After paying the price for my raw water pump leaking and rusting out my oil pan, I replaced both the pump and oil pan. At the same time I attempted to replace the old motor mounts with four K75 motor mounts. After finding out I did not have enough horizontal movement to align the drive shaft to 0.003 I had about 0.008 port side I attempted to waller out the holes in the mounts leaving very little meat left, I could only get it down to about 0.005 and still have vibrations in the cockpit floor over 1400 RPM.
Question: am I not better just sucking it up and buying the original very well slotted mounts for $201.00 each plus shipping then going through Epoxying in the old holes and drilling new ones and yet still having no real horizontal adjustment. Anyone else tackled this problem and went back to the old mounts? Thanks.
George
George : You're the FIRST person with a M25XP engine in a C34 (1987? I'll guess?) that can't get the mounts in place to allow engine alignment!??!
Are you using the correct holes in the engine mount brackets??
Please send a picture
A thought
Thank you Ron for getting back to me on this. If it's not raining today I'm going to take another wack at this and I will take some pictures. Are you pointing out that the K75 mounts the holes are not straight Accross from each other? I notice that and attempted to align them straight along and parallel to both the engine and the ledge of the mounting surface. But I must admit you triggered in me the possible thought I have something wrong and I better take a new look and make sure I'm not missing something. I'm getting really good at jacking up the engine lol. Yes 1987. I must be in the correct engine bracket holes to be so close to being aligned. Yet as said above your words have triggered me to give a closer inspection if I'm not missing something.
George : As I recall there are two holes in the engine bracket for an engine mount !! Just want to make sure that you are using the correct holes!!
A thought
Hi Ron
Went to the boat today, jacked up the engine and went to each mount and made sure that it had the best alignment possible with the existing lag bolt holes. Upon dropping the motor back down still the same problem. On the port side it does not matter what I attempt to do with little to no gap at 12 noon, 3 or 6 o'clock I'm between 0.005 and 0.006 at 9 pm. I can find no adjustment that changes this except a few thousands more open. I also turn the flange and all bolt holes open to about 0.005 at 9 pm. Any thoughts, am I still missing something? I don't know how to add pictures yet, but I'll try. Also in a few days I will test my boat and see where my efforts landed me. No worries, if it's still way off I will shoot myself.
Posting and RESIZING Photos 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3701.0.html
iPhone Photo Flipping 101 https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,11199.0.html
Thank you for pointing out how I may find away to post pictures. I must admit I'm a little beat to figure it out tonight but again thank you for your effort to help me.
George
George,
Took me a while to figure out that resizing photos makes posting them MUCH easier. Seems our phones take nice BIG photos (size wise) but reducing them way down doesn't hurt one bit. I use a separate app on my phone to accomplish this for this site only and while it's another step to do it, the process isn't terrible and those photos really help.
FYI, I also have the M25XP and replaced the mounts with K75's a few years back and they will work. Seems you've probably run into that 1 out of 100 that really have to struggle to make it work. (congratulations are probably not in order...I'll skip that part) :D
On another FYI, one of my bolts on the front starboard mount was broken off about 1/2" inside the engine bed so after I'd enlarged the hole big enough to extract the broken bolt I then whittled down and epoxied a piece of teak in there and then re-drilled it. Simple fix and it has worked for three years.....that might be something you try if in the end you find the mounting holes are just too far to one side.
Thanks for the response Eric.
In a sense I'm very fortunate that my lag bolt spots are in very good shape and just for good measure I was able to get bolts about a 1/2" longer at a bolt house in Los Angeles so I'm holding tight. Just for information to anyone doing this job. At harbor freight I purchased for another job a 3/8" ratchet that is triple jointed. This ratchet makes all the difference in the world, that and both standard and deep 9/16" sockets go a long way into making this job a little easier. I just spent $10,000 on new canvas for the dodger plus an added Bimini hand rail covers, covers for everything. If it was not for these guys working on my boat today I would take her out for a test run. If I get her out on Friday or Saturday and I still get the vibration, a rubbing sound (not good) I think I may put an end to this torture, and go back to the original style of motor mounts, which are definitely extremely slotted for some horizontal movement. For now I'll just keep on praying. I've gone as far as leaving all the lag bolt loose just a little and then attempting to use a 4 foot prybar to align the motor to the prop shaft. I have noticed that the motor mount mounting holes do not run parallel to the mounting surface. They're all just a little bit out here and there. Thanks again.
Ron
Hopefully I'm successful and post a few pictures. Notice the nuts missing in the front mounts. Dang if one nut just rolled into the front drain hole to the bilge. The other is now a sample for a new nut. Oh well! I will attempt to get 4 extra nuts to lock nuts together then mark if successful.
QuoteOn the port side it does not matter what I attempt to do with little to no gap at 12 noon, 3 or 6 o'clock I'm between 0.005 and 0.006 at 9 pm. I can find no adjustment that changes this except a few thousands more open. I also turn the flange and all bolt holes open to about 0.005 at 9 pm. Any thoughts, am I still missing something? I don't know how to add pictures yet, but I'll try. Also in a few days I will test my boat and see where my efforts landed me. No worries, if it's still way off I will shoot myself.
Shooting yourself won't help with the alignment. :D
It does take a lot of patience.
It's always easy for me to get it close, but then getting it just right can be very evasive. One thing that comes to me is, what is the condition of your cutlass bearing? If it's not tight the rotation of the shaft will not repeat. ie, As one end of the shaft moves up, down and sideways the other end follows. I think it's impossible to get a proper alignment with a worn cutlass bearing.
Jim
Thanks for the response Jim, at this point I will not rule out anything. Everything was fine till I neglected a sea water leak on my raw water pump before going into surgery. Once out it had rusted a bleeding hole in my oil pan. I changed my water pump, oil pan and now motor mounts. Outside of that I did not seem to have an alignment problem before I changed out the mounts, just typical stair vibration here and there.
George : Are you in the water or on the Hard - because that can make alot of difference.
If on the hard you need to realign the engine after the boat is back in the water and let the hull warp back into shape for 2 days!! That way you get a true alignment!!
A few thoughts
A great question, being new to boating/sailing only 4 years now I do not think about these things so I'm glad people like you do. I am in the water, getting in late this afternoon I had a chance to run the motor in gear both forward and reverse against the dock lines. I only went up to 1200 RPM in fear I may tear off a cleat. At this point, there was absolutely no vibration and I took the risk of jumping downstairs to the back cabin and things looked OK. Tomorrow I will take her on a little sea trial and see how that goes. I still have the 5 to 6000s off but I do feel up and down. I'm better aligned to the prop shaft. I have worked as an electrical contractor all my life mostly with machine installations and repairs, but must admit boats are New World but things do work the same. I appreciate everyone's feedback I must admit I'm hoping for a miracle lol do you know you just take it out and it works.
My sea trial for my shaft alignment failed today. Between 800 and 1500 RPM really good, could motor at 4.8 knots. 1600 RPM and above the return of the heavy vibration. The vibration from behind the steering wheel under my right foot and along the starboard aft wall. I went below made sure Nothing was just rattling. I open the aft locker and made sure nothing there was just loose and rattling. Because I can get
12, 3, and 6 PM under 0.003 and 9 PM is like 0.007 or 8 on the shaft flange I made the decision today to suck it up and purchase the original style of motor mounts with the large slots to bring my alignment into tolerance. I hope I do not have cutlass bearing problems but in the end the original expensive motor mounts took my boat 37 years and about 2000 hours. So it's one more time hoisting the motor and R and R the mounts. I just feel I must do something different to get a different result. I want to thank everyone got your thoughts and insights. I will post in about two weeks when I Had a chance to complete this job.
I have been meaning to post, share some pictures of some of my upgrades with all here. Basically rewired my boat with all victron chargers and Bluetooth devices, radar and a complete windlass install with forward and aft controls. Thanks Stu for your wiring diagram here, I went with it and added my own twist.
This is a random thought...but are you sure your shaft is straight? You might also consider buying a flexible coupler. I have a Vetus Bullflex coupler and it works well.
Thank you Noah for your pointer, I did think about that option, although a good one yet I may still be on the edge for some reason. Maybe my boat was one that was drilled just enough off to still work but not close enough for the K75's. Outside of that my wife is getting ready to beat me over the head, I'm in the process of getting all new canvas, both dodger and Bimini plus a stack pack, a pretty penny. Now spending more money on motor mounts I'm just going to slip down to the boat tail between my legs get her up and working take the wife for a little trip to remind her why we do this Lol. If the flexible coupling was not enough I would have to eat crow twice with the wife. I feel I own a brand new 1987 mark 1, I love everything about the boat and can find no reason short of crossing oceans to upgrade so I went all in during the
Last 4 years.
Just a follow up on my motor mounts. Although the K75s have worked on many boats and have been a great choice for others here are some precautions to take before making the choice to go with these cost effective motor mounts K75's. Look at your original factory motor mounts at the large slotted bases. The K75s have no horizontal adjustment built in. I did not look at that. So after installing the K75s and a lot of frustration during the motor alignment and my boat being outside the tolerance of 0.003 mine was at 6 to
0.008 with no adjustment available for horizontal I had to remove the mounts and pay over $800.00 for the factory original. Then Hell yea! Oh my God it was great like a new boat, no vibration even over 2000 RPM accept of course lazarette, padlocks, and a few other loose objects, yet the boat was fantastic. Cannot tell you how good that felt after the big trouble it all was. I actually had to put my motor mounts in with my engine, cockeyed, totally cockeyed. And yet in this cockeyed position, my greatest opening on the flange was that 3 o'clock and about 2000s. So look at your original motor mounts and if you look like you don't need horizontal adjustment go with the K75s and save some good hard earned money. But if your bolts are way sideways in the original mounts, think about sticking with the original. My boat maybe one and 100 but it was a journey. Excuse any typos I'm doing this on my iPhone I almost need a microscope to see it lol I just wanted to pass it all along. And everybody thank you for your help and guidance.
Quote from: SV Sand Pebble on January 12, 2024, 07:05:00 PM
Just a follow up on my motor mounts. I actually had to put my motor mounts in with my engine, cockeyed, totally cockeyed. And yet in this cockeyed position, my greatest opening on the flange was that 3 o'clock and about 2000s. So look at your original motor mounts
Are you thinking your engine bed was installed not "square" fore and aft with the centerline of the boat and its running gear (shaft log, strut, etc.)? Or, am I confused?
I expoxied some small dowels in the original hole and redrilled without moving the engine. It was over 12 years ago, so I don't remember the whole project.
Craig
Thanks SV Sand Pebble, great advice on checking the horizontal requirements. For future reference where did you buy them, what is the engine isolator mount brand, and what part numbers did you end up using? Thanks for the help.
Hi Jon and all.
I noticed after my install that with my new universal factory slotted motor mounts that the back end of my motor was swung as far to starboard in the motor mount slots as I could go and as far port with the front of the motor in the front motor mounts. I think the original motor mounts must of been placed by a helper or someone with little attention to the future.
Quote from: SV Sand Pebble on January 13, 2024, 10:58:08 AM
Hi Jon and all.
I noticed after my install that with my new universal factory slotted motor mounts that the back end of my motor was swung as far to starboard in the motor mount slots as I could go and as far port with the front of the motor in the front motor mounts. I think the original motor mounts must of been placed by a helper or someone with little attention to the future.
Were the original holes drilled in the oak stingers located on centerline of the stringers or drilled "cockeyed"?
Jon
These were the mounts from Catalina direct. Mine was drilled cockeyed.
Noah
Yes my holes were drilled and are cockeyed. There's more than one way to skin a cat and I guess this job could've been approached a few different ways, and may be ways that could save money. In the end, I was a little frustrated. I was so glad to move past this job to the many other jobs I plan on accomplishing.
George : Sorry to hear that "Paco" drilled your engine mount holes cockeyed!! Glad to hear you finally got the problem solved
It was so many years ago - that I may have elongated the K75 holes to get a good fit and front engine alignment?? Anyway, my new M25XPB engine essentially used the same old holes . I did have to cut down the height of the oak stringers to attain engine alignment. My flexible coupling took up any slight misalignment.
A few thoughts
Yes there is always more then one way to get a job done. Sometimes I forget just how great a resource this forum is for all of us and I'm very grateful to all who has posted in the past, present and the future. I hope to add my own small contributions in the days and years ahead. I totally love my Catalina 34, I solo sail a lot. I find it just the right size to solo sail, sail with a friend or the wife and also to take up to six for a day sail. For its size it's very cost worthy to own for your average man. And for a boat that spends 90 percent of the time in the slip it offers a small condo for a beach house for those like myself who could never afford a beach house. It's the best kept secret capable of transforming a man or woman with an adventurous heart.
I love the expression " Am I fixing my boat or is my boat fixing ME. Speaking as a man with three knee replacements (a recall) and 3 ankle reconstructions, it has been my boat fixing me, mind body and spirit.
Quote from: SV Sand Pebble on January 13, 2024, 11:23:46 AM
These were the mounts from Catalina Direct. Mine was drilled cockeyed.
George
Those engine isolators (I won't even get into the modern bastardization of the terms "engine" vs "motor") are directly out of Westerbeke parts bins and there's no question in my mind that what you received was typical (for these days) Westerbeke crap. They had sold me so many bad parts over what were the final 10 years (before I gave up supplying Wb parts as a Wb dealer.) I've had to return probably a dozen parts, ranging from $50 to $200 because they were defective in manufacturing or finishing. I could show photos of nightmare drilling, threading, tapping, etc., that would make anyone's blood boil. The last instance was an exhaust flange that was so poorly threaded that a nipple couldn't screw in -- I had to get one at a different Wb distributor (who told me I was crazy and didn't know what the h*ll I was talking about -- until I challenged him to go right then and pull the flanges in stock, and take them out of the bags/inspect them. I was lucky and was able to claim the only good flange out of 5 in his stock (with an apology from the distributor.)) I gave up -- between covering the shipping costs from customers back to Wb, replacements shipped to me, then shipped to customers (Wb would not cover any s/h cost and would not drop ship to the customer) it was a losing proposition to supply parts.
At the time my stocking distributor relinquished the distributorship because of the junk replacement parts!!
Ken-either you or me are confused. It is my understanding the there was nothing wrong with his WB mounts nor his K75s. I take was that his holes were drilled "cockeyed" or off center in the boat's stringers. The K75 did not have to horizontal elongated hole to compensate for to off center holes. So, he bought the WB ones that have a slotted foot so he could adjust for the problem of the off center hole placement in the stringer by sliding the mounts horizontally.
At least that is how I understood his problem and solution to be. I could be wrong?
"These were the mounts from Catalina direct. Mine was drilled cockeyed."
Noah,
I took "mine" as "the ones I received."
Good chance that I misinterpreted that?
I had similar issues after having a new shaft, coupler and cutless bearing installed. I shared a video on this forum and the consensus was that I needed new mounts. I installed K75 & K50 mounts and saw some improvement but still had significant vibration had higher RPMs.
Someone pointed out that the torque from the running engine is going to change the alignment so you really need to make fine adjustments while the engine is running.
I secured the boat in the slip and marked each nut with nail polish so I could easily count turns. I had a friend put the boat in gear and bring it up to 1500 RPM and observed the vibration. He would then go to idle/neutral a I would make small adjustments.
I got very lucky in that after moving the front mounts up a few turns there was a dramatic improvement. I locked them in without thinking that I should have continued in the same direction and "centered" alignment, but I'm still very happy with the results.
If you someone who can assist you, this isn't much work and might solve your problem. I realize this only gets you vertical alignment, but I think it's worth a shot. Good luck.
Thanks for your input. In my case the problem was solved by going back to the universal motor mounts offering horizontal movement. I'm happy things worked well for you. Mine is very good now.
Yes Noah that's right my original universal mounts were drilled cockeyed so my solution was to pull the K75 mounts and buy and install universal mounts in which right away worked for me awesomely. My boat is done and back at sea when I please. My alignment seems perfect