I wholeheartedly agree with you. In fact, we still have the OEM alternator! Would you believe that? We also have an old AutoMac regulator. That gives me external manual control over the alternator, so I can get a little more out of it than with just the internal regulator. So, because of the way we use our boat, and my energy budget and house battery bank of 315 AH, I know how far I can go. We've been out for four days without having to recharge, with our chosen necessities all operable. I just plug in to shorepower a day before we leave on any extended cruise. We do not keep the boat plugged in all the time, using an 11 watt solar panel to offset the self discharge of the wet cells. Rushing to put in a higher output alternator is not necessarily a requirement, but is, as you say, a choice, and based on how you use your boat. In the near future I plan to replace the old alternator (it has been going for over 18 years!) with a 75 to 90 [no bigger] with external regulation. I just reinstalled my kerosene lantern (next week we'll switch to lamp oil since the wick needs to be replaced), and we're very careful about energy. I haven't installed my (four year old) Link 2000 (yet) because I can tell you at any given time what the amp hours are from my budget and doing the math in my head (not the wc!). KISS is a great idea. Am I guessing that when you said "The stock 50A alternator, an external regulator and a Statpower Xantrex 20..." you meant INTERNAL regulator with the stock alternator?
Ron: Please keep asking, that's what we're here for, and hope we're not confusing things too much by giving you all the options. Just like life, there isn't only ONE right way to do it. Aren't choices great?
Stu
PS just a reminder if you haven't seen it already in previous posts, take a look at www.amplepower.com (http://www.amplepower.com) for the Ample Power Primer. Very good info on batteries and charging.
[This message was edited by Stu Jackson #224 1986 "Aquavite" on November 30, 2003 at 12:17 PM.]
TD and Stu,
Could you expand a little bit more on your stock alternators with external regulators? I did a little checking yesterday and found the amplepower web site. It was very informative, but after looking at their price list, I figured I could ruin batteries for 30 years or more before it would pay for itself. We have a fridge, but it's not on unless we're motoring and the beer isn't cold yet. Other than that, our power use is pretty low, as we've been accustom to smaller boats with a single house battery for years.
I'm interested in getting more out of my stock alternator though, if the price is right.
Alternators
Ray
It is rare for people to change their stock alternators to externally regulated. Part of the reason is that external regulators will "work" the alternator much harder, especially if the battery bank is low, which is, of course, when you need the power the most. The OEM alternators are not as good running full bore, or hot, as are the newer replacement alternators. I believe Ample discusses this on their website. It's not in the Primer, but should be under the section on regulators in manuals or equipment.
You will NOT be able to get anything more out of your stock alternator as currently wired and regulated.
Re the cost of replacement alternators, you may want to check out www.jackrabbitmarine.com (http://www.jackrabbitmarine.com). They sell Ample alternators for less than Ample does, I think.
In one of my earlier posts on alternators, I asked if the original OEM 55 A Motorolas could be rewired to have external regulation (see references below). The reason I asked was because I was helping a friend who had an external regulator, but hadn't bought a new alternator and he was interested in trying that. The answer was yes, but because of the issues discussed above we decided not to do that. He eventually bought a Balmar 912-75 and we installed it and the regulator together. He did have to shave down the bracket to get the fan blades on the Balmar to fit. The Ample alternators do not have the fan blades on the forward face, they look just like the old Motorolas, so the bracket does not need to be shaved.
Having not heard back from TD, I still am assuming he did mean internal, not external regulation on his OEM alternator from my post yesterday.
It's not so much about ruining batteries, but simply giving them a charge when you need it when you are not plugged into shorepower. The OEMs with internal regulation just won't give you a decent charge even if you run them for hours. By decent, I mean full, and three stage (efficient, and good for the batteries).
Just check the voltage output at the batteries, they're simply like tapering chargers, which don't provide the correct three stage charge. They're under voltage (13.8 if you're lucky), and very low on amperage once the batteries start to accept the charge. That's why we refer to them as automotive. I think that concept was covered by Ample, and West Marine's Advisors also give a reasonably good description. The best description is in Calder's Boatowner's Manual.
Again, though, with a low load as you describe, and the way you use your boat, unless you depend on your alternator to provide you with charging, you can live with it. It's not ruining your batteries, but isn't doing them much good either because they're not being charged properly when you're running your engine. It would ruin your batteries eventually if the ONLY source of input was your alternator.
But if they're being charged properly by a three stage shorepower charger, then they're in good shape and don't need much, if anything from the OEM alternator, so it's not putting out much because it doesn't have to when you run your engine.
Keeping your loads to a minimum certainly helps. Do a FIND on "batteries and the fridge." Seems like you and I use our fridges in the same way, while some folks keep them on all the time.
Stu
Some earlier references:
http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=238600304&r=171603304#171603304 (http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=238600304&r=171603304#171603304)
http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=854606703 (http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=854606703)
http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=671604581 (http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=671604581)
The post about the external regulation on the OEM Motorola is:
http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=933602911 (http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=933602911)
[This message was edited by Stu Jackson #224 1986 "Aquavite" on December 01, 2003 at 12:07 PM.]
Thanx to the previous owner we have a stock alternator and an external Ample "Deep Cycle" 3 stage regulator. This was duly noted in the boat's prepurchase survey. Based on the PO's notes and logs, the regulator was installed in February of 1992. I eye the whole setup wearily every time I am "under the hood" but so far so good. It will be time to go to a 75a high output alternator, etc. at some point in the not to distant future; not because we need the extra capacity but because the current alternator is getting very long in the tooth. But first a new 150 jib...
td
TD
I should have remmbered from the earlier posts that you had had the external regulator installed on your OEM.
Glad to hear it is working. What's your house bank capacity?
Stu
TD,
When you decide to upgrade alternators, you really should consider the setup that Rodd Collins describes in the C36 website. I followed his advice and purchased a LeeceNeville 90A alternator this past spring for about $225, and it was a direct replacement. No shaving brackets, no changing belts, no worries. The "smart" regulator I installed back in 92? 93? works wonderfully with it. It's great to see a steady 70-80 amps going into the house bank at cruising RPM's. Just my humble opinion.
Tom,
Did you have your smart regulator hooked up to the original alternator before you bought the new LeeceNeville?
Do the new hi-output alternators act like an automotive alternator without a smart regulator, or do they come with a fancy-smancy regulator?
Ray,
Yes, I did have the smart regulator hooked up to the original alternator for the past 9-10 years. It worked fine, but under optimum conditions it would only put out 40-45 amps. Rodd Collins article tells that the LeeceNeville come with a standard automotive regulator. You have to ask for an external regulation plate. From there it is easy to hook up your favorite smart regulator. Here's the link to the article:
http://www.catalina36.org/Article_alternator-battery.htm (http://www.catalina36.org/Article_alternator-battery.htm)
C36
Tom
Thanks so much for the reference to Rodd's great writeup.
We've always been proponents of the fact that our C34s and C36s have the same systems, and appreciate any and all "cross fertilization."
Thanks again,
Stu
PS
Ray
All the new alternators are externally regulated. You need to get a separate regulator, including the referenced C36 arrangement.
Please note that this an OLD thread, but the CONCEPTS are still valid. Stu --- July 2010