Engine Mounts, Engine Bed

[Roger Rathbun]

This project started with simply haul the boat, paint, polish, and do maintenance on PSS seal. Many problems ensued. I sought help with the cutlass bearing in another post:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8074.0.html

I'm now on to engine bed problems. After installing shaft, shaft coupling, and cutless it was apparent that alignment was way off (I know, I'm still on hard).
The engine mounts badly need replacement (installed by FO). Five of the Lag screws were striped (would never tighten). One was broken off in the hole in the bed. When the FO installed these mounts, he had to raise then with 3/8" aluminum plates and probably reused the original lag screws which therefore did not go deep enough. These are stainless 3/8 by 2&1/2 inches (or 2&1/4).
I'm planing on using R&D model 800-040 (5/8" stud) and I think I still need to use the aluminum plates:
http://pyiinc.com/index.php?section=rd_marine&action=engine-mounts-drawings&sn=2

Pic 1897:



The lag screw in the foreground is one of the eight holding down the mounts. The next one in is the broken one. The third is 3/8 by 4 inches which I hope to use when replacing the mounts to get much more 'bite'. (maybe 3&1/2" on the back (aft) two bolts)

Question B1: How deep to the wood blocks go that are bonded inside the engine beds? Do they go right down to the hull? That would be nice.

Question B2: I have considered going up to 1/2" lags but they are huge and might severely restrict the lateral adjustment when aligning. I know many use epoxy to improve the holes but I,m not quite sure how to do that. I don't think you just fill the hole and re drill. Do you insert thin shavings or strips with fresh epoxy, put in the screw and let it cure. Does subsequent loosening/tightening for alignment still have good bite?

Question B3: Any ideas on how to get out the broken piece of lag screw?

My plan at present is to build a frame that sits on the cabin top, lift the motor high enough to fix the holes, put on the new mounts and lower and reconnect. I have a new hump hose, and may replace the exhaust riser.

Question B4: Anyone know, if I actually hauled the motor, is it possible to replace the oil pan with a new one with the oil drain fitting at the back (AFT) of the pan instead of the front for improved oil changes? My banjo fitting actually has a very small leak (always feels wet with oil but very few drips.

I'll add some replies with pics of the present mounts.

[Roger Rathbun]

Pic 1883: My current mounts. This is AFT Starboard.
I think they might actually be the Vetus ones so many of you like. Aquadrive is a completely different drive train system that doesn't apply for our boats. Maybe that's where the FO or his yard got the mounts. I think they are way too loose as well as just SHOT!

[Roger Rathbun]

Pic 1887: FWD PORT.

[Roger Rathbun]

Pic 1888: FWD STARBOARD The real baddy. The broken bolt was the front bolt on this one. (Easy to get to!)
I previously had a slow leak from the water pump weep hole which caused some corrosion here and at corner of oil pan. I put on a new pump (rebuild did not work), cleaned up some surface rust, sprayed some Universal paint colour, but the mount looked cruddy. Oil pan was not seriously damaged.

[Ron Hill]

Roger : I surly hope that all of the stuff that you are fixing can up on the survey?!!?  The present engine mounts appear to be Vetus can't tell if they are 50s or 75s??    Your Questions:

1. To get the correct answer you need to call Catalina Jerry Douglas (the designer).  I do know that the encapsulated wood in the gelcoat covered engine rails is Oak!  When I installed a new engine I used longer lag-bolts and had no problem.  I'll guess that the oak goes down about 8 maybe 10 or more inches?
2. I don't think that 1/2" diameter lag-bolts are necessary.  It sounds that you might just need to remove the engine, not use the aluminum plates and mount the engine mounts on the bed rails (if you can get that broken lag out?).
4. I don't believe that the oil pan from a M25XPB will fit on an M25XP engine.  Call Joe Joyce at Westerbeke.  
What you can do is modify the oil pan you have.  Fill the existing hole with a plug and drill&tap a new hole in the bottom rear. The hose on you oil drain "banjo" fitting is a 3/8" fuel hose - easily replaced.

3. If you can't get the broken lag out - You might think about cutting down the engine bed rails about 1/2", epoxying the exposed oak, mounting the long piece of aluminum rail (the size of the top of the rails), and mounting the mounts to it. Then lag bolting the aluminum rail to the oak rails.

An Easy Out may or may-not be an option.  You haven't mentioned how deep the lag is broken off nor can you get a drill to make a hole in that broken lag??? 

A few thoughts

[Roland Gendreau]

You may be able to address removing the broken lag without hoisting the engine if you unbolt the bracket that secures the engine to the mount to get more clearance. I installed my new Vetus mounts without hoisting the engine, by removing the mounts' threaded rods, sliding the mount under the engine bracket and then reinstalling the threaded rod. Instructions for doing this procedure are on this site.  If you are going to remove the oil pan, then you can ignore this suggestion.

As for removing the broken lag, you could try using an easy out.

[Ken Juul]

Looks like a very clean break, but hard to tell from the picture.  Are you sure the bolt is broken and not just shortened.

[Roger Rathbun]

Yes Ken it definitely broke off and left about the bottom 7/8" of the lag in the hole. It is only down about 1&1/8" and I can see it clearly. (the motor came out yesterday). The original lag was 2&1/2": the 7/8"broken piece , down the hole 1&1/8" plus the 3/8" alum. spacer and the engine mount (see pic 1887 above); all totals approx 2&1/2".
I have been using a 'greenstone' grinding bit (carbide I think) in a dremel tool to try to flatten the top of the broken piece down in the hole. It was definitely pointed since the part of the lag which came out is concave at the break. Pic #1897 doesn't show that real well on the broken bolt.
I'm making some progress since I can see the flat shiny surface of the bolt end getting larger (maybe up to almost 3/16"). I still feel it's a faint hope to try to drill a 5/64' hole (cobalt bit) centered on the flat surface I get on the end of that broken piece of stainless 3/8" lag bolt! I'm then supposed to use a #1 spiral screw extractor.
OR drill a 7/64" hole and use a # 2 extractor. That's an almost a 1/4" hole in the end of the threaded section of a 3/8" lag which itself isn't much more than 1/4" !
I'm carrying on with this today and will report back. The bolt in question is the fwd bolt on the starboard forward engine mount. The fallback plan might be to simply cut a 5/8" wide chunk from the front of the engine bed (rail?) back around the entire bolt hole and chisel it out, then repair it all with epoxy.

Ron thanks for all your suggestions. I'll get back with more when I have more details.
Joe Joyce did confirm the new oil pans (M25XPB) do not fit M25XP; diff bolt patterns. The mechanic will investigate brazing in a new drain fitting at back of pan.

More post/questions coming.

[Craig Illman]

Another alternative, take a deep hole saw and drill "around" the broken off lag screw. Pry out the resultant "plug". Then "pot" the hole with epoxy and re-drill? (Not that I have any experience with this solution).

[Roger Rathbun]

Thanks Craig. I did think of that but they don't seem to make hole saws smaller than 5/8". I think 1/2" would be about right with an inside diameter of 3/8+" to just fit over the broken 3/8" piece. I may try to make up something out of a piece of pipe.

[Roger Rathbun]

Hey guys:
I got my fractions wrong in Reply #7!  7/64 ths is just under 1/8" not 1/4". Became clear to me as I was pulling the bit out of the index. That was after I BROKE the 5/64" bit (as expected).

[Indian Falls]

If you put Vetus mounts under the engine as many of us have, you'll have room to put an "adapter plate" under the forward stbd engine mount.   A piece of 1/8'' ss plate using a counter sunk screw up through the forward hole of the mount with a nut, would fix the plate to the mount, the plate would extend forward of the mount enough to put a lag screw through it into fresh wood, the rear lag screw would just go into the original hole.  This would eliminate the need to remove the broken screw.  It would be plenty good enough to hold that mount in place.  I would not be cutting into the bed or shaving it down or any of that incredibly labor intense solution in a boat of this age. 
If that plate is not enough to hold that mount when the boat is upside down... so what?!  If you went upside down you got bigger problems anyway.

[Stu Jackson]

Dan, that's a very creative and useful idea.  Good one!    And relatively simple to do.  Over the years those lag bolt holes get really worn, and even using one new one should work if the rear one is still OK.  Another idea would be employ that idea for BOTH holes, fore & aft.

You can make a template to determine the height of the existing engine mount position, so that when you slip the plate underneath the new mount you can get it back to close to its original position to minimize the effort required to realign the engine and shaft.

[Roger Rathbun]

IT'S OUT !!!!
I finally have the broken piece of lag bolt out. My attempts with the screw extractor were a failure. After 'flattening' the top with a grinding stone somewhat, I managed to drill into the broken piece with a 7/64" cobalt bit (more new tools) about 3/16" (very hard drilling). Not enough to get the extractor to bite. Trying to drill a bit deeper, the bit slid off and my small hole was ruined.
PLAN B
Use a 1" hole saw to take out a plug and the broken piece. Success!
I had to build a jig since the pilot bit in the hole saw mandrill doesn't work in mid air (the original lag bolt hole). So, drilled through some plywood using the hole saw with the pilot bit in, then affix the plywood as a jig right over the engine bed hole with the broken piece. This allowed me to use the jig as a guide to get the hole saw (without pilot bit) started in the fiberglass. When down far enough, remove the jig and carry on.

Pics:
1993:   jig upside down
2001    part way in, jig still in place. remove jig later and drill further
2006    look at the sucker!

[Roger Rathbun]

Using the jig and hole saw without the pilot bit, partway into the engine bed.